wats the big deal about jets ?

[windtalker]

can sooeone please tell me why airlines insist on jet time while turboprop time does not count, like we r children of a lesser god.?

[drive a bus]

I do agree with 7p3i7lot. There is no big deal to fly a jet. I flew a turboprob before driving my bus and felt, that it is a piece of cake doing it. Of course a jet is heavier, faster .... , but the turboprop is more demanding, flying wise, preplanning wise (icing, bad weather). I know guys feeling more comfortable to fly with colleagues having a turboprob background.

[trytofly]

Rudev

Turbo prop jocks are certainly not children of lesser Gods.

I'm afraid the only answer to your question has been very well put by 7p3i7lot. Read this answer carefully and wonder no more.
If it is jet job you look for I wish you all the luck. It will come.


ps...been there..I know what you mean.

[ssg]

Had a nice dinner with a real idiot ex airline captain.

At one time he claimed he would only hire guys with L1011 time. I asked why, because he thought it was a systems heavy aircraft and the type was tough.

Keep in mind many pilots in the airlines have never flown anything less then jets. Deice, lack of power, lack of radar etc, has never been and issue with these guys. And not surprisingly some of the stupidist accidents out there are due to reasons that lesser aircraft pilots would probably never due.

Jets are harder to fly then other aircraft for a few reasons. The are faster. If I gave the typical turboprop captain hold instructions from 3 miles away, doing 400kts, he might be a little overwhelmed at first. You have to be way more ahead of the aircraft. You have more weight, takeoffs and landings are more critical. Most turboprop pilots can't explain what balanced field, V2 or what thier aircraft would do climb gradient wise. You don't have Paine Stewart type pressuriztion issues in turboprops flying at FL240.

On the other hand.....sitting in the soup, picking up ice, lack of serious power to get over hills and weather, tends to make the turbine guys proficient in that regard. As well they spend more time in the air for the same trip, they have less equipment on board and hence rely less on just putting the throttles forward to get out of trouble.

I have never thought the equipment made the pilot, so I would hire any pilot flying any equipment that knew what he was doing. Give me a pilot that has flown by himself in the soup with lousy, underpowered equipment, year after year.

[beamer]

Jets over props - simple.

The longer you fly on props the worse your hearing gets - sorry, pardon..............

Oh yes, with exceptions, you can fly over most of the weather rather than through it or around it.

In respect of jobs applications - jet time usually wins because it means you have already progressed further up the ladder already. Its a little like having a military background rather than
a instructing/crop dusting/air taxi history. It does not guarantee the military guy will be the better choice but it does mean that he has undergone selection, professional training and has a certain
level of experience - the same is not always true of the candidate from the other side of the fence. To use a crude comparison - imagine a Formula One team in search of a new driver from the US - would you choose an Indycar driver or a NASCAR driver - both race cars but one is more likely to make a smooth transition than the other - there are always exceptions (Michael Andretti) but the odds look more favourable to the hiring team. If you run a small fleet of say A320's - who is more lilkely to pass your course - an F16 man, a pilot with a thousand hours on a Learjet or a self-improver with a million hours of 152's and a year on an Aztec - no guarantees but the odds will favour two of the three !

Now that Saddam has been caught, maybe just maybe, things will begin to look up - only surprised that Blair did not claim personal responsibility for the capture !!!!

[kinsman]

I think most of the answers have already been given bar one! You will have far more fun flying a turbo prop than a jet so make the most of it!

We have taken cadet pilots on to the Airbus and I feel a bit sorry for them as they have missed out but I guess they won't miss what they have not had!

The Airbus does not require much handling skill, you could argue the less experience you have on conventional types the better. The cadets tend to adapt to the Airbus much quicker than many experienced pilots. It is only the last 50ft and that lttle thing called airmanship where they play catch-up.

Don't be in a rush, when you are sitting on a night TFS for the third night in a row you will miss your days on the turbo props.:ok:

[trytofly]

Beamer

Original thread was ref turbo prop experience...not light A/C stuff.
The difference between an experienced turbo prop guy, with multi crew, schedule and charter ops, etc, over that of a single crew light A/C guy, even with multi eng. time, is maybe greater than that between a turbo prop guy and an experinced jet jock. ( airline ).

Also, although I have flown with many many excellent ex fast jet jocks, and learned loads from them, there are many who cannot give up the single crew stuff, and do not make good airline crew.

Still reckon 7p3i7lot answered in full.

[Spearing Britney]

Kinsman "The Airbus does not require much handling skill, you could argue the less experience you have on conventional types the better. The cadets tend to adapt to the Airbus much quicker than many experienced pilots. It is only the last 50ft and that lttle thing called airmanship where they play catch-up."

Bollocks! The last 50 feet are played much better by many 'cadets' than by many experienced types, perhaps for the very reason that they havent been on other types! As for airmanship, well they are cadets, just cos they fly a bus what do you expect?!?!

The biggest problems with the bus can often be people who won't accept that it can do X or Y, just that it does it differently. More overcontrolling by big hour guys than by cadets too...

As for the original question, have to agree it is just because they can...

For the record, I loved my time on props but this is a job and the bus is the best place I have worked yet...

[Anthony Carn]

It's always amused me that the difficulty and stress in aviation is in reverse order to the prestige and financial reward.

Single-crew light twin -- you're doing everything yourself. From the moment the phone goes calling you for a job, you are flat out dealing with every aspect of the pre-flight. You're in close contact with the punters. You're using (often) relatively basic equipment. You're stuck in all the worst weather. The variety of destinations is massive. People regard you as "a pilot of really tiddly planes". Status with friends, family and "better" pilots (coming to that) is ........ zilch. Awful money.

Two- crew airline turboprop -- Handles like a light twin (often). Not much faster.Company do the pre flight stuff. F/O gets the weather and Notams, picks up full nav log, fills in Flight Report title fields (cor, really hard stuff ... not). Capt. calculates fuel. Runway performance often not critical (depending on operation). Better equipment. Segregated from pax. Hosties make the drinks. In the crumblies and icing, but the radar and de-icing works fairly well (a/c age related, I admit). You're regarded as an"airline pilot" of some standing, until they see your aircraft and say "B..b..b..but is got those whirly things on it !" Money getting better.

Two crew airline short-haul jet. Getting easier, better equipped, way above the weather. You're a "jet airline pilot". People still ask "When are you going to fly something bigger ?". The workload is high, if the sectors are short and frequent. Once you know how to use the performance book and have adapted to the higher speed (big deal), you've discovered how much easier it all is. Ignore the idiots who talk about "swept wing" handling -- it's no different to any other handling (Concorde excepted, and even that's mainly the landing). Money really shooting up, now.

Two (even three) crew long-haul jet. Superb equipment. Handling and speed comments as for short-haul jet. Most of the time spent bored out of your brains, feet on the instrument panel, reading a book, autopilot doing the straight line stuff, even the wiggly bits. No pressure. Performance, fuel and weather planning are more complex, but not much more. You can't land a plane all that well any more, because you only get to do it four times a month (and that goes for landing the plane, too). People think that you are a vastly experienced aviation God. Money at least on a par with short haul, but can be much better. (especially if you work for an ex nationalised mob who pay out huge wedges in allowances).



So, basically, this "jet time" thing is all rubbish.

There's a dangerous new breed of pilot out there. Only ever flown jets since graduating from the Air Training School. I'll leave you to work out why they're dangerous.

I'd be asking "Do you have any other experience except for jet time !!!

[M.85]

Single pilot time doesnt seem to have great impact in Europe.That is flying 5.7 t A/C in nasty weather ,without any Autopilot.
I believe EU airlines rather have operators than flyers.200 hours guy in an Airbus is being done over here,must be working then i guess....airlines are asking for 1000 hoursTT guy with 500 hours on type..so that tells me..they dont need experienced people...


M.85

[Onan the Clumsy]

Anthony You missed out a lower rung on the ladder

jump plane pilot You get a call on Saturday morning when you've already promised your wife you'll go xmas shopping with her. Then you slope off to the airport with the words "And don't come back." ringing in your ears. The drop zone is at least an hour away and the first thing you have to do is to get fuel in the old 182, and there's not even a ladder available. Next you have to hunt around for the pilot's rig because you're damn sure not going to fly without it ( in any event, the seat is welded in place and you need the parachute just to reach the controls. Then you ask where the load is and you get told they haven't shown up yet.

An hour later they show up. Then they need teaching for another hour and all this time you're watching the weather blow in and the legality of the entire operation start to blow out. Then just when you're so cold you can hardly move your fingers (or so hot you're about to pass out) they say it's time to go.

You suddenly can't remember where you put anything and they start yelling at you like its your fault that everythikng's taking so long, even though it's almost going to be a night jump now.

You try and start, but forget to turn the mags on and it was the last start in the battery, so everyone has to get out and they remove the rear bulkhead and jump the a/c and you know they'll take the p1ss for years to come over that one and the student jumper's looking at you like you're the most frightening part of the jump.

You look at the sky and it's about a six thousand overcast by now. Then it's off you go and it's sheer boredom for about 15 minutes while you claw skywards. And then it starts "Five right. Ten left. Come on circle damn it" Except that you can't hear what they're saying cos of how noisy it is and how crappy the headset is and because ATC are warning you about a Jungle Jet heading your way and you're only about 100 above the overcast by now (even though you did of course find a hole to pop through legally :) ).

Then you're on target and the door opens and you start to freeze your nuts off, but it's not too bad because it blows away the smell of the farts you can almost taste. But then the bastard student doesn't want to jump and he grabs the yoke...and starts to pull on it. You break a couple of his fingers, but he doesn't notice and then the tandem master shoves them both out of the door, but not without his foot bending the bottom of it so that you have to hold it closed with the seat belt and keep your speed down in the descent in case it comes loose and takes off the tail (cos you'd get yelled at for that)

Finally you land and they're already drunk, but you still have to gas the a/c up and put her away. Then you get your paycheck and it's another empty envelope so you get in your car and drive the sixty minutes back home except that you have to stop off at the mall on the way to get your wife something to calm her down because you know her anger has been saved up all day.

So jet time...forget it. The real action is at the bottom of the ladder.

Like hauling freight for instance...

[Anthony Carn]

.....the door opens and you start to freeze your nuts off
Door ? You're one of those namby-pamby jump pilots with a door !! My nuts are still thawing.......over twenty years since the last drop ! ;)

......and at some stage you have to threaten a down tools unless they feed you. A greasy bacon (fat mainly) bap is thrown into the cockpit and off you go again.

You're grateful for the refuelling stops, to get the blood flowing in your legs and in winter it's nice to be on the ground for a few minutes where it's a balmy 0 degrees centigrade.

Been there, got the t-shirt. Loved it !

It's one of the most satisfying, interesting, exciting, demanding types of flying I've ever done.

As I said in my previous post, the prestige is all backwards. Jump pilots (the really good ones, mind you) are amongst the elite, in my book. :ok:



[Sorry, rudev, you're probably thinking "WTF ??" Never get two jump pilots talking, they'll be swapping stories for hours! :O ]

[Captain Stable]

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the coffee-mug that goes with it. As for unfreezing the nether regions, you'll have to ask Mrs Stable...

Even had to sleep in the a/c on occasions. I always enjoyed the discipline of dropping one-way RW'ers (STYLE for anyone who don't get it.) One out per pass, every run-in having to be precisely the same as the previous one, spotted from the ground.

Once had a guy grab the ignition key of the 206 and go out of the door with it. 10,000 and a deadstick. :uhoh: :{ Got my revenge on him another time. Put him out 8 miles short of the DZ! :ok:

[Onan the Clumsy]

Capt Stable Yes, I've heard of that little trick (the keys) Not sure I'd file it under humerous stories though. Perhaps the real answer is to bend the pin on his main (In light of recent events, that's not funny any more either though :( ) Or as I heard someone once did, wrap a brick up in his main. :ok: (makes for an interesting opening)

In any event, it's a Cessna. I think they unly made six locks and they're all so worn out now that a screwdriver - or the Cessna key I keep on my keyring :ok: will do the job for me.

(Better at least than blowing the jugs of the engine as you shock cool it on the way down)

[West Coast]

I laugh when I see someone say flying a jet is harder than a turboprop. The example given, holding instructions given 3 miles from the fix on a modern jet, I aint figuring out squat, the FMS is figuring the hold entry, all I have to do is slow. The turboprop guy is having to do it all. I was on top of my game as far as proficiency when I was flying a Brasilia. I will never match those skills in a jet. As the saying goes, I may not be much of a jet pilot, but I can type a hundred words a minute. As far as systems knowledge, find me an electrical system as far as the Brasilias. Try explaining the workings of a prop to a guy who has never flown turboprops.

[av8boy]

I've always thought that turboprop time might be logged as "ultra-high-bypass-turbofan" or "turbofan (unducted)" or the like...

Dave

;)

[Smokie]

Ah! Jump Flying, they were the days!















Never thanked old Miss Mort for Schooling a failure.......

[Danou_71]

West Coast wrote:

...the FMS is figuring the hold entry, all I have to do is slow. The turboprop guy is having to do it all...

G'day West Coast,

Sorry but in the Saab 2000, they can program everything, the FMS even have the "hold at present position" possibility... They have auto-tunning for the VOR's, RTU's and so on. They also can fly a CatIIIa with a HUD, a piece of equipment you don't find in every jet... Except maybe the fighters and biz-jets.
If I look at the BAE 146(yeah, I know, it's not a real jet but an aircraft with 5 APU's;) ), we fly our holdings with the HDG mode, we have to tune all the VOR's for our navigation and to switch APU or engines on, we need to have a master degree in english engineering:} ...

So you're right West Coast, what's the deal about jets??? Only a cheap screen for a company who's looking for pilots, I guess:sad: ...

D_71

[411A]

Interesting comments about jet aircraft, and their operation.
Yes, newer types are very easy to fly, and if equipped with the latest avionics, even better.

Now having said this, would like to take a new jet Captain (say from a regional jet, or maybe an AirBus...or even perhaps a 757) and strap his backside in an old B707...say for example a -321 (no fans, JT4 engines), at MTOW, on a limiting runway (obstacles), and watch his reaction as the engines spool up to takeoff power (why does it take so long), then rolling down the runway and just at V1, number one dies (better have a really strong right leg), rotation and liftoff within the last 500 feet of runway, and find yourself climbing at V2, 300feet/min (if you're lucky), hoping to avoid the hill ahead.

Or---

Lucky you. All engines operating, and eight hours later, here you are requesting descent. ATC says standby (minutes pass) then 'cleared' to FL100.
Close the throttles, point the nose down...and hear the Flight Engineer have a fit because you forgot to keep the inboards spooled up so the turbocompressors could keep the cabin descending.
OK, at twenty miles from the airport, and still at FL100. Grab a fistfull of spoilers...oooh, that was not a good idea, now the aircraft is shaking so much, can't read the instruments.
Better idea would be to split the spoilers (inboards off)...ah, that's better, except that you both have to push the column forward to keep from pitching up (way up), while trimming the stab, opps, started the trim too late, now the jackscrew is stalled.
Now you've overdone it, too low on the glidepath, fistfull of throttles (WTHIH)...where is the thrust? It seems to take forever for 'em to spool up.
Gusty winds on final? No problem, the yaw damper will take care of this...wrong. It had to be switched OFF at 1000agl on landing, leaving you to arm wrestle the pig all the way to the ground. The 39inch ventral fin helped some, but not much.

In the slot at 500agl, across the fence at Vref+5, and hope to push (NOT kick) out the drift, and don't drop a wing much, otherwise you'll scrap a pod, and the Chief Pilot will not be pleased.

Better hope the brakes are up to the task, because reverse only makes noise...a lot.


Then, and only then...will you hope to understand the 'big deal about jets'

The really old ones were not easy. Combine that with guys who had only come from DC-6's or Connies (or like yours truly F.27's) before...interesting times indeed.

Good thing these are not around anymore, because many crashed, due in large part, to mis-handling, or trying for the dirty dive to the runway...which was bad news, if tried.

[trytofly]

Edited - you know why

[Danou_71]

G'day 411a,

Edited - you know why

BTW, every plane have their down turn and limitations: take the Saab 2000, an aircraft I used to fly before, we flew to a small RWY in Switzerland, Lugano(LSZA) 1'100m long with mountains all around and a lake at its end: now imagine the take off, full PAX and one engine die at V1+5 and auto-feather inop:eek: ... You better to be quick to manually feather this huge prop or you'll taste the water or the "Granitus congestus", depending in which direction you are taking off...

I'm sure it is just a matter of time to get used to a new cockpit layout, engine performance and procedures from a new turbo-prop to an old jet, and vice versa for a pilot coming from an old jet to a full EFIS and a fly-by-wire turbo-prop like the Saab 2000.

Merry X-mas,

D_71

[411A]

Danou_71.

And a Merry Xmas to you.

My message was intended to illustrate why airlines require prior experience on previous types. Oddly enough, this seems to be even more necessary now than in the past, due to small training budgets and operating economy enforced by the financial types.
Additionally, you might be surprised at the requirements for crews for older types. Three weeks ago for example there appeared an advertisement for 707, 727 and DC8 crews in Flight International, and suspect that there will be more.
Having trained more than a few in the 707, 'tis interesting indeed to watch folks master this old aircraft....and the smile on their face when they succeed.

[BlueEagle]

I think you have completely missed the point here, 411A described exactly what you might expect to happen in the big four engine jets that bridged the gap between the big props and todays 'Glass'

There are still quite a lot of B707 flying and as fellow aviators sharing that airspace I, for one, would be very happy to know that 411A was flying the B707, or men of similar experience - yes, at the back of Flight International you will still see, on occasion, adverts for B707, DC8 crew, (Danou_71?).

Not quite sure what career path you have mapped out for yourself but don't be to eager to mock, one day the only job you can get may be on a generation of aircraft you thought were in a museum!

[trytofly]

BlueEagle

well my response obviously breached the level of acceptance and so has gone forever.

Still, you obviously got to read it...but I think you have missed my point. ( Made too strongly I now see ). Did I actually say anything about the merits or otherwise of old aircraft or pilots of an earlier generation ????? Absolutely NOT. So where you're coming from ...........who knows !!

I enthuse over the old classics, and love to see them on those rare occassions. What a shame I have to explain to the younger pilots what type of aircraft they're looking at.


Merry Christmas

[Captain Stable]

trytofly, it was I who removed your earlier post. You made no constructive point whatsoever in it. It was simply a verbal attack on another contributor.

I will not tolerate such behaviour in these forums. Take your vitriol elsewhere if you wish to indulge yourself in it. Otherwise please ensure that all responses here are given in a civil, constructive and professional manner.

[LordyLordy]

“Then, and only then...will you hope to understand the 'big deal about jets'”

411A would you not concur that the pistons and turboprops of that period also had their foibles and were probably just as demanding in their own ways. I don’t believe that the difficulties in handling older generation jets justifies the requirement of many airlines for jet hours.

If recruiting for an airline with modern jets with glass flightdecks a guy with time on a 2-pilot glass flightdeck turboprop would represent a lower training risk than someone with jet time on an aircraft with a larger crew and older flightdeck.


lordylordy

[rawmac]

What's the big deal about jets?

A question I was going to ask myself.

But my point is - why are so many pilots/wannabes et al obsessed with getting onto jets? Is it only the money or are they really the pinnacle of all flying experience?

I'd be interested to hear if the rewards - not only monetary - are worth giving up a nice lifestyle/remuneration compromise in the 'lower' levels of the profession?

Thanks in anticipation.

[john_tullamarine]

trytofly, RoboAlbert, and anyone else we unintentionally upset from time to time ..

First, I haven't been following this thread daily so I missed some of the detail ... but that is not critical to the post ..

Chaps, might I suggest a few deep breaths and/or count to ten when the blood pressure rises ..

We all have to acknowledge that

(a) there are posts which can irritate us as individuals for this reason or that ... and I include us all .. as mods we are no different to anyone else on the forum except that we get blamed by all and sundry when anything is perceived to go wrong ...

(b) as moderators we do our best but regularly get it not quite as right as we might like ... guess we are just human and subject to all the run of the mill human foibles ... same as everyone else.

(c) all we, as mods, ask ... is that we all should try to be rational and deliberate in our commentary on the more "serious" of the forums .. lest they degenerate into the abyss of the more entertaining places where we go from time to time for relief from the real world and its problems ...

Merry Christmas all ... and a better year to come in '04

[Anthony Carn]

.............a guy with time on a 2-pilot glass flightdeck turboprop would represent a lower training risk than someone with jet time on an aircraft with a larger crew and older flightdeck.
Disagree, not because of the jet aspect, but because of the glass cockpit element.

Glass cockpits are bad news in one respect.....

Very difficult to stay properly practised in raw data flying.

Even worse, pilots who left an approved school with only a few dozen hours or so lifetimes experience of raw data instrument flying, then straight into a glass cockpit, are really up the creek without a paddle on that dark windy night when it all goes blank.

Potentially one of the biggest problems relating to pilot skills is being created right now by glass cockpits.


As for the training aspect, if you can fly an old fashioned aircraft, then a glass cockpit should be no problem. The reverse is'nt quite as certain, for the reasons given above.

[Ignition Override]

Anthony Carn said it better than I had hoped to.

Pilots in the (especially) later Airbus and Boeing types are said to lose their piloting skills, especially when only flying ILS approaches.

I'm certainly not the best pilot, but if I flew for years in a later-generation glass cockpit, it could be a very risky proposition to divert to an alternate and have serious problems with any of the autopilots or autothrottles, as the fuel burns down to reserve with some contingency left over, while vectored into an uncontrolled airport. How about for a procedure turn in the mountains of western Montana on a winter night ?:ugh:


But I suppose that a brand-new airplane with the latest in automation is the solution for this situation, jet engines or not.........:D

[ZFT]

411A

<<Gusty winds on final? No problem, the yaw damper will take care of this...wrong. It had to be switched OFF at 1000agl on landing, leaving you to arm wrestle the pig all the way to the ground. The 39inch ventral fin helped some, but not much.>>

Wasn't this the A model only? Series YD as opposed to parallel on B & C models. Also if I recall correctly, you could have either AP on or YD on but not both as same switch on AP controller

[Panama Jack]

Captain Stable wrote:

Even had to sleep in the a/c on occasions.


Ah yes, I know what you mean. Did the night cargo "thing" and it sure makes the time to destination go by faster and the time in flight at 4:00 am go by less painfully, doesn't it? :E

[411A]

ZFT,
All straight pipe (non fan) series B707's had the parallel yaw damper fitted (either yaw damper or autopilot, as you indicated), whereas some (but not all) fan powered (non-advanced) models had the series yaw damper, which remained engaged for all flight regimes.

The B/C advanced models had many improvements.
A larger vertical stabilizer/rudder, improved Q-feel for the rudder power, series (ie: full time) yaw damper, advanced cowl, full span leading edge devices, improved trailing edge/fillet flaps, and most important, more responsive engines (JT3D series), yielding much improved airfield performance.
An altogether different aeroplane.

Did my original training on the B-advanced model, then asked the old-timers at PanAmerican to indicate what I needed to know about the older aircraft, as these are what I would be flying.
They mentioned they were a bear to fly...and they were right.

[ZFT]

411A,

Thanks for the correction. (I always seem to confuse series & parallel YDs)

Just remembered another difference between A and B/C models - flaps settings.

As an aside, I wonder if there are any A models still flying?

[411A]

ZFT,

Flap settings changed with the newer design as you indicated.
Early aircraft used 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 degree increments, whereas B/C advanced aircraft used 14, 25, 40, 50...a few early fan powered aircraft used 17 instead of 14, and a few of these had the 39 inch ventral fin as well.
Many permutations.

So far as I know, the only straight pipe models flying are with the Israeli air force, altho, some (most) of these are being converted to JT3D power (engine and pylon change).

The early model airframes were prone to rather severe skin cracks, mostly in the fuselage crown. The first fix were external straps over the affected area (good for 2500 cycles) then reskining was required. In later aircraft, different alloys were used, as well as a heavier gauge skin.
One thing that amazed me was the strength of the main gear, landing with drift on did not seem to be all that much of a problem. A PanAmerican pilot even landed one with a fractured (separated) side brace, in a gusty crosswind, yet the gear did not collapse on touchdown.
Having said this, if the landing gear was extended manually, the F/E always had to go below in the lower 41 and set the pin, otherwise the nose gear would collapse as the nose was lowered. Caught out a few.
Have left out mention about the 'water wagons'...ugh, to be avoided whenever possible. In my opinion, a bad design that created a LOT of noise...and not much else.

The old 707 was (is) a truly remarkable aircraft, that served their owners well....for a very long time. The Boeing design guys learned a LOT from the DeHavilland Comet problems, for sure.
Hats off to these folks...absolutely.

[Ignition Override]

Back in 1965-66 in the US, some major airlines were so desperate that they hired some pilots with only 300 or so hours. One pilot had to wait until he was 21 years old, and checked out as 727 captain at TWA around age 25. This was decades before a few situations (i.e. United) by which some US airlines were under court-orders to fill certain quotas for females... etc, whether the pilots had 4,000 hours multi-engine, or just 300 in a C-172....:)

[witchdoctor]

Nah, its the aerial photo guys in the C150's at the bottom of the ladder.:ok: Down in the mud with the FJ guys!

Lovin' it too - really don't wanna go long haul, too dull. I'll take the cash though.:p