NATS Pay/WP

[Nogbad the Bad]

As no-one seems to post on to, or read, the NATS forum my apologies to those non-NATS PPruners for this NATS-specific thread.

Question :

Does anyone know how far this year's pay/working practice negotiations are going ??

If there is no specific "deal" worked out by 31st December, will Prospect still continue to with it's "no deal, no AAVA stance", or will it turn turtle and have it's belly rubbed (as SRG seem to do when it comes to anything to do with NATS) ??

[Special VFR]

Latest pay over rejected by the union. More talks to take place soon I believe.

WP proposals on-going. I believe there is a joint management/union task force going round the units to establish movement rates, complexity and other stuff. A meeting is then to take place to decide a pecking order.

I'd find out more but our rep hasn't sobered up yet from the conference! :D

[Dan Dare]

Let me guess...

UK average pay award - 4.5%
so our union reps ask for 2.9%
NATS offer 1.9%

so Prospect agree 2.0% and try to say they have done marvelously in gaining us a beneath inflation pay rise again

Or will things be different this year?

[Findo]

Dan you've a very short memory.

The current deal just ending was one of the best above inflation rises I have ever seen especially as it was not linked to any other negotiations, non pensionable bonus etc.

Give credit where due.

:)

[VectorLine]

Nogbad

May I suggest that for reliable information you speak to your unit/watch rep?

Anyway - what do you think of the rumour that the Union are negotiating for AAVA at standard rate?

Would you do it for standard rate? I bet there are some that would.

[HAMMY]

Dan Dare,if you think that the union let you down with respect to pay rises then don't whinge or make snide comments about them.Do something about it.Become a union rep yourself if you dare.Then we will all take great pleasure in blaming you when said pay rise is p*** poor!

[Nogbad the Bad]

Anyway - what do you think of the rumour that the Union are negotiating for AAVA at standard rate?

I just hope that it's not a rumour based upon fact !!!!!!!! AAVAs are there to help "management" out of the hole that they have dug for NATS over the past many years - and as such, they should pay for them dearly !!

[Scott Voigt]

Just to give y'all something to show NATS on what some others are getting for the cost of living raise. We are going to get a 4.1% in the coming year...

regards


Scott

[250 kts]

Nogbad,

The problem with the present system is that the "flat rate" allows a junior person with less than the minimum unit validations, and therefore useless on nights, to do AAVAs pretty much whenever they like in terms of SRATCOH and consequently walk away with more than the person who has just trained them. Now no one can tell me that that is a fair and equitable system.

I am certainly in favour of them being paid as a percentage of base salary if only to iron anomalies like the one above. This could be set so the max is around the present daily rate maybe with a sliding scale down from there.

Yes you're right that they get mgt out of a hole but it is in no ones interest for NATS to go under or even to face massive service delivery fines. But NATS must realise that the staff will want a share of the fines avoided due to improved service delivery. It is no good claiming that the money was used to fund the cost savings announced earlier in the year-you will only get away with that once!! Certainly at LACC we made WP changes last summer which have made a massive improvement to service but there is no doubt that if the pay negotiations and/or restructuring fail to deliver then so will the staff come summer 2004.

Management be aware of the strength of feeling-ignore it at your peril!!

[Jerricho]

250 kts, you're kidding right? We have had several AVA's in, and because we have been so short staffed I have been hella glad to see them. I couldn't give a rats @ss how much they are getting for the shift. And you can wave the "lets close sectors and delays and stuff just to prove a point" flag all you want. I thought we were all on the same side.........................also what gives you the right to assume one of your days off is worth more than a "junior" controllers?

You really support my argument that ATCO's hate to see others getting something they aren't.

[250 kts]

Jerri,

Kidding on which point?

As someone who isn't personally bothered about the AAVA rate(cos I don't do 'em) I consider it grossly unfair that someone can boost their salary by upto 50% just because of their position on the scale and the lack of validations they hold. The bit that really gauls is the fact that these "junior" staff are able to do the number of AAVAs because their ability to do them is enhanced by them not doing nights. Now I know this situation is probably unique to LACC but it causes a massive amount of resentment. It could be resolved by Prospect insisting that a limit be put on the number that an individual can do each month. And let's not forget that these duties are VOLUNTARY and therefore if these people are no longer happy to do the duties at the reduced rate then they can vote with their feet-and I reckon very few would!! No, one of my days off is not worth a different rate,but the rate I earn at work is-say 55k versus 35k for a more junior person.

As for being glad that an AAVA turns up-no not really. I know that I could be in position for upto an hour and a half-that's life. Maybe you've been glad to see tham because your unit's management have a gun-ho attitude to the TSFs and subsequent delays. It no longer is clever to not insist that the correct flow is applied-especially if you are short staffed in the first place.

Yes we are all on the same side but mgt have to realise that the goodwill that has been created can just as easily be lost if staff do not feel suitably rewarded for their hard work and commitment. As I said no one wants to see things deteriorate again and no doubt at units like TC people will be falling over themselves to attend a few days more and take on a few more validations 'cos it makes them all feel good but eventually the "feel good" bubble will burst-probably round about the time places like TC and MACC start to get involved in re-locations and the like.

[Jerricho]

Sorry 250kts, I didn't realise the "massive resentment" at Swanwick regarding this. I don't understand why it causes resentment, other than the good old "Oh, oh, somebody is getting something I'm not!!!". Can't be happy for people starting out (who, as you mention, are on base salaries less than you..........AND less than some ATSA's). Yes they are voluntary, and the people are volunteering to forgo a day off and be paid for it. And is it just "junior" controllers that don't do nights?

Regarding being happy to see the AVA....it's not because I don't want to sit there for less than an hour and a half; the times we have had them is simply because it's a little difficult to run 4 positions with 3 people. Some of us don't have the luxury of closing airspace. And you can harp on all you like about EFFECTIVE (<- note) flow, MDA etc, some sectors are a little harder to do.

[j17]

Jerricho

If there is a shortage of Atcos shut or severely restrict the airspace. The French Spanish and Italians have been doing it for years and seem to get what they want .Dont reley on Overtime

[VectorLine]

250kts..


You must be ex military. Right?

How can you describe someone who has been trained to the same standard as you have been and holds a validation approved by the CAA as 'Junior' to you?

You are correct that there are plenty of people below you on the pay scale because they have less years service than you. But that doesn't make them 'Junior' Staff.

A newly valid controller and one who has been valid 10years+ do the same job and under the same circumstances. Som might even say that some newly valid ATCO's do a better job than some of the 'stalwarts' of the unit!!
:oh: :E

It is my opinion that the company previously put a value on an ATCO shift during LACC OCT. If I remember correctly that was about £850 - - it should remain as such

[zonoma]

VectorLine, that figure looks great, but look at the resentment the Union has to AAVA's and then realise that they would happily negotiate the figure DOWN even further than it already is just because they don't like them. Rumours I've heard is that the payment could become a percentage of your own pay. It means management reluctance to get in the 'wiser' therefore more expensive, and to gently persuade the younger ones that aren't getting the right side of the deal not to sign up for them again.

Either way, my view is that without AAVA's we would have been screwed beyond belief this summer - no matter who came in to do them, so the company benefitted. It would be nice to see management to according reward ALL operational staff for their time and efforts in reducing delays, I know this will never happen no matter how much they saved in fines. If AAVA's are working on the voluntary basis, then keep them going with good reward on a voluntary basis, so everyone has a fair choice. Keep staff coming in on them, then there will be no need for making them compulsary.

If single sector staff continue to be allowed to do AAVA's, how about making them train on AAVA's on the other half, so we can get them useful for nights quicker. Even better, how about a novel idea and making them train Tactical only on both to start off with, then doing Planner once experienced?? But of course it'll never work, even if we did used to get them valid quicker the old way :bored: :ugh:

[Jerricho]

J17,

I can apprecaite what you're saying, however some sectors are much harder to restrict or close than others. You guys can level cap, re-route, close airspace or give airspace to other ATSU's. Some of us don't have the luxury. Just the good old FMU, which we all know isn't an exact science. Or, sorry, no approach service for Dubya's visit, we don't have the staff.

Delaying the travelling public does prove a point regarding the staffing situation. We see strikes on the tubes, mail services and the fire services. However, I dare to say if you explained to Mr. Self-Load that while he was delayed for 4 hours due to staff shortage, there IS a system in place to alleviate staff shortages.............oh, and don't forget to mention how much are these people getting paid for the shift.

[Roger Dodge]

250kts

Please also remember that these 'junior' staff that you keep refering to may have been 'seen off' on the payscale depending on when they validated.

If they validated before the '2 years from leaving the college' date, then they would have been paid on the v2 scale up until that 2 year point. You therefore have a valid ATCO not being paid on the ATCO II scale!! Fair and equitable system??

Therefore, if the lower class junior controllers do a few AAVA's, they are only trying to recoup some of the money they should have been paid in the previous months for being valid and on a training scale :mad:

Jerricho

It may be a bit difficult to close/restrict your airspace methinks :p

[Slippers]

I was under the impression that after the shambles of the last pay vote, this time round ATCO's would be making a separate pay claim from the assistants and engineers. However I have recently be told that that is not the case and that a joint claim has been lodged again this year. Can anybody shed any light on that?

[Special VFR]

I understand that the union wanted separate negotiations but the management side would only make one offer to all.

[Connex]

And that is exactly how it should be.

[BOBBLEHAT]

Nats' support costs are among the highest in Europe. Nat's atco costs are not. I'm sorry but there are some very highly paid people in Nats who have no additional responsibility as traffic increases and who do not have additional risk to their licence. Why do they deserve the same pay rise?

Pay meeting was today. Monday 24 Nov. 2 year deal? can anyone shed any more light?

[055166k]

You can bet your depleted pension that they want a 2-year deal. Every financial pointer indicates a rising trend in interest rates and inflation always flies in tight formation with it. I'd say they are desperate for a 2-year deal at to-day's rates rather than next year's.

[Roger Dodge]

Apparently the union have refused to accept a 2 year deal.:D

[Jerricho]

2 year deal R.D. You should be off the T&D scale by then! :p

[Connex]

Bobblehat –

Quote: “Nats' support costs are among the highest in Europe. Nat's atco costs are not. I'm sorry but there are some very highly paid people in Nats who have no additional responsibility as traffic increases and who do not have additional risk to their licence. Why do they deserve the same pay rise?”

What we are talking about here is a pay rise for all NATS ATC staff - not just the ATCOs. A 3% increase on my salary is a lot less in my pocket than 3% in yours – but I am not complaining about that. In fact I accept it! I have chosen to be an ATSA, and the job, and the salary, suits me fine. What I do not accept is the continual ATCO “We want more” gripe, which is based on the (utterly selfish) principle of ATCOs always receiving more of everything/anything than everybody else. WHY? You already receive a higher level of salary than just about everybody else, and you receive it as acknowledgement/reward for the “additional responsibility” you are always prattling on about. The way you bloody lot go on, you’d think that its purely ATCOs who "do the job" for NATS, and nobody else matters! Your bobblehat has obviously slipped over your eyes, pal, – pull it up and take a good look around you. The cost of living is the same for us all – and it goes up the same for us all too.

Irrespective of what each support staff member is paid, contributes to the job, has/doesn’t have responsibility for, or whatever, the fact remains that at the present time ATCOs cannot provide the ATC service without the support staff. If there is a limited amount of money in the NATS kitty to be used for raising salaries, then it is only fair that ALL participating staff receive at least an equal percentage pay rise, even if this doesn’t equate to an equal amount of cash in the pocket. If you think you're worth more, that’s fine – just don’t expect to receive it at the ultimate expense of the support staff salaries. We have as much entitlement to a fair pay award as you, and there's only so much to go around.

The inference from your statement is that other European ATCOs receive higher pay than UK ATCOs. I do not know if this is correct, but if it is, then I suggest you push off to EU-pastures anew, and take all your other ATCO money-grabbing “gripers” with you. You won’t be missed.
:mad:

[Gonzo]

..........must resist.......nnnnnnnnnngggghhhhhh........resist............. ..resist...........................................must not post reply............nnnnnnnnggggghhhhhh........................ ...

[Jerricho]

Unlike you Gonze, I just can't resist.

and take all your other ATCO money-grabbing “gripers” with you. You won’t be missed.

It's good to see you're still well balanced Connex. A chip on both shoulders. Sure we won't be missed. And just remind me the requirements to provide an Air Traffic Service......oh yeah, a licence.

P.S. I'm sure you posted here once you didn't give a toss.

[bagpuss lives]

I'm sorry but I don't quite "get" the whole ATSAs vs ATCOs mentality? Nor do I want to I think.

[1261]

Doesn't seem to be an issue anywhere except LL and LACC......

[BOBBLEHAT]

I thought that may provoke a interesting response.

Every non atco employee at Nats is purely a member of support staff. From the switchboard to Richard Everett. That's not to say that some are not harder working, more experienced etc than others.

The point is that Nats is an air traffic control provider. Whether you like it or not (most) atco's are highly skilled and trained individuals who have taken years to train for the job and get lumped in with the support staff at pay time. The atco is the fulcrum about which the entire comapny pivots. That is a fact.

You can argue all you want about the skills required to be an atsa or other support staff but at the end of the day it is ALWAYS the atco that carries the can on the sector.

All that and more are fair reasons why the atco should not be subject to the same pay award as the blip driver etc

Perhaps PCS should negotiate seperately for operational support staff? Maybe that will calm what I expect to be another interesting reaction.

[bagpuss lives]

I think on this occasion PCS is negotiating separately from PROSPECT - at least in the most part?

Yes, it is always the ATCO that "carries the can" on the sector but as technology stands at the moment ATC is still very very much a team game; I truly believe that. And whilst those members of the support staff may not have undergone such intensive training as those at the "sharp end" I think everyone would agree that the job would be much much more difficult nay impossible without them (as it stands today)?

Sticking up for the ATSAs here especially - there are many of my colleagues who readily admit that on many occasions they've been "saved" or very very appropriately assisted by an on-the-ball ATSA.

I find this whole ATCOs vs ATSAs / Support Staff thing that, yes does seem to appear to be a Southern thing in the main part (it certainly doesn't go on at my unit), a massive waste of time and a little childish to be honest. As well as detrimental to us as a workforce as a whole, especially at pay deal time. Divide and rule and all that. We're all supposed to be colleagues supporting each other and working towards a common goal (excuse the semi-management speak) - that can't be easy for both sides when each thinks they are the more valuable / righteous / worthy etc etc etc

In short yes, ATCOs are undoubtedly the most valuable asset any ATS provider. But, at the moment, take the ATSAs, TELS and the majority of the other support bods out of the equation or make them in some way unworthy, unequal or downtrodden - and licences and all that hard training wouldn't matter a great deal ;)

Until that is, reliable technology replaces reliable people of course.

[DC10RealMan]

Niteflight

Can I come to Manchester please!!!

[mainecoon]

dc10

think it might be arranged but you would have to agree on moving to the new scottish
i'm sure one of our collegues would happily swap with you;)

[DC10RealMan]

I joined the CAA as it then was in 1981 Manchesters closure was imminent then,I shall believe it when it happens. I am for closing Swanwick down and transferring everyone to Manchester!. I would swop with someone at Manchester without a moments hesitation.

[Greebson]

So here we are two years on, having learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, having the same old ATSA/ATCO argument just in time for the negotiations to come. Try to learn from your mistakes (although I think I'm flogging a dead horse) arguing between ourselves only strengthens the management position. Let's pull together this time before the inevitable collapse.:* :* :* :*

[Connex]

Greebson -

I couldn't agree more. It IS the same old ATSA/ATCO thing - but how do you get the ATCOs and their Union to acknowledge the fact that ATC is staffed by people other than just ATCOs? If they would just for once take notice of all the in-house damage they do by taking the "holier than thou" attitude, both on a day to day basis and at the negotiating table, (and try to integrate rather than separate themselves from the rest of us), then maybe, just maybe, this problem would resolve itself.

I have spent years trying to fathom out the reasons why there is a problem with the ATCO/everybody else working relationship, and coming up with some sort of rational solution to this dilemma. However, the fact of the matter is that many ATCOs just don't want to be part of a team - they think they ARE the team. And before all you ATCOs start tapping out your "what the **** are you talking about?" responses, just consider this point. If you really, truly consider all of us (ATSAs, ATCOs et al) to be all batting for the same side, then why is it that when things like the pay negotiations come around, your Union and yourselves have ALWAYS got to have that little bit more than the rest of us? Do you not realise that, when dealing with limited resources, whatever they are, the gains that you make/demand will ultimately be made at the expense of the rest of us?

I really cannot see why Prospect and its members won't agree to an across- the-board equal percentage pay rise. ATCOs will still end up with more in their pockets than the rest of us, but at least we won't feel that we've been shafted yet again at the negotiating table, as happened last time around. A little bit of co-operation (unity?) between the Unions, and a general open acceptance by everybody that we ALL have relevant parts to play in this business, would go a long way to healing the divisions.

As for myself, I will continue to "flog the dead horse". A policy of fairness applied across the board is the only way to resolve this issue. Greebson, pass me the whip when you've finished with it!

PS: Gonzo - I expect you do AAVAs - spend some of it on a bar of ExLax - might relieve the "nnnnghhh" factor apparent in your last post.

PPS - And Jerricho (the ATSAs' Friend!!) - ref your reply - usual derogatory sh*te - looks like you could do with a box of the stuff!

:E

[PH-UKU]

No disrrespect folks but Doctors get paid more than nurses, pilots get paid more than dispatchers, and we all get paid more than toilet attendants. So I'm at a loss to see why ATCOs shouldn't get more than ATSAs. ATCOs #### up and it's on the front page of the papers. A licence is a licence is a licence. If you don't like that or can't live with it .......... get a licence.

[StillDark&Hungry]

Couldn't agree more!

Now don't get me wrong - I am definitely not anti ATSA and have never added fuel to this long burning fire before, but;

I actually admire our ATSA team members - I think it's amazing how you have managed to wrap management around your little fingers! Imagine approaching the "average" person in the street, may they be a firefighter, postman, nurse or teacher etc., and telling them that for up to £36k a year, two thirds of your working time is spent reading the daily rags or mags, fiddling with pieces of printed paper then having a break!
The ATSA task may well have been reduced by the company with our move to NERC, and I'm sure (or I hope) you want to do more to relieve the boredome - but you have to admit, in terms of productivity it's not a bad monthly pay packet, is it?:confused:

[Gonzo]

Connex,

Gonzo - I expect you do AAVAs

I'm sorry, Connex, but that sounds like you're calling me a liar. Could you clarify that for me?

I'm not going to argue with you, because I think the only thing we'll agree in is that we'll never agree.

Before you judge me, though, why don't you come to Heathrow and watch my pathetically degrogatory behaviour towards my ATSA colleagues, and see how differently I treat them to the controllers. :rolleyes:

(edit for spelling)

[Findo]

Connex As an ex ATCA and somewhat time served ATCO, I am pleased to say I have lots of NATS staff as friends around the country, some of them ATCOs. At each unit where I have worked there have been whingers in all grades.

Have a thought about this. In your view the ATCO and their union have beligerent attitudes. Actually that may be the very reason NATS rewards it's staff the way it does.

Compare the reward packages of our support staff to similar industries. In some cases they are considerably better than comparible jobs elsewhere. Those who are not generally have greater ability to move and will do so. You make your mind up whether the noisy lot with attitude have anything to do with the overall reward situation.


In the meantime you will simply find us noisy lot will continue to demand better conditions because we have market forces and industrial muscle in our favour. We can still see improvements to be had and comparisons to be made ( just wait until our lot regularly mingle with our Spanish cousins !! ) and we don't intend sitting back waiting for the never never day when we are offered more than we believe we are worth. If that improves everyone's lot then we are all happy. :ok:

[Connex]

You are all missing the point. What I am saying is that nobody begrudges ATCOs earning more than other grades - not even me. All I would like to see, if only for the sake of seeing everybody feeling content with their pay rise for once, is implementation of an equal, across-the-board percentage pay rise. 3% (or whatever it is) for ATCOs, 3% for ATSAs, 3% for everybody. ATCOs will still be getting more take-home than all of us. It would also indicate to Management that we actually have some sort of harmonisation and, dare I say it, unity, between the different grades and their members.

Gonzo - I am not sure where you're going with your last post, but if I wanted to call you a liar then this is how it would look - you are a liar. But I'm not, so take it anyway you want. Also, thanks for the kind offer, but I have far more important and interesting things to do with my time off than visiting other Units. Besides, I might want to work with you!!:E

PERMANENTLY!!:E :E

[Gonzo]

You'll have to help me here.....

I say that I don't do AAVAs

You say "I expect you do AAVAs"

Hmmmmm.......whatever.

but I have far more important and interesting things to do with my time off than visiting other Units

Oh dear! :E So, how does your call for increasing unity across all grades and units follow with a reluctance to undertake liason visits?????????????????????? You suprise me, Connex! Someone who likes to show he has a 'finger on the pulse'.....

And one taste of my mars bar shortbread I bake for our afternoon shifts, and you wouldn't be going back!!! ;)

[Nogbad the Bad]

CONNEX (and others) why not start a thread about ATCO/ATSA differentials and leave this thread to those that want to know about NATS Pay/WP.

Thank you

[zygote]

To get back to the point of this thread; does anyone know what the latest situation is with the AAVAs/ATCO restructuring/money ?

[halo]

awwwwwwwwww, I haven't sampled any mars bar shortbread..... I feel like I've been missing out :(

[Jerricho]

Connex,

Just my usual derogatory "sh*te"......directed at you. But, unlike you, I'm not hiding behind a "alias" on an anonymous forum.

(I usually acknowledge when I being petty, like now!)

[Not Long Now]

Correct me if I'm wrong (duck from incoming...) but

As I understand it, the union have said that if the pay deal is not in place by beginning of 2004 (never has been in place less than six months after supposed introduction date in my personal experience but I suppose if miracles are going to happen it's the right season) then the AAVA agreement will lapse and not be renewed on 1st Jan. This will leave about 3 of us in TC left manning the radars while everyone else trots off to Bournemouth to be 'Easted', not an awful lot at NERC, and who knows how many elsewhere.
As the pay would have to be voted on by national postal ballot, let's say 25 days presuming everyone is extremely organised and reindeers aplenty are available to do extra deliveries for the good old post office, that leaves about 7 days for someone to come up with an acceptable offer and get the ball rolling, all presuming everyone and everything works over Christmas bank holidays.

Call me sceptical, but I don't really see it all happening...

[Arkady]

Do NATS need the agreement to offer overtime under the terms of the Staff Handbook? How many ATCOs would accept overtime on this basis? NATS may be banking on the fact that a significant number of ATCOs now feel they need the extra money every month.

[Nogbad the Bad]

You may be right Arkady, but given the present attitude of "management" and the way they always take, take, take - and given the fact that those involved in TC are (hopefully) enlightened enough to stick by the present Union stance, I can't see many in TC offering to do overtime (instead of AAVA) that is not sanctioned by the Union.

Especially where TC East is concerned.

And NLN is quite right - time is fast running out.........

[Greebson]

Connex
Please don't think I'm on your side on this issue, I'm quite the opposite. It is people like you - ATCOs and ATSAs - that feel the need to whip up feelings that may be not even be there until pay talks come around.
As I see it you seem to hate ATCOs and everything they stand for but are willing to surf any pay-related wave that comes along. I don't know about money grabbing, whingeing ATCOs it seems you are not that far behind (if not a little ahead).
Incidentally, how much harder are you working than you were 10 years ago?
Now take a look at any ATCO alongside, how much harder is s/he working?
Now ask yourself if you are worth the same size pay rise?

[Gonzo]

halo, I'll do some for my D4s this cycle.....

[Dances with Boffins]

Hello, reality calling.....

I can't speak for other NATS units, but at mine we have some managers who are actually trying to help sort out some of the c**p within our company. We have learned from them that the company can only afford to give us XXX pounds total as a wage rise this year, without borrowing more from the banks. If we all throw our toys and demand more than XXX, then the company will either have to borrow more [not a good idea] or lose some staff to pay for it - which would mean we would all have to work even harder than we are at present. Hands up all those who want to work harder.

Isn't it time that we all. ATCOs ATSAs Engineers Admin, cleaners whatever, started to fight to keep the whole sodding edifice afloat, rather than comparing our poor sorry conditions to others abroad. We work here 'cos we want to work here, no-one is forcing us. We do however have the power to weaken the company to the extent that it goes t**ts up, and PDQ. ATCOs would be okay, as they would be re-employed by whoever picked up the bits [but you can bet that it wouldn't be under nearly such cosy conditions as NATS offer]. Everyone else would be left to rot.

We can keep working for NATS, and await a brighter future, or kick it to death while it is suffering the after effects of some crap circumstances, and some p**s awful management decisions from the recent past. Trying to declare war on management is about as stupid a suggestion as anyone could make at this juncture, but some will try. The alternative is actually working with everyone around you to try and assure yourselves that you have a future. ATCOs getting shirty with ATSAs just gets you a worse atmosphere in the Ops room. ATSAs moaning about the 'high-priced-help' will just make them more convinced that they would be better off without any assistance at all. The truth is we all need each other. The difference is how much, at different times.

I've worked for other companys. You have to trust me that this one isn't all that bad. Some outsiders [my wife for one] can't believe what cosy conditions we get. £20k for being a student? You're having a laugh.....

Okay. I won't wriggle. Fire at will......

DWB :cool:

[Connex]

Greebson –

I am not anti-ATCO, I am pro-fairness across the board - and this refers to anyone, anything and everything within NATS. I am not inciting anti-ATCO feeling as you suggest. Judging by conversations amongst my own colleagues, I have no need to help with this!! (it’s a pity that more ATSAs do not join in the pay debate, whatever their opinion) I am, however, trying to highlight internal differences of opinion which cause friction between grades. There is nothing more certain to cause trouble than the issue of money. The two Unions and their members do not work together, as the concept of Union membership desires. Just for once, it would be great for us all if we could all work together towards the goal (the pay rise) and not follow the usual ‘non-cooperation’ line which has prevailed in the past. Just out of interest, what’s your view on having just one Union for all NATS ATC staff? (Answer on the back of a stamp using a whitewash brush, no doubt.)

Gonzo –

Ahh, I have heard about you and your legendary culinary expertise. As you are obviously on such good terms with them, have you asked any of your own ATSA colleagues what they think about the pay issue? I’ll check with a couple of LL friends and see! Also, I thought that liason visits were to see how other Units operated, and not to be used as “rally-to-the-cause” meetings. The fact that I personally would like to see us all working together as a team, and not the “sham-team” of reality, is my choice. Each of us should have enough savvy to decide where we stand on this and every issue, and follow that decision accordingly. I am not calling for “increasing unity” from anyone. Whatever I post on this forum is my own opinion only – I do not speak for anybody else.

Nogbad the Bad –

I am waiting to see if anybody posts any information about the ATSA position in the negotiations. This thread is about NATS Pay/WP, not ATCO pay/WP. What Prospect and its members do has implications for the rest of us. Therefore the topic under discussion is relevant to the ATSA position. If you don’t like that, then I suggest you apply the same ‘remedy’ I suggested to Jerricho in my last post.
:mad: :mad: :mad: and:mad: !!

Dances with Boffins -

just read your post - couldn't agree more. Now where do we start?

[Gonzo]

I don't think I've ever asked anyone, ATSA or ATCO; "So, what do you think about the big pay issue?" It's come up in discussion amongst us (And to me, 'us' means ATSAs (2s and 4s) and ATCOs).

Ok, so now I'm worried how far tales of my shortbread and brownies have travelled!!!!

[2 six 4]

dances with boffins...... we said privatisation did not make sense financially or otherwise. The industry said so. The Government said we needed to be privatised and our management said ok.

So now the Government and our management say there is no money...... errrrr so we just say OK you were right ????

We have said all along the staff did not vote for privatisation so we won't pay for it.

NATS paid for its own purchase by saddling itself with massive debt - NOT our new owners. So you can count me out when people like your sweet managers say they are doing everything to keep the company afloat. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Who is just about to sign away a huge chunk of our income by giving the Irish 90% of trans Atlantic traffic ? Remember all those tear jerking stories about only 14% of the volume but 40% of the income ?. :mad: :mad:

[halo]

I can't wait!! I'm actually salivating at the very thought :D

[Findo]

Excuse the ignorance halo but exactly what are you slobbering over ? :confused: :confused:

[Dances with Boffins]

2 Six 4

We got privatised, we have to live with it. Nobody thinks it was a good idea, but it has happened. Simply sticking our collective heads in the sand and wishing for some miracle to happen will surely be the death of the company. I for one do not want that to happen, if only for the reason that I'm too old and lazy to start looking for a new job. I like the one I've got. The simple fact is that our beloved employer is not too strong at the moment, due to past events. Blaming people won't fix it. Whingeing about pay awards won't help. Maybe we should all try and pull together, if only temporarily, in order to keep the rickety old ship ploughing onward.
If you think that the management needs changing, apply for the job. We need more proper managers, not just people who can't be ATCOs any more. [Apologies to those ex-ATCOs who are actually making a decent job of management, you all know who you are].

DWB:cool:

P.S. I don't understand the Irish thing either, if it makes any difference. They've been after that particular slice of sky for years

[eyeinthesky]

The thing which bugs me is that the "There is no more money" argument has been dragged out on every occasion since PPP.

We were told there was no more money at the last pay round, but the ATCOs stuck out and some was found, (only for PCS, who had accepted the argument, suddenly to have a change of plan and demand the same as ATCOs, even though their members had voted to accept the original deal...), and then we were told that LACC had to change to the new 0630 starts and so on 'for the Summer only'. This was mainly to avoid a £5m fine if delays were not got below 1.5 mins per flight. We were promised that this would 'put us in a strong position for the 2004 Pay Round'.

We have recently seen it praised around the company and national press that delays are now about 0.7 mins per flight. So not only have we saved them a £5m fine but we have HALVED the TARGET delay.

In my book, we have bent over backwards to accommodate the difficulties of the company following PPP, and it is time for some recognition of that. A pay award which only just matches inflation does not represent that.

The other point is that the AAVA scheme in use at LACC has saved the company's bacon in the delay figure and has been cheaper than employing enough ATCOs to staff the 22 Sectors or whatever they committed to open. The individuals concerned have done nicely out if it, and it is their business if they want to give up their spare time to turn up at work. I wouldn't mind betting that the ORO and others now RELY upon AAVAs to get them out of rostering holes, and to withdraw the agreement (and enforce it) will cause no end of trouble, especially with the CLN resectorisation going on.

I'm not going to enter the ATCO/ATSA debate other than to say that many ATSAs I talk to bemoan the devaluation of their job (rightly so), but are happy to pick up £30k+ for spending 2 hours at a time reading a novel and putting out paper strips. I'm not judging their motives, but the parallels with other industries for that kind of job will leave them very exposed! Whether they then 'deserve' a pay increase in line with ATCOs who are working harder is one which will run and run..:=

[DC10RealMan]

I would like to add that ATSAs dont just put out strips and read books. It may be that the job on the sectors at Swanwick has been reduced to that, however there are other posts that ATSAs are responsible for such as the FISOs at LACC and ScATCC, Data prep in the simulators, ATC project specialists at LACC and soon at Manchester, Supervisors in the simulators, Lighting panel operators at LHR and LGW, AIS, Flow Unit Coordinators at Swanwick, and I am sure that there are lots of other posts requiring specialised knowledge, training, and skill which are ATSA posts. I feel that some critics of ATSA personnel are being a little economical with the facts to prove their point. If I took a similar line one might draw attention to ATCOs who work in offices doing "stuff" that might easily be done by a proper administrator who would work without the benefit of NOS or a top of the scale ATCO I or ATCO II salary. I do not believe that having been an ATCO makes for, or can justify, the salary scales if one works within an adminisrative enviroment.

[Jerricho]

DC10, you're preaching to the choir about ATCOs as management. Certain people do make good managers, and others don't. IMHO, management positions do require "specialist" knowledge in just that, management. You may be a sh!t hot controller, but allocating resources and managing people are totally different skills. But as is highlighted when a VN is published for a position, a knowledge of ATC procedures and systems is often required.

However, to throw you argument into the ring isn't the issue. Staffing, rostering, budgets, resource allocation and all that stuff grouped into the "management box" is pretty much standardised. The percentage increase in traffic movements and complexity of ATC is something else.

[Dances with Boffins]

Eye in the Sky

I am starting to sound like an evangelist, but our management here have already explained to us about the last couple of pay awards, especially the last one.
When the great and the good said they had no more dosh, and then lo and behold, more appeared, they borrowed it from the banks. Total cost to the company of £50 million that hadn't been budgeted for, over the 5 year cost period. That is a heavy deficit in the coffers that we could probably do without. What they neglected to do was tell us at the time that this is what they were doing, and so left us all believing that they were either
a] incompetent at maths or
b] lying to us when they said we were broke.

So they borrowed the cash, and we got our last 2 year deal, eventually. Borrowing money for the wages is a BAD thing. Ask any accountant. Good simile is if you try putting the family holiday on your mortgage every year - eventually you get a nice suntan, but your negative equity guts you.
If we all push hard, we could probably get the top-brass to borrow again, which would leave the company even less stable.
Weak management = we all lose.
Strong management [dreaming now:= ] = we don't gain as much.

I'm all for a bit of robust negotiation, 'cos I'm basically a greedy sod. There is IMHO a limit to how hard we should push our masters into the mud, in punishment for something that was thrust upon them as much as it was thrust upon us.

So to return to the thread, WP is a good thing to negotiate over. Fair pay for fair work etc etc. Yes some ATSAs do sit around for some of the time, until the electronic thingie goes tech, then they work their collective a:mad: s off to keep it all together. Some ATCOs never see the light of radar, and sit behind desks pushing paper and getting operational money for it. It's called life, and if one group starts to demand more, then some other group will get less. If the more is a big more, then the less will hurt someone, and that is not a good thing.


DWB:cool:

[Yellow Snow]

Halo is, as always, slobbering over pictures of men with their tales out!:} chomp

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Christine Hamilton !!!:oh:
Christine Hamilton !!!:oh:
Christine Hamilton !!!:oh:

[not a scooby]

Folks
Someone enlighten me, AVA agreement runs out at the end of Dec:03, certainly Lacc + CC & probably to a lesser degree SCACC & the airfields have required these shifts, not only just to make the place work, but to allow simulation etc.

Does anyone else see the possibility of a " big stick" with which to approach management?????????

or will we be keeping our " powder dry" yet again.

[1261]

Airfields? AAVAs? Ha, ha, ha, ha......!!!!!!

[Bright-Ling]

Airfields?? AAVAs?? Plenty being given out at LHR!!!!

B-L

[1261]

LL and ????????????????

[Gonzo]

How many airfields do standard ATCO overtime?

[1261]

It's certainly available at PH (on an ad-hoc basis, in my three-and-a-half years here I think I've been offered it three times) but since the AAVA agreement came in very few people have been prepared to do any (for obvious reasons - in my case it amounts to about £80 per shift, after Gordon Brown's had his paws in it!).

There is some simmering resentment about the way that the supposedly "national" agreement was implemented; but then we're nowhere near as short of staff as the southern units are.

I wonder why that is?

[Arkady]

AVAAs

"Does anyone else see the possibility of a " big stick" with which to approach management?????????"

It was a big stick with which to approach management after the last pay deal but the rank and file chose to take the money instead.

[Gonzo]

we're nowhere near as short of staff as the southern units are. I wonder why that is?

Ooooh, that old can of worms!!!!!! :E

You can understand why management would be unwilling to set up an AAVA structure if ATCOs are prepared to do standard overtime already

[1261]

Yeah, old fashioned me. I thought that a national agreement was a national agreement - but as a young whippersnapper I've obviously much to learn.

[Gonzo]

Hey, don't make me feel old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:oh:

[250 kts]

Can't use the "big stick" of AAVAs too much though in terms of the 2004 pay rise though because the other negotiating groups will jump straight on the band-waggon and demand the same basic rise-and not have to do anything for it.

Unfortunate but true.

And yes it was a national deal but it does say in the agreement quite clearly that it is at management discretion. However whilst there are people prepared to do extra hours at staff handbook rates then the pressure will never be put on the local management to anything other than to go for the cheapest option.

[terrain safe]

AAVAs are not generally used at Airports but staff working on days off on non-operational guff to try and keep managements backs covered most certainly is used. But the best bit is when because of all the days in lieu still owed people can't take their leave and so end up carrying 30 or 40 days over and then management complain about that!! You really can't make it up. They are complete idiots so why do we have to take a less than inflation pay rise (a negative pay rise?) to keep them above water. It's their fault they try and run things with insufficient support operationally but if you want a paper clip there are 15 people to see and meetings to be had before you get it.

I feel much better with that off my chest:D :D

[Me Me Me Me]

Money money money... give me money! More money!

Who's getting what? I want it too... but more of it!!

It's Soooooooooooooooo unfair!!

Nobody appreciates me, nobody loves me... I want to be loved...

But screw you all... give me more MONEY!!!!

[Nogbad the Bad]

Well said terrain safe !!!

:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

Sadly it's always been the case, and forever will be so, which is why I empathise with Roger Out's post !

[viaEGLL]

im a bit behind does anybody have any recent update of whats on the table for the pay deal that we are supposed to get in january? thanks

[1261]

Not enough.

Merry christmas.

[viaEGLL]

Thanks for the wealth of information are you in nats management:D :D :D

[250 kts]

Well come on Me,Me etc.- you obviously know the answer to this one as you obviously believe from your post that whatever is on the table is acceptable!!

[viaEGLL]

Ask a simple question get a stupid answer:mad: :mad: :mad:

[250 kts]

I asked a rep yesterday and it looks like this:

2 year offer.

3% in year 1 followed by RPI+ 0.75% in year 2.

This would be payable to all of the negotiating groups.

BUT

NATS want a commitment from the ATCOs to extend/renew the AAVA scheme and also to link it to the proposed restructuring.

So what do ATCOs get extra for the strings attached which apply only to them-Sweet FA as far as I can see!!

[Gonzo]

renew the AAVA scheme and also to link it to the proposed restructuring.

Thin end of the wedge?

[viaEGLL]

Well i wont be voting for that one here we go again should get it sorted out by sep 04:suspect: :suspect: :suspect: Oh and dont agree any deal on AAVA and then what will they do perhaps be pro-active for once!!! Oh no to late:D :D :D

[Nogbad the Bad]

250 kts, that offer stinks.

Is your source reliable ?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[250 kts]

Well he's a rep who is usually reliable and i have no reason to doubt him this time.

Shall we take that to be a rejection Nog?????:) :)

[Nogbad the Bad]

Lemme think about that for a millisecond.... :8

[not a scooby]

would i be right in assumming that our illustrious leaders, of our powder dry union, truely believe management, that they are actually " broke" this year. A poor state of affairs really, well I suppose professional managers, on personal contracts will shortly be departing the building , so to speak!!!!!!!!!!!, but then again maybe not.
If we are broke, but we all worked our socks off moving more & more of the wrong type of revenue earning " blips", this year & expect to do the same next, how the **** are we ever going to get into profit & afford a sensible pay award?

Perhaps we will just extend the AAVA agreement to help out our management colleagues, just long enough to loose any advantage that we currently hold, surely not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[qwerty2]

The Public Accounts Committee report shows that we're not broke just in debt.
It says that 10% of our income goes into paying interest and this is planned to rise as more money is invested.

Well, if I were a Union Rep I'd be saying that it's time they invested in their loyal staff and created the incentive for talented young people to join the profession before the Retirement Bulge.

[Voroff]

Nats eh!

they ain't the only employer, well unless you're area and don't fancy the lowlands or canada.

however they don't bond you I think, It would be interesting to see how EMA-BHX or cardiff- bristol terms and conditions compare

[j17]

According to radio 4 this morning Mr Everret has reiceved a pay rise of just over 40% during the last 12 months.

what no money ,depends on who you ask I suppose

[saintex2002]

...Sorry from a poor froggy ATCO, just tell me what does following initials mean :
- in PAY/WP : WP ?
- in AAVA Scheme : AAVA ?
Thanks for your help

[1261]

WP = Working Practices
AAVA = ATCO Additional Voluntary Attendance (overtime, in other words)

[DC10RealMan]

I cannot see the problem with Mr Everitts 40% pay increase. He has been responsible for increasing productivity with the same number of staff or fewer by the use of overtime(AAVA), keeping paylevels below inflation, pension contribution holiday, reducing non ATC staff and therefore reducing the wage bill, reducing expenditure by not allowing liaision visits and/or fam flights. Oh yes, and rapidly increasing traffic levels as well. I think that he is worth every penny!!!

[Jerricho]

"Management would like to inform that in the latest cost adjustments, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off"

[BuzzLightyear]

I seem to remember having all these discussions two years ago...everyone saying "I won't vote for it"...."lets show them some real power...".

Then off course the Southern units get offered a nice little earner in the form of hundreds of pounds for AVAA and all of a sudden the poxy deal that we all didn't want last time and were so vociferous about rejecting was accepted....cos we all know that the real power base of the Union is somewhere south of the Thames and if management keep them happy then it gets through. Hence mega buck AVAA and everyone else gets offered standard overtime if lucky but more usually a Day In Lieu...and no buy back of some stupid amounts of DIL accrued.

I don't grudge you the money guys...have worked there and wouldn't go back if you paid me...even for mega buck AVAA ;) ...but for heavens sake how about some unity on this issue...how about stopping all the in-fighting that appears to be going on between ATCO, ATSA, TELS and support staff grades.Show a united front and actually fight for what we want together. You can bet your bottom dollar that senior management somewhere will read this and will be p:mad: sing themselves laughing at the way all this bickering is going on...they don't need to divide and rule, we appear to be doing it all by ourselves.

As for the company being in debt...it certainly didn't stop some SMG members taking a nice big fat bonus/pay off cheque...so if the money is there for that why shouldn't we all be renumerated handsomely?

In the meantime I'll look forward to my back pay in July ;)

[Air Show Bob]

from one of our reps today the next meeting is scheduled for the 22nd December. Apparently at the last meeting we were "worlds apart". The rep also said that NATS wanted the AVA agreement taken into the WP so it couldn't be used as a lever at every subsequent pay talks to extract more money.

With the AVA agreement due to run out on the 1st Jan, that gives them about 9 days to get it through before we effectively begin an overtime ban I suppose. Or are we keeping our powder dry?:hmm:

[flowman]

Why go ahead with the overtime ban? It's the only way you guys can enhance your pay packet, and its the only way management can minimise the impact of previous mistakes on the travelling public.
More delays will do nothing for your cause, except maybe make you some enemies. You are doing a good job propping up the system which I am sure has not gone unrecognised by our pilot colleagues. Many operators are creaking under the financial strains of the last couple of years, why be part of something that could push some over the edge.
Keep doing the overtime then YOU can use it as a lever. Take the money while it's there.
Just my two bobs worth.
Standing by to be "corrected", over.
:uhoh:

[Me Me Me Me]

In response:

No I'm not totally happy with what's on offer either. However... yet again I fell I have to remind some that this is a 'cost of living' rise and so is not related to how you are rated in the performance of your job. So saying 'we deserve more 'cause we work really hard', whilst true I'm sure, isn't really valid in this discussion.
As a cost of living increase, then I think that demanding a rise well in excess of inflation - when the average salary in NATS is already way over national average, is a bit of a cheek. So realistically I think you're looking at getting something between 3% and 4%.
Didn't say I was happy with it but that's the way it is.

For those wanting to rant.. I think the story of Mr E's 40% rise is inaccurate. Jeez... if he got that he'd earn almost as much as you do!!

I agree with the post asking for all the in-fighting to stop and for everyone to stick together and squeeze a little more out for everyone. We all have mortgages, bills etc to pay and the cost of living goes up for all of us the same.

[hatsoff]

I think the story of Mr E's 40% rise is inaccurate. Jeez... if he got that he'd earn almost as much as you do!!

I hope it's inaccurate.
If I recall from memory he was paid £325,000 last year.
That's a lot of money to manage a small organisation like NATS and exceeds the UK average if you want to compare it to other companies with corresponding turnover or staff levels etc.

[Connex]

MMMM -

Quote “I agree with the post asking for all the in-fighting to stop and for everyone to stick together and squeeze a little more out for everyone. We all have mortgages, bills etc to pay and the cost of living goes up for all of us the same.”

Tried this line of reasoning near the start of this thread. Falls on deaf (ATCO) ears, unfortunately. The vast majority of ATCOs and their Union will never agree to the principle of all staff receiving equivalent percentage pay rises, let alone agree to work with others to achieve it. They insist that they are "worth more" than the rest of us - so don't waste your time asking for their help.

As an aside, I notice that information on the ATSA negotiation is virtually non-existent, as usual. Anybody have any up-to-date info relating to this?

[Scott Voigt]

Connex;

Why should all recieve the same sort of pay raise when not all do the same sort of work? It would be nice if everyone could get as much as possible, but I don't see any reason to tie one bargaining unit to another one...

regards

Scott

[Connex]

Scott,

There are no friends where money is concerned! That’s why the different grades within any Company should not have different bargaining powers.The issue of pay, and who gets what, is probably the most devisive topic in UK employment history. I assert the case, from a personal point of view, for equal percentage pay rises to all workers within any given Company solely on the basis that if all receive the same, then the workforce cannot/will not split within its own ranks over any issue of favouritism/elitism or whatever. Therefore the workforce, as a bargaining unit, has far more strength than one which continually argues within itself.

I have always thought that this was one of the prime motives for being involved with Unions – the MEMBERSHIP benefits equally from any negotiated agreement. Any negotiations on anything are done with the interests of everybody to the fore, and on a level playing field. There are then no grounds for us to squabble internally over “who got what”. Like I stated before, pay rises are fundamental to our way of covering rises in cost of living, which is the same for everybody. Acknowledgement for responsibility is already shown by paying the ATCOs a much higher basic wage than other staff, not to mention the additional payments they receive for training, LCE etc – things which many of us have to do, but do not get paid for. A 3% rise on my wages is not as much as 3% on an ATCO’s wages – the ATCO gets more – I accept this, and I am sure that many others would accept this principle also, so what’s the problem?

NATS’ staff biggest problem is that, apart from the old “us and them” syndrome (which DOES still exist at certain Units), we also have more than one Union. These Unions do not co-operate with each other, to the detriment of all NATS staff. Yes, the ATCOs may very well end up with more cash in their pockets, but its all achieved at a cost of this continual in-house wrangling, and the “Us and Them” scenario flourishes once more. A single ATC Union would/could do more for all of us than the present set-up. The only way to attempt to resolve any issue of division is to at least first try to unite those involved. One Union for all would be a way of starting this process, and getting the workforce actually working and co-operating together for the first time in the truest sense.

Will it happen? Will it f***!! Ask the ATCOs.
:hmm:

[Eira]

One union for us all would be an excellent idea, it has been mooted many times, however who would it be? Regrettably many of the grades within NATS would not fit under the Prospect banner , and ATCOS certainly do not fit within the PCS groupings of workers. We are not a large group of people so it sounds like a good idea but in practise there are to many problems.
The them and us I know works at some units , but at the smaller regional airports where we rely so much more on our ATSA support staff it is far less noticeable.
As much as I understand Connex and all ATSAs regarding having an across the board pay rise there has to be recognition of the fact that whereas ATCOs jobs get busier and busier ATSAs work is diminishing and responsibilities and tasks are also falling. Connex I am sure you may disagree with that fact but it is something that must be fully recognised that with greater automation there is sadly a lesser requirement for your support and we as ATCOS have taken on many of the roles you may have previously done for us.
I personally prefer to see a standard pay rise but I think those days are disappearing.

[Connex]

Eira –

I agree with some of what you have said in your post. However,

Quote “Regrettably many of the grades within NATS would not fit under the Prospect banner..”

Why not? Because we’re not ATCOs, I suppose? The problems and difficulties you refer to stem from the fact that ultimately it is the ATCO grades alone that do not wish to integrate. Any change to the current set-up would be seen as “demotion”, or detrimental to the ATCO cause. Prospect/Gatco are exclusively ATCO domains – the “Old Boys Club” in a different guise. These two Unions (is Gatco actually a Union?) appear to prefer to maintain a policy of separatism within the UK ATC world. I have always thought that Unions fundamentally believe in strength in numbers, and a Union will have a far more powerful “effect” if the whole workforce is working together under a common banner. Having more than one Union representing our workforce simply causes problems between the workers, as we see regularly, but especially when the Pay Talks start.

The logistics in organising a merger of the ATCO Unions and the other ATC Union members would be difficult, I accept, (but not impossible – a totally new, different Union, perhaps?) – except for one vital point. The ATCO Union(s) and its ATCO membership don’t want us, or anything to do with us, in any shape or form. They think we will diminish their bargaining power. They may not actually say it, but they think they really CAN do without the rest of us – for everything. (I hope the “new technology” that is planned to replace us is up to it – for your sakes!) Let’s face it, even if we all get on swimmingly within the workplace, it always goes sour when it comes to co-operation with regards to pay/WP.

As far as ATSAs are concerned – at the present time, and especially at Union level, we need to be far more determined in our actions if we want to see our conditions maintained or even improved – and don’t expect any help or support from the ATCOs or their Union – you might as well pi** into the wind. Speaking as a serving member of the “ATC Team” this is not a good situation to be in – I wish it were different – but when it comes down to ATCO/ATSA co-operation, we are all our own worst enemies, and I do not see things changing just yet. Roll on retirement (redundancy?!!) and get me outta here!

Quote “…we as ATCOS have taken on many of the roles you may have previously done for us.”

I may have lost certain tasks which were in my original job remit, but I haven’t seen any evidence whatsoever of ATCOs doing my jobs, old or new, at my workplace. As for “diminishing” ATSA work – my job functions may have changed somewhat over the last few years, but I am busier now, and required to work harder, than ever before.

A fair reason, I think, to expect a fair (equal?) pay rise.

[Scott Voigt]

For those who don't think that one union can't mediate for different aviation professionals within Air Traffic Control and the countries airspace system. Just go to the NATCA website (natca.org) and take a look at all the bargaining units that we represent. Would probably be more, but some already had a bargaining unit prior to us coming along <G>. It can be done.

As to negotiating the same contract. I see it from an ATCO perspective and wouldn't want to be tied to the same personel issues. As an ATCO I don't want to be able to be forced to work longer shifts that the office staff or engineers can be made to work, or to even do it for comp time versus overtime. There are a lot of other issues too, but you get the general idea...

regards

Scott

PS. Our website is a bit short right now. We are in the middle of changing out servers so all the features are not working.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Once again I will ask you to please stick to the thread, and not hijack it. Connex, you obviously have very strong feelings about the differentials between the ATCO and ATSA grades. Please, if you want to continue, start another thread on the subject ?

Thanks.

[Gonzo]

So, back to the thread.....

Any news from the meetings which I've been told were going on from Monday to Wednesday this past week?

[Connex]

Nogbad -

OK - soapbox put away for Christmas! But, as this thread is about pay (ATCO and ATSA) I would still like some info on the ATSA side of the negotiations from somebody - preferably from PCS! And even more preferably, at my workplace, IN WRITING!!, rather than on an Internet forum. Any info out there?

[A I]

"No Comment" was apparently the official word from a senior NATS manager who might have been at the talks yeterday. However we did glean that there are more meetings arranged for 2004. So no overtime agreement then chaps.

A I

[250 kts]

It would appear that talks broke down. There was no extension to the present AAVA agreement and so only those days volunteered AND already paid for can be worked in January. I think this means that LACC is the ONLY unit that AAVAs can continue to be worked.

No further meetings are scheduled until early January.

Just for once Prospect appears not to have capitulated-maybe the powder is ever so slightly moist!!!!

[Me Me Me Me]

Sorry CONNEX... It seems that it's on-topic to rant about how much more money you want but off-topic to disagree. :rolleyes:

Scott, the point being made about uniting over pay is that this is NOT a negotiation over the relative value of jobs and how highly they should be remunerated - it's simply about addressing the effects of inflation and keeping salaries in line with the national increase in the cost of living.

If ATCOs and their union believe that ATCOs are generally paid poorly then this is NOT the place to deal with that.

In answer to the query over the ATSA negotiations - the answer is that all negotiations with all parties are in exactly the same state. For once I must give credit to management for holding all parts of the company together when the rest of us couldn't. They accept that ATCOs want to meet them separately but make them look more than a little silly by insisting they will make the same offer on basic pay to everyone... thus negating the need for separate talks.

There are meetings going on today.. but don't hold your breath for an outcome!

[Jerricho]

Hey Con-Man

Does this make Me Me Me Me one of those "cronies" you were bitching about?

[tobzalp]

I strongly advise against individual contract being bargained by individuals. Wait tell next time they come up for renewal and see just how bad you screwed you profession.

[250 kts]

Me,Me,

Your last paragraph is a long way from being correct.

How can you say that all the negotiations are in the same state unless you are in a position to attend both sets of meetings?-and I suspect you don't!! There is much more to these negotiations than just pay-much of which is specific to the individual groups therefore the negotiations cannot be in exactly the same state.

The ATCOs do not look silly as although the claims were the same in terms of the demand it was a requirement that the overall aim was for an equal settlement for both groups and management have stated that is the way they would like to handle it.

And if this is about the effects of inflation and cost of living-as it always is at this time of year, how come 2 years ago PCS voted to accept the offered rise,which was obviously good enough for them, but when the ATCOs held out PCS then demanded the same rise despite no member ever having to threaten any sort of action?

I don't believe anyone has said that ATCOs are poorly paid but there is no doubt that some of the ATSAs are now extremely well paid for what they do-especially at LACC where the task has changed considerably.

No, we won't hold our breath for an outcome-could it possibly be because PCS are waiting for the outcome of the ATCO talks so they can jump on the coat-tails once again???

[Jerricho]

Not too sure how many NATS guys and girls have registered and check the NATS forum, but Mr Connex has made it very clear his thoughts on the previous pay deal (Link here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111857) You'll have to forgive and ignore the childish to-ing and fro-ing, and Con's blatent xenophobia......can't make a valid point, I'll try and insult somebody's nationality.)

I'd watch out 250kts, he's out there somewhere!

[Me Me Me Me]

No, possibly it could not be...

As I said.. the negotiations with all sides ON BASIC PAY are in the same state because the same offers have been made.

There are sectional claims with differing negotiations for each group, but this has always been the case and has been managed in the past without division of the overall negotiation teams.

ATCO working practices - for example - (am I back on topic? :} ) is not an issue for the PCS negotiating team. Everyone agrees with that.. but that's a separate issue. The basic cost-of-living pay rise is something for every NATS employee and every NATS employee should be equally represented for it.

Incidentally... I've not been involved in ANY of the meetings, but I do read and listen, which is all you have to do if you want to know what's going on.

[Nogbad the Bad]

(am I back on topic? )

Sarcy little brat aren't you ? :p

[250 kts]

OK. So a way around this could be that each year NATS pays us a cost of living rise exactly equal to the rise in inflation without the need for a specific annual claim and then the individual groups are left to put in separate claims according to increases in productivity/WP changes and anything else they can think up.

Mmm, from an ATCO point of view this sounds OK-what do you all reckon?

[Arkady]

.....lights blue touch paper and stands well back.

[055166k]

I didn't arrive on yesterday's banana boat, and I know our Union representatives didn't either. Short of actually chaining controllers to the tubes galley-fashion I think we've given quite enough productivity-wise. Be aware that most financial forecasts indicate a slow incremental rise in interest rates and inflation in the next two years. Be aware that the government's new method of calculating inflation will result in a numerically lower inflation figure than that which would result from a calculation using today's model [By as much as a whole percentage point]. In other words, and to the best of my own calculation, my
guess on what I think the current offer might be, would be a real value reduction in pay of 0.9% in the first year and a 1.7% reduction after two years. Support the Union and try to persuade the non-union members towards 100% membership.....they take the money, now is payback time. Don't be in any hurry to settle, let it run to May or June, then we'll see who starts sweating first.

[055166k]

By the way, last week we were working 11 controllers for 8 positions as usual....about 3 of us approaching time limit....guess what?.....the OPM was supposed to be on the blink....we were instructed to remove our electronic identity cards from the slot adjacent to the radar display so that the system could be re-set. Eventually got a relief break....brand new system then apparently OK. Couple of hours later and approaching electronic "time-out" again, system has "another" glitch requiring all electronic tags to be removed so that the system can be re-set. [OPM=Operational Position Monitor]

[250 kts]

055166K,

I suggest you forward the details to your rep to make sure there is not a trend across the watches.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Definitely !!!!!!!!!!

[flowman]

So roughly how many AAVAs were made per month?
Assuming there will be not one single extra ATCO in on overtime in February, what will be the shortfall in staff?
There were regulations in place for Daventry and Lakes on Boxing Day because of staff shortages (assistants?). They caused an alarming amount of delay for what would normally be a quiet day, so I would underline the fact that something needs to be sorted out for ALL groups of staff if chaos is to be averted.
Happy New Year? Unlikely!:rolleyes:

[TrafficTraffic]

Is there still a NATS forum somewhere without any threads?

;)

Happy New Year

[VectorLine]

Is there still a village somewhere in Oz missing its idiot?

[TrafficTraffic]

Oh I must have misunderstood - I am here enjoying my life - earning a goodly sum with pretty good conditions - not constantly whinging about my Pay or WPs and I am the village idiot!

Take a look in the mirror.

[Me Me Me Me]

To be fair, he's got a point... ;)

[flowman]

TrafficTraffic 1, VectorLine 0 :O

[Nogbad the Bad]

WHY DOES TRAFFIC TRAFFIC ALWAYS HAVE TO HIJACK A THREAD WITH HIS BARBED AND CYNICAL POSTS ???

IS THERE NO MODERATOR HERE ?????

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[eastern wiseguy]

He is right though ...we could always adjourn to the NATS site...:confused:

[Arkady]

Never thought I'd say this....I agree with TT.

This thread should be on the NATS forum.

[TrafficTraffic]

I must apologise Nobbad I didnt mean to Hijack your thread I just thought perhaps it might be better suited to the NATS forum (if it still exists - for some reason they wont let me join ;) )

I will not post again in this thread* especially with my barbed and cynical atitude. :{










* Not this year anyway :ok:

[DC10RealMan]

Re Flowmans earlier post, he is right it was a lack of Assistants that caused all the problems

[250 kts]

Apparently Prospect and Management go into battle again this coming week. Has the lack of AAVAs started to bite yet or is that a pleasure we have to wait for?

[Findo]

250kts. By your statement you indicate you have never been a negotiator.

There is no "battle" this week. There is a negotiating a meeting. The purpose of which is to negotiate.

Lack of AAVAs biting ? Surely you dont want to gratuitously hurt our customers ? If the whole negotiation fails then we think about applying pressure in other ways. Until then lets hope a sensible offer is negotiated.

[250 kts]

Sorry Findo, it was kind of tongue in cheek. But it does seem that there is little room for manouevre when they are about to meet for the umpteenth time over 3 months.

No,it gives me no pleasure at all for the customers to be delayed but more than a little to see management squirm for once when they don't get their own way as the usually seem to do.

AAVAs are the biggest tool that the union has been presented with for many years and it must be used to maximum effect.

[Air Show Bob]

"the biggest tool that the union has been presented with for many years"

No I think he's one of our reps that's just been voted in actually, although I suspect the competition for that title may be quite stiff (no pun intended):) :)

[Arkady]

ASB

You, as a unit, voted for him/her. If this person is so unsuitable to represent your views what does that say about you? Or was he/she voted in unopposed? What does THAT say about you?

[Air Show Bob]

Arkady

Get a life. Its called humour.:ooh:

[Greebson]

Perhaps we need a battle, negotiation didn't get us anywhere the last time; or for that matter, doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere this time.

Up the spanish!

[Arkady]

Slagging off your Union Rep is not humorous. These people are volunteers doing a thankless task. They get plenty of undeserved stick simply because they are reps. They don't need cheap shots like that just so you can look like a funny man on Pprune.

Its not called humour its called sarcasm, wits lowest form.

[Air Show Bob]

Arkady

Get down off your high horse. You really are a sad and bitter old man.

Guess what? There is no Union rep been voted in - again its a joke - a play on words! Yes! sarcasm to lighten an otherwise dull subject.

Good to see you churn the old ones out "sarcasm, wits lowest form". It probably is to a dullard like you. God I bet the hours fly by in your company......


Then again I bet they don't !!

[Arkady]

So you weren't having a pop at an individual but at all union reps?

I don't find it funny, I really don't.

Why does standing up for the butt of your joke make me sad and bitter? (and old, where did that come from?)

[Air Show Bob]

Arkady forget it. So you don't find it funny :( :( I'm sure some others will ! Lets move on .....

[Arkady]

Agreed. Unless this is another joke.......?;)

[Findo]

I'm with Arkaday. Seen it, heard it and gave up as a rep after 17 years, part of it was because of "funny" comments like Air Bob's.:yuk:

[250 kts]

Bob,

Congratulations on almost killing a perfectly good thread!!

Do we know yet if any progress was made over the last 2 days?

[bagpuss lives]

According to my Union Rep today and in simple terms - no :(

[Arran's view]

I have been told there is to be another meeting tomorrow. Looks like there are some difficult obstructions to agreement.

[Third Party]

I have heard that NATS pay and WP was settled yesterday for ATCOs any details yet?:bored:

[radar707]

Not sure about settled, but there was something on the intranet regarding negotiations having finished and the union would be balloting members on the offer.

I would doubt that there will be anything too exciting on offer since NATS has been pleading poverty, my guess is they're looking to get AAVA's back through as soon as possible and want something put to the staff.

Unless it's anything decent then I'm sure that a NO vote will follow.

I've no doubt that someone out there in Pprune land will know details of the offer and enlighten us, perhaps on the NATS forum so that discussions on the offer can be kept private. :) :) :)

[Findo]

The negotiations have finished and the final offer will be taken back to all the Trade Union Branch Executive Committees. They will then decide if they will recommended acceptance:ok: / be neutral:hmm: / recommend rejection:} of the various offers. The offer will go out to ballt with that BEC recommendation attached (and hopefully unit meetings to explain the details)

At that point it will be clear exactly what the basic pay offer is to all staff and what is being offered to settle the other issues under negotiation - Working Practices changes and ATCO structure.

All you have to do then is cast your vote if you are a Union member.

[VectorLine]

Been away for a while.

Looking forward to finding out what the offer is and what is tied in with it.

Going back a couple of pages now...

Traffic - thanks for your advice. I looked in the mirror - really liked what I saw. If you were referring to me when you were talking about whingeing about pay, please point out the post to me.

I don't ever remember complaining about how much I get paid for the little I do.

FlowMan - you really should extract youreself from traffics @rse - or do you find that statistics like traffic1 vectorline0 turns you on? do you keep copies of flight plans too? - muppet.

Oh that feels better - now, back to the topic.............

[Lon More]

Nogbad & Vectorline

If you don't like non NATS controllers, specifically TT and Flowman, airing their views on a thread whch is of very little relevance to most then I repeat the earlier suggestions that you take all the whinging about how poorly done by, in both financial and professional senses, you (non specifically) are, to the NATS Forum.

Lon

[Scott Voigt]

Lon;

If they take it to the NATS forum, then I can't watch the entertainment :E

regards

Scott

[BuzzLightyear]

Well if the Union are coming back with an offer then I guess we will be recommended to accept it as usual...best we can do blah blah...financial constraints blah blah...

Then off course this thread will urge everyone not to accept and everyone will say they are voting "No" and the deal will be accepted with a huge majority...

Cynical? ME?

Plus ca change mais le maime chose....or something :ouch:

[HounslowHarry]

So Buzz. I am assuming you are a NATS ATCO...

What do you think you are going to be offered? And what do you want?

HH

[Greebson]

I'd love to visit the NATS forum but I can never get on.

[TrafficTraffic]

Now Lon,

I think Vectorline will assume you are located in the same place as Flowman with those sort of comments, I can only assume in the interest of fair play and consistency that the Moderator will severly reprimand Vectorline for his insults.

And Scott

Its not so much entertainment reading Vectorlines attempts at intelligent conversation as my new years resolution** forbids me from enaging him in written combat.


** New years resolution = Rule 1.1.1.1a ) dont pick on people with obvious social or intellectual problems

P.s Vectorline if you liked what you saw in the mirror I really think your mirror needs to be calibrated


PPs I'd love to visit the NATS Forum too but for some reason I can never get on either
:hmm:

[250 kts]

So getting back to the thread!!

Assuming that we are to be balloted on the whole package ie. pay and structure-what do people expect to get as a rise?

Or is that the way to go-should we be balloted separately on pay and then on the other elements-I really don't know which way is best.

TT and Lon-please continue to comment if you so wish but I think it a bit rich to moan that the thread should be in the NATS forum. This sort of thread is interesting to a wider audience. You know full well that this thread is NATS related and YOU make the decision to read and contribute every time you log on. If you don't want to read NATS specific stuff you don't have to.

There are plenty more things going on in this world more important than where a thread sits on PPrune!!

[TrafficTraffic]

Valid points 250 kts - we dont have to read it if we dont want and for me it is actually the opposite. I think this is an important topic that does affect the wider ATC community. What concerns me is that you guys begged, bitched and pleaded for a NATS forum for just this sort of thing, therefore exculding us from any insight or input into topics like this. ( even if I am a pain in the arse).

There is a broad base of ATC experience here in PPRUNE and I am sure that you would get some great help from people that have had problems or situations like this before.

BUT you cant have it both ways - and then have people suggest how all important and world ending these topics are and how non-NATS people should stay out and the playground insults your colleague Vectorline resorts to makes me wonder......you said it yourself 250knots

There are plenty more things going on in this world more important than where a thread sits on PPrune!!

[flowman]

Definitely of interest to a wider audience! It's not only NATS employees who are affected by what goes on at London ACC. A couple of staff short has a severe impact on delays not only for UK inbounds but especially for the Atlantic westbounds.
So we listen and read with interest.
(Well to most of you anyway!)

[point5]

A whisper in my ear! 15% over next 2 yrs for ATCOs.
I wait with all for confirmation!

[Nogbad the Bad]

Just scrolled back. Lon More ...........

How DARE you accuse me of singling out people that are non-NATS !!!! I have NO IDEA who is NATS and who isn't - it doesn't mean a thing to me, we are all in the same job with exactly the same responsibilities.

Your post just goes to show the size of the chip on your shoulder !!!

(Expletives deleted !!!)

[Slippers]

Point5,

The whisperings I've heard are that the afore mentioned 15% will only apply to ATCOs at LACC, LTCC, LL. Others will get less depending on where their unit lies on a new graded scale.

Official announcements to be made during the coming week.

Interesting times ahead I feel.

Slippers

[zygote]

Don't forget the 05.30 starts at LACC

[055166k]

If there's any truth in your 15% rumour it shows how desperate management are for a two year deal. History tells us, however, that there will be more strings than a plate of spaghetti and the pay-out will be 1% this year, 1% next year until November, with the final 13% in December 2005......... I don't believe the figure.....but I eagerly await something in writing from the union. I hope you're all members by the way....you take the money.....join today if not.

[5milesbaby]

Rumours at our mill are that the pay deal will be almost 8% over two years, with points coming in February, April and several more.
On top of this those ATCO's working at units LACC/LTCC/EGLL will get an 8% bonus for WPP, but rumours of 5:30am spins amongst other changes are apparent. AAVA's are also rumoured to be in the region of £550 per shift pre-tax obviously, and that only those with FULL validations are eligible to apply (ie single sector valids now have a reason not to take another year to extend), that only 2 maximum each month, and no up front payments or commitments.
On the ATSA front, a deal of around 8% across 2 years also is possible, but their negotiations may be slightly behind those of the ATCO's. The ATCO's are also rumoured to have a further point that needs debating before finally agreeing to approach the members with the final offer.
As usual, and as is obvious, these are all unofficial observations and total rumours that may or may not have come from a union rep - I would post this soully on the NATS private forum, but that gets more publicity than this one, so no-one really uses it, sorry TT - you can always just ignore those topics not for you.

[BuzzLightyear]

HH

Now what were we all told at the College of Knowledge? Never assume ;)

Just a nice fair deal for all NATS staff, whether they are operational or not. One that is preferably not biased to the South East with all the AVAA, leave buy back available to ALL employees, not just those units where it suits, while the others do the same thing on overtime or a reward of a day in lieu.

I did ask Santa...but he just laughed. :D

Feel free to unleash the rant that I feel was about to be launched in my general direction.....now look who is assuming:D

[Connex]

Hello PCS. ATSA Pay deal!! As of tonight (13th) we've been told SFA. The members are waiting, and the rumour mill has started turning. So - what's the latest? Even if its bad, then lets hear it. The silence is deafening.

[Lon More]

Nogbad

Childish rant copied from a previous post by yourself

WHY DOES TRAFFIC TRAFFIC ALWAYS HAVE TO HIJACK A THREAD WITH HIS BARBED AND CYNICAL POSTS ???

IS THERE NO MODERATOR HERE ?????

If you care to remove your head from that dark place you have put it and read my post you will realise that I merely suggested that as you appeared to be unhappy about comments made on an open forum ( def.: a place of or meeting for open discussion) then it was time to move it.

If you can't stand the heat ....

Lon More. More than just an ATCO.

[Findo]

Details are out from management.

Take a 2 year deal.

Add together basic pay + payment for WPP + payment for introducing a five band ATCO structure based on units.

Haven't got the full details here but from memory

Band 1 Hurn, HQ Units, LACC and LTCC = 14% rise
Band 2 MACC and ScOACC = 10% rise

Differing rises for all the bands. I think BB and SS are band 3 but get bigger % than band 2.

Bottom of the pile are Lndn City, Luton, Southampton etc with not very much

No details about WPP changes so no idea what is being asked for in return for the offer.


No doubt someone will give the full details. Sorry if your unit is not here but only from memory of a quick run down of the details.

[radar707]

I sincerely hope that Prospect are not recommending this offer to the membership.

How many times have we raised issue at conference over 2 year pay deals:mad: :mad:

The regrading of various units is only going to cause a bigger split amongst ourselves. LACC will all say yeah we deserve it, we move the traffic and we have to take on board new WP, great gives us the dough.

Unfortunately the poor relations at the "NON IMPORTANT" airfields who hold dual validations working with various mixes of complex traffic situations, inside and outside CAS with all the other inherent difficulties associated with terrain, Class E airspace and God knows how many other things, get shafted.

But LACC say it's OK we deserve the money we move the traffic we have to take on board new WP, great, give us the dough.

Unfortunately the poor relations at the "NON IMPORTANT" airports have spent the last 10 years with EVER CHANGING WP, moving MORE AND MORE traffic, but we NEVER got the dough, we never got the recoginition and now to cap it all we're gonna get shafted by the union.. Airports have nothing left to give with regards to WP

God help Prospect if they recommend this offer, you can be sure there will be a whole load of resignations from Airport controllers and I can assure you mine will be at the top of the list. :mad: :mad:

For too long Airports have played second fiddle to the Area guys, all you Union People out there take heed, WE ARE NOT HAPPY

[bagpuss lives]

I don't wish to enter into the LACC vs The World debate that frequently rears it's ugly head around these parts but.....

Someone today distributed some interesting facts and figures at work the point of which was that "we" at MACC move more traffic per controller than both LACC and ScOACC. That is statistical fact.

I don't propose for one single second that that makes us "better" or in any way more worthy to the company.

What I do propose is an equal increase in pay for all - old fashioned I know. This new offer is a perfect illustration of "divide and rule" and feeds the fire of friction once again between units.

At least the chaps and chapesses in Band 3 get a somewhat fairer deal (rightly so). That's about the only positive I can think of at the moment.

Also, for the benefit of Connex and his colleagues, the ATSA pay deal is, I believe, almost the same. 3.7% (ish) for 2004 and RPI +0.6% for 2005. Not sure about the specifics at this stage though - sorry.

[Barny F Rough]

There's a thread just started on the banding...add your 2p.


NATS Airport Re-grading (for pay) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115343)

[2 six 4]

Pretty straightforward this pay stuff. :O

We will do the 0530 starts and changes to rosters. Do we deserve 14%. Yes we do

So what do we have to do to get it ? Just keep on doing what we do and ....... shaft the airports again ???

DOH :} :} :}

Does everyone deserve 14% YES THEY DO


Lets just kick the whole lot out. :mad: :mad:

[halo]

Well how about if some of you at your units come and train in the tower at Heathrow??

We are desperately short of people and will continue to be for a very long time..... Sadly, bar one or two, nobody at any other airfield units want to come to Heathrow.... Would somebody please tell us why?? If it takes a crap load of money to get people to think differently about coming to the unit then thats what it takes!! If you aren't willing to come and give it a shot then please keep your mouths shut!!

In addition to this NATS is now a commercial business, and just like all the other commercial businesses they will pump money into the areas that produce the greatest return for them, and unfortunately for other units that means LACC, TC and EGLL. Nobody is disputing the fact that every single NATS unit has its own complexity, traffic levels, airspace issues, etc, but for a change NATS has decided to look at the units that produce the biggest financial return first, which will hopefully lead to all other unit issues being dealt with. We can all sympathise with Farnborough and their high radar workload, but what it comes down to is the fact that most of the people who use that service don't actually pay for it!!

[Connex]

niteflite01 -

thanks for the info - still nothing announced ATSA-wise at my Unit as of 2200 tonight.:hmm:

[Greebson]

Halo
nice report well presented (if not with a slightly I'm better than you tinge). But get your head out of your a@@e and look around and you'll find a lot of other units are desperately short of staff too.
You sound like just the sort of work colleague/team player that management are trying to get there claws into.

[Arkady]

Greebson, fair point.

This new structure would suggest that NATS wishes to address the staff shortages at LTCC, LACC and EGLL by encouraging people to move from other units while, presumably, sending more ab-initios to the lower banded stations.

Will it work? If the new structure is adopted will those of you working in a Band 4 unit or below consider a move to a Band 5 unit?

[flowman]

Halo
I applied to go to EGLL from a regional airport. After 10 years of applying and waiting I finally got my posting to Heathrow.
Imagine missing 10 years of housing inflation in London and then trying to find somewhere to live.
No they will not apply a "crap load of money", no they would not help any more than if I had moved from West Drayton, no they do not give a sh!t about causing financial hardship.
For all my ATC career I genuinely wanted to work at your unit (still do), but NATS management made it impossible.:mad:
Bunch of :mad:unts.
Don't for one minute think that more pay for the EGLL/EGTT guys is to attract people from other units, because it isn't, and it doesn't. It is simply a continuation of the divide and rule tactics that they have been using for years. Screw the regional guys, they don't matter- save some money there and give it to the area boys to keep them happy(?).
A bit naive Halo, but keep up the good work. It's a labour of love!

[intentionally blank]

To attract staff to a particular unit you pay lump sums. This is infinitly flexible and will certainly solve your problem. Unless you are a TU rep and you want a pay rise without moving.

This is not about improving mobility but about getting pay rises for Southerners.

LEST WE FORGET.

It was not too long ago that we were all ATCO 2s. 2s already get up to a third more than 3s. HOW MUCH MORE DO YOU WANT, YOU MONEY GRABBING TW*TS?

Come on! Which of you is going to try and justify getting more than double the pay rise I'll get?

As for EGLL. I won't come because I don't like London. Secondly I have a life up here, partner with career too etc... Cash isn't the issue.

But short of staff?
So how come you manage to get a sleep on every other night shift? You do still roster three on nights for one position don't you??? Seems to me you aren't short staffed just have a F*ckwit doing your roster.

New pay agreement is just money for the boys. The union has managed to replce management as Airports enemy number 1. Well done, at least when I resign from Prospect I'll make a few hundred quid every year.

[Geffen]

intentionally blank,
3 on the nights is necessary when we have two positions open until at least 11pm and then open two in the morning from 6am, now how exactly does two atcos run a nightshift, it don't work is a pain and then you need a supervisor for all the desk work, three is what is needed either end, yeah we don't have any real traffic through the night but either end can be real busy.

[intentionally blank]

Geffen,

You see Geffen I don't care you sleep all night. Good for you!! But then you don't care I work on my night shifts. Nor do you care tha i get no EGs and thus work longer hours than you. But most importantly this "Clear and Transparent Strucures formula" doesn't take into account the fact that you get to spend a third of your shifts in or near a bed.

To fix this iniquity what you do is bring an ATCO in at 6 and keep another later until 11. Go on, justify your pay rise.


I now hope that they do that (if this rise goes through) just to make you work as many hours as we do. Except knowing how skilled our negotiating team are we will certainly find that 0530 starts appear (with extra credits for the hours worked) at the Band 5 units (not CATC or HQ) and they have been rewarded for them. Then they will start to appear at the Band 1 units only we won't have been paid for them.



This is always the outcome of supporting divisive solutions.

And what will happen in 4 years time when it is discovered that this solution to lack of mobility hasn't solved anything?

I Know another pay rise for the BEC. Sorry Band 4 & 5 units.

Anyway Geffen no problems with anything else i said then???

[Geffen]

Why is justification required? We all (atco's everywhere) work hard and have alot of responsibility. There needs to be some difference in the grading of units, personally I have never understood why someone at Southampton(for example) is on the same scale and pay as those at Glasgow(for example) But they were/are. Nothing is perfect.

As for the nightshift we have someone stay until 11 as contingency if more positions are needed to be kept open. And the morning watch manager comes in at 6, again if needed due staff shortages.

hey just another pt. We all get paid damn good salaries whatever unit you work at, we get good holidays and lots of time off. We shouldn't knock it when we have it so good.

[Jerricho]

Yawn...............that's very constructive of you Intentionally Blank. I'm sure you you wouldn't have a problem what so ever in addressing "a Southerner" as a money grabbing ****" face to face. Give yourself a pat on the back for providing everybody who isn't a NATS employee a good laugh, especially when they see this sort of in house bickering and school yard name calling.

As for EGLL. I won't come because I don't like London. Secondly I have a life up here, partner with career too etc... Cash isn't the issue.

And then you go and contradict yourself. Cash isn't an issue you say. What little credibility you attempted to achieve with your argument has very quickly evaporated.

[SonicTPA]

Now that this banding is coming in, it is suppsed to be easier to move to a new unit in order to go up a band.

There might be room at the top at EGLL (been there, done that) but lets be honest - just how many people from the bottom rung of the ladder would be able to work their way up. It would take ages, and who would fill in the gaps at the bottom.

Will all college trainees go only to Band 1 units. Will they have a choice? Is it fair if one goes to LL and one goes to LF, when neither chose to go to either of those units.

Lets say all Atco 3's on the bottom band now ask to go to a higher banded unit. It's not going to happen. We already have people trying to get out, and they're not being allowed. So it can only get worse...

Sonic

Ps, as for more controllers at LL - improve your training, and you won't chop 12 trainees in one year. There was a vast difference in training across the watches, which resulted in some people validating and being watched while valid, while more competent people were chopped.

[AREA52]

It would appear from reading this thread that people are forgetting that although some units gain more than others, everyone gains something! The whole idea of the structure is to provide differentials between units, so that people can make choices about whether or not they wish to work at a busy or quieter unit, or whether they are happy working and living where they currently are. That should be their choice!

In the initial stages, this may prove difficult until the numbers start to build up at the lower end of the scale. Some people may wish to go to a slightly lower banded unit which could allow someone else to move up however.

It has to be said that some grading issues should be addressed, namely CATC which should in reality not be a band 5 unit. However, NATS are unable to recruit a suitable number of instructors and therefore need to somehow try to attract more people, backward though it may seem that they are rewarded by quicker progression than any other operational unit (LACC,LTCC &EGLL included, and they get NOS:mad:

However, don't forget that anyone with the required experience can apply and it may also prove an option if you no longer feel able to perform operationally or have a medical condition which prohibits live duties. (As a number of the current instructors prove)

Some units may feel they have been hard done by, but are their rosters or conditions changing as a result of this deal? In effect, you still increase your basic pay for no change, so if you are not happy now, you should have been less happy before this offer?

Some ATCO3 units are also gaining ground here, so don't be too quick to throw stones at the larger units.

IB - the BEC consists of representatives from all over the country, so I suggest you take up any issues you have with your relevant BEC rep who should have been representing their members views accordingly.

For the band 1-4 units, I would suggest take the 2-6% extra for what you already do and if you really want more, apply for a move to a higher banded unit, or find some changes in your WP agreements which saves NATS delays or money in the longer term!

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Sonic TPA

as for more controllers at LL - improve your training, and you won't chop 12 trainees in one year

In 2003, only 2 trainees failed at Heathrow.

In 2003, 7 trainees validated at Heathrow.

There are 2 validation boards expected before the end of March.

Just wanted to keep you updated.

[250 kts]

I don't remember too many people out in the regions complaining when they got a pay rise fro the opening of Swanwick-and what did they have to do-the square root of f**k all!!

You guys want the cash then it is now here and available so come on down-we await you with open arms.

There will always be people who want what others have got but let's face it this is a deal which gives ALL ATCOs a significant rise.

Surely it is obvious to all that a major element of this deal is paid for by WP changes most of which will not be applicable at most units-so why should all of the money be equally distributed? For example why should a unit get a vote knowing that 0530 starts will never affect them and know that they will get exactly the same pay rise? I know that if I was at band 1 unit I would vote unquestioningly for the 0530 starts knowing I would not have to do them and take the money.

Units have known for a while now the basics of the restructuring and I believe the reps voted to allow the BEC to continue at the conference in November. In my opinion that is when the concerns should have been raised.

[radar707]

250kts,

The Airports staff have had their WP changed year on year for th elast 10 years, abnd what did they get for it, the square root of F**k All.

I don't have a problem with the regrading providing it is done properly, yes the LL boys and Girls deserve more, but who has the right to say that a dual rated controller at Glasgow or Edinburgh who works bllody hard in both positions isn't worth as much as a tower only at Stansted????

As an example at EGPF we are contracted to man Tower, GMC, Approach, Approch Radar and Radar Director.

The Approach and Approach radar functions are frequently combined to release staff to do Director, or the whole lot is combine into Approach Radar.

We could quite easily impose flow restrictions on a daily basis into Glasgow because we are not manning the positions we are supposed to man and therefore there are staffing issues.

How would management feel about the daily reports showing flow restrictions into Glasgow / Edinburgh due staffing issues.

We work our cojones off to push the traffic as much as anybody else in NATS, I might not have the complexities of LL Ground to deal with, but a busy single runway operation dealing with all the IFR traffic, coupled with all the low hours PPL and complexities of airspace (both controlled and uncontrolled) is as challenging as anything at any other unit.

The way round this is to increse the London weighting to an acceptable amount that will encourage people to move to LL etc.

All that this is going to do is create divisions amongst NATS staff at Airports, perhaps this is what management are seeking to do, Divide And Conquer.

[1261]

For the record, Edinburgh mans only for two positions on approach - radar and director. Approach and radar have been permanently combined for at least the last four years (the whole time I worked there).

[Captain Spunkfarter]

I work at Heathrow and I'm chuffed at the pay offer! I shall be voting 'Yes'. :ok:

[j17]

captainspunkfarter


I like your attitude " I am alright Jack stuff the rest of you"

[250 kts]

Radar 707,

Yeah I realise that the airports have already been skinned to the bone-but how many of the ATCO3s have volunteered to go the busier units because of the staffing/T&Cs at the regionals-VERY FEW.

As far as I am aware the instigators of the re-structure visited EVERY NATS unit and assessed the workload/complexity issues in conjunction with the staff and the units then gained a score(which incidentally leaves most if not all the units in the same place as now relative to each other).

You use PF as an example of positions to be staffed-but how often are these postions actually fully split?-rarely I suspect. Yes there are 5 tasks but is that so unusual?

I agree all units are complex in their own way but this is on;y the first stage of getting additional money into the pockets of ALL ATCOs. Let's get it there first and then build on it from here. 8-14% is good in any part of aviation at present so let's not risk blowing it before we even have it.

[beepbeep]

It's not right or fair that once again ATCOs are getting a bigger slice of the pie than the rest of NATS.

All the other NATS's grades work hard for the company and the money should be shared out equally.

Sadly once again we have been let down by NATS management and the union.

[250 kts]

Beep.

It's called supply and demand!

[Connex]

Beepbeep -

Bloody hell !! Another "fair play" (non-ATCO?) voice from the wilderness! And do I also perceive a little bit of inter-ATCO niggle creeping in on this and other associated threads?

Equal percentage rise across all ATC grades/jobs would have resolved this - nobody would feel cheated. I've said it once before, and I'll say it again - no friends where money is concerned.

Not even between ATCOs!! (especially band 5's and everybody else)

ha ha !!:p

[beepbeep]

Supply and demand?

Do we really need all the ATCOs?

Do we have the beds for them?

Is the TV room big enough for them?

Fact is NATS needs all it's other grades just as much as it needs ATCOs but it expects them to be awake and at their desks during conditioned hours.

[250 kts]

Beep,

If we don't can I have early retirement now then please? Not a chance!!

The rest of your reply really doesn't deserve an answer.

[beepbeep]

We'd all love early retirement, especially on ATCO terms.

You don't answer the rest because you can't.

[intentionally blank]

Dear 250 Knots,

I have heard the "We are paying the top scales more in order that you all get more" argument probabley as often as you have however that does not alter the fact that the gap 'twix 2s and 3s just keeps on getting bigger.

It is very easy for you as a 2 (which I presume you are) to tell me I have to, once again, look on in awe as my colleagues pay jumps up. Now try being me, paying the same union dues as you, having my workload increase, having my T&Cs attacked and being told if I want to have may pay keep up with other people in NATS then I must change my life and tell me that you would consider that fair.

You wouldn't. If you are honest you know you wouldn't.

You can tell me to move, but that is to miss the point. I pay into my union but, as far as I and others like me can see Prospect isn't representing me to the same degree as it does you.

[Stupendous Man]

radar707

I have to agree - why should a single valid controller be deemed more busy/worth more than a dual valid (or more if you go further north - IZB) controller.

It should be the overall input/value/complexity/callitwhat you want of the unit that counts to the regrading (including outside CAS) - and if that means we have 10 bands then so be it - but make it a fair comparison (spelling??)

I have no problem with the pay deal on a "cost of living" basis.

The Unit Regrading I think should be re-thought.

No doubting that there are some units (christ we could get down to individual sectors if we want) which are more complex than others - and I think that most people would agree that the centres on a whole are busier (on a whole) than airports. Having worked at both I think I can comment fairly on this.

However I think the real problem lies in the airport gradings.

As an aside...

it was mentioned earlier that we all used to be ATCO IIs - well we bit that bullet and changed (for the most) - Why can't we change again to ATCO I - V??
Those that are happy at the less complex units can stay - as long as those guys (and gals) that want to move are given the opportunity to do so - and within a given time scale.

Sorry its taken so long for the rant.

Up Up And Awaaaayyyy

(Cue abuse from various quarters)

P.S Lets stop getting personal about people/units/training - it doesn't achieve anything - we are still one union - and if you have a voice you can still use it constructively.

[Minesapint]

Beep.

Methinks you are an engineer of some description. I understand why you may be disgruntled but having a poke at ATC staff this way is not effective.

It all comes down to market forces and management know it. Engineers are plentiful and ATCO's are not. ATCO/ATSA strikes = mayhem. Engineers / support staff / admin strike = minor annoyance.

If you are at LTCC have a go at getting plugged in in TC. That may change your mind!

[Arkady]

"Supply and demand?

Do we really need all the ATCOs?"

Yes, that is why NATS offer bigger pay rises to ATCOs and are recruiting over 100 a year

"Do we have the beds for them?"

Just, thank you for asking.

"Is the TV room big enough for them?"

Yes, thank you again, but we could do with a bigger TV and more Channels.

"Fact is NATS needs all it's other grades just as much as it needs ATCOs...."

Fact is NATS is reducing the head count in all grades except ATCOs.

"....but it expects them to be awake and at their desks during conditioned hours."

Is the busiest time of your working day around 4am?

[Nogbad the Bad]

Lon More...once again I ask, where did you get that HUGE chip that is on your shoulder ?? Or is it both shoulders and your back ?? Or perhaps it's now enveloping you completely ??

Hmmmmmm......Lone More, More than just an ATCO ? Well yes, I could think of a few choice words to add to that.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

And instead of replying, let's take this private, eh ? Perhaps we could meet ? I would really enjoy that !!

[Greebson]

Halo

In your last post you also mentioned that NATS pumped money into the areas that provide the greatest returns; how come we don't have a band 6 with oceanic ATCOs in then?

[Me Me Me Me]

I must say I'm fairly satisfied with the basic pay increase. I'll be voting yes.

I'm pleased that management stuck to the commitment to make the same basic offer to all NATS staff. This ensures that all grades and levels are given equal respect for the job they do and the relative cost of living their lives.

I'm a non-ATCO and personally wish all ATCOs well in getting whatever you can for changes in WP. It doesn't affect me and I'm sure whatever remuneration received will have a pound of flesh in the bargain. If it were my grades re-negotiating something and loooking for money I wouldn't expect ATCOs to want in on it, as it's nothing to do with them.

Just one small point to something said earlier.. quoting from memory so forgive any minor wording errors.. "ATCOs strike = chaos, ENG/Admin strike = minor hassle" Well I hope you'd still see it as a minor hassle if the admin staff went on strike resulting in a lack of overtime, AAVA, OJTI... oh and salary payments. :ooh: Personally I'd like to keep getting paid.

[Findo]

Somewhere in all this waffle was the theory that we were addressing the shortages by increasing the pay.

The current situation is that MACC is expected to be worst off for ATCOs over the next 3 to 5 years. How does the award of a bigger rise to HQ staff and the rest address this shortage ?

[AREA52]

Findo,

I personally am not aware of the figures, however, if that is the case, I'm sure MACC controllers will be more than happy to do the AAVA's as we currently are at LACC. Then we can have a go on PPRUNE about how they get all the OT
:ok:

Also, a question for the former ATCO 2 units that re-graded to ATCO 3. When you were re-graded, did NATS offer either a move to an ATCO 2 unit in the appropriate region, or a form of compensation for those who wished to stay?

[SilentHandover]

Are we as ATSA's not getting regraded in the same way then?????? :E :E :E

[AREA52]

Certainly not in the same way.

Although there are plenty of good ATSA's around, at our unit (LACC), the job has become considerably less involved than it was at West Drayton and it is well known that the management would have minimal numbers of ATSA's if they could.

[caniplaywithmadness]

Prospect be warned, if you allow this to go to a ballot with BEC recommendation then you are going to find yourselves with a whole load of ATCO's less in your membership figures.

I used to be a firm believer in the union ethic, everyone standing together to fight for what is right and fair in the workplace.

How wrong I was.

This whole unit regrading fiasco is a mess and is just creating divisions amongst staff.

Who on earth thinks that someone who holds 2 validations, working traffic into and out of 2 airports in a busy TMA, providing a service to every man and his dog wanting a service outside that bit of CAS, plus dealing with all the inherent problems of RIS RAS aginst Military traffic and God Knows what else flying around in Bandit country, can be worth a whole load less than someone who holds a single tower validation at SS, it's hardly a complicated unit.

LL, KK yes, they deserve every penny and a whole lot more besides. As for CATC yet another way of rewarding people for failure, how many instructors on the radar course have been rewarded for failing by getting posted to CATC:mad: :mad:

I would love to go and teach at CATC, but I can't be released from my unit for God knows how long :mad:

A guy at my unit wanted to go to LL sailed throught the asessment, got a start date and then someone off his course at LL whinged because my "experienced, valid" colleague would be getting more money :mad:

I should have resigned from the union a few years ago after the pay negotiations fiasco then, but I was persuaded by my rep that the union was there to represent MY interests as a controller at a regional airport.

How wrong he was, funny thing now is that if this does go through then I've a feeling that my unit rep will resign from the union and maybe even a few more in Scotland, Ireland and Wales.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Lon More]

Nogbad why should we take this private? You're the one tossing your teddy out the pram.

You chose to start throwing the insults. I refer you to another thread on the subject Jet Blast. Most of them could be applied to you and save me typing.:*

No chips on my shoulder: Ex CAA (shows how long ago) and now retired Area Supervisor.

BTW I posted my salary on a previous thread last year and can't be bothered to waste time or bandwidth repeating myself.

You express a wish to resort to violence, the last refuge of the mediocre; unfortunately I do not normally injure mental deficients but would be happy to make an exception in your case.

Further rants from yourself will be ignored until you grow up, although undoubtedly someone else will take exception to your obnoxious personality and terminate it long before that happens.

[Bern Oulli]

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent", to quote from FOUNDATION by Isaac Asimov.

Nothing to do with pay, but mildly more interesting than all this bickering.

[Bright-Ling]

Bern....
You are still the funniest person I know!!!!http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/jump.gif

Well done - the best post in 15 pages of argument!

B-L

[Lon More]

Bern ... Thanks, one of my favourite authors. Couldn't remember the souce for thw quote

Lon - Circumstances change, the pun was relevant a couple of years ago; time to change it now.

[Minesapint]

Quick question.

How would a valid, slaving ATCO2 at one of the 'quieter' (lower paid) units feel about non-operational ATCO's at say LACC or LTCC - that have been non-operational for yonks - getting a mega payrise.

For that matter, how would the same ATCO feel at LACC on his 0500 spin compared to the non-operational 0900 - 1700???

[Mahaba]

Banding?
Not really a rant but here goes...
NATS annual movement figures indicate that TC is the busiest area to work. No arguments there-band 5.
NATS figures...movements per controller (maybe a better guide to how busy an ATCO works)
NERC en-route 4800+/ATCO/annum-band 5
MACC (essentially a TC type unit) 4900+/ATCO/annum
For a unit with the 3rd busiest sector in Europe (Stafa/Trent peak periods) it seems galling that both HQ and Hurn should be band 5 when MACC is band 4. Wishing everyone wearing a headset or a phone and actually dealing with aeroplanes gets what they deserve-which I'm afraid is far more than I think you'll get.

PS. And they're closing us down.:( :( :(

[engineering_demon]

To all who maybe interested, bored or just want to get upset, let me say a few things.

This is aimed at the 5% of ATCOs who have got a little bit of an ego. My ego is probably bigger, so shut up, listen up and hold your overly active tongues for a minute.

Lets deal with facts shall we? always a good place. ATCOs need engineers alot more than Engineers need ATCOs. Let me explain, if I can. An engineer can walk out of NATS/ATSP/Whoever and do the job of his/her choosing in his chosen profession with no problems whatsoever. An ATCO, alas, is somewhat limited in the places he/she can talk to aircraft and do thir job. and you all do a fine job, don't get me wrong. However, to say that ATCOs are more important than engineers? Funny. Hilarious infact. Without an engineer of some description there wouldn't be an ATCO. Who would have invented the plane? Who would have invented the Radio? Who would have invented the RADAR? See my point? Us engineers can go to pretty much any company in the world and get a job. ATCOS cannot. Fact. The reason you get paid so much, apart from the good job you do, is that you can do nothing else.

And besides, a screwdriver and a spanner can do an awful lot more damage to your Porches than a headset and a flightstrip can to our metros and trabants.

Rant over. Prospect, please please please do not do this split barganing crap again. In the long run we all lose out, not just this pay round talks.

[Arkady]

Are NATS thinking ahead?

Mahaba makes a good argument for LACC to be banded below MACC, but with TC due to move to the South coast (eventually) having the two grades in the same building may cause a little friction. Same goes for MACC moving to Scottish as band 5.

So why not make all four units band 5?

Maybe because if the New Scottish Centre were to be cancelled all those Band 4 ATCOs would be faced with an enforced move South. Would promotion to band 5 sweeten the pill enough?

[Bright-Ling]

ED

Maybe you are another trade NATS could outsource!

Enough of this we need you crap.

Money. The cause of 76% of the worlds problems. Also shows an individuals worst traits!

B-L

(P.S. How many ATCE's have NAVCANADA Stolen? Another has just resigned from LHR tower - Good luck fella!!!)http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/wavey.gif

[JuniorX]

E D said

"And besides, a screwdriver and a spanner can do an awful lot more damage to your Porches than a headset and a flightstrip can to our metros and trabants."

Ha Ha, you can't scare me, my flat doesn't have a porch
:ok:

Maybe that's why i need a pay rise so I can afford a house rather than a flat;)

[Mahaba]

You seem to have misunderstood. I don't want LACC banded down to MACC. Good luck to them. I just don't think we deserve to be banded below Hurn and HQ with our levels of traffic and sector complexity. It sometimes seems harder than pushing a pen.
And as for a move to the south coast. We already applied only to be told it wasn't an option. That was before any pay deal. At least the LACC/TC guys got to stay in the same country. That's what's creating most of our problems. Some of our families, kids just simply refuse to go. Commuting isn't really a practical option. And before it's said...no there isn't anything wrong with Scotland. But I think we have a point in believing our move is more complicated than from London to Swanwick.
Manchester-ENGLAND to Prestwick-SCOTLAND.
We thought we deserved better. Not better than Scotland, but better in that a choice would have been nice. Even the NATS website tells us we only SUPPLEMENT the two real centres.
It's a good job we all (ATCO's and ATSA's alike) value ourselves and each other here. It's obvious our managers don't feel the same.

And still they're closing us down. :(

Just to give an example. One of our migrating colleagues was asked at his one to one with our illustrious GM if instead of leaving NATS he would consider a move south.
His reply, "I put a personal request in to move south over a year ago!"

DOH!!!

And still they're closing us down.:mad: :(

[250 kts]

I know this is easy to say from a band 5 unit but why can't people look at what they are getting as a rise and think what they are going to have to do differently for that rise and stop comparing themselves with the unit up the road.

Look at the figures-they are bloody superb for most of us and few will have to do anything different to get it.

It will never be perfect. This is a basis which can be built on in the future and EVERY ATCO will be starting from a considerably higher base line when things are next up for grabs.

Maybe MACC has the busiest sector but for how long during the day? I understand the calculations were done on SUSTAINED traffic not a blip for an hour a day.

As for CATC-who would ever go if it were not a band 5 unit? I am surprised there isn't a queue of people trying to get there from MACC with a view to a future move to the south coast. Is the exodus a reaction to NPC or NATS? You don't want to go to NPC but would go to Winnipeg( -25 just now by the way). Just a shame a few more didn't volunteer to come to LACC/LL a few years ago.

The figures I have seen indicate this is an acceptable but by no means perfect deal but turning it down will only result in more delays to getting the cash in peoples' pockets and maybe result in a withdrawal by management of the offer and all the publicity that would go with it.

Think about it carefully what this will mean for YOU not the bloke up the road and more importantly what will YOU have to do for the rise.

[Mahaba]

If that doesn't just say it all!

A BLIP FOR AN HOUR A DAY!!!!!!!!!!!

I give up.

Winnipeg? It isn't for all of us. Just a few.

Earlier move south? We have long been refused it.


CATC? It's still no justification.

I'm beginning to feel that even as ATCO's we may never see eye to eye and support each other. :(

[Arkady]

Sorry, I'll re-phrase my last post.

It is inevitable that MACC and ScOACC have to be the same band as having different bands in the same building will cause tension.

Perhaps they have been banded below LACC/LTCC to win support at these two units for cancelling the NSC and moving everyone to Swanwick with appropriate salary rises.

[Gonzo]

I wonder if the reaction would have been different if every unit had got an 8.7% rise?

[callyoushortly]

Gonzo,

I think you've hit the nail on the head....
Same pay rise for all, let's face it 8.7% on an ATCO2 wage is more than the same rise for a 3, so I guess that this makes it fair, as it's more money for more traffic.

No issues with that!!! YES vote all round! :ok:

[250 kts]

Mahaba,

OK maybe for a bit more than an hour-I was just picking up that you say it is the busiest "at peak periods". Well I don't often see MACC flowing the sectors and causing delays which would be inevitable considering the complexity you talk about. But you don't jump on the real point that the figures are based on SUSTAINED traffic-I'll say it again SUSTAINED!!!! You also say STAFA/TRENT-split or combined. Put CLN together and you get around 100/hour but nowhere near that split. You can make the figures say what you want.

But as I said before look at what YOU need to do for this rise-anything at all????-probably not.

[Scott Voigt]

Me Me Me...

If Staff went out here, the only thing that we would notice is that it would be easier to find a parking spot...

:E

regards

Scott

[Third Party]

Did not the Trade Unions give their full support to the 2-Centre Strategy well before the PPP and remain in full support of said policy - sorry MACC?

The ATCO BEC backed the whole WP, pay and structure package late yesterday and ballot will commence after member briefings from around 9 Feb?

[Bern Oulli]

Proving who's busier than who, who is working a more complex traffic situation than the next guy is virtually impossible. At least to the satisfaction of all. To give an example of how you can "massage" statistics. Once upon a time, a long time ago, at a non-NATS airfield just off the NW coast of France, I found myself in the position of union rep. I use the word "union" for want of a better. At that time the units' pay scales were woefully short of what NATS/CAA were then paying their staff. I worked out the annual movements per operational ATCO per year for my unit. I then did the same for Heathrow. Statistically I was able to show my employer that we were 3 times busier than Heathrow, and that was at a unit that closed at night! It was also in the days when Heathrow had its APR "on site". The good bit is that management swallowed it and, reluctantly, agreed to a parity agreement. Had Heathrow ATCOs known this at the time I'll bet they would have had something to say.

Lon More The quote was attributed to Salvor Hardin, first Mayor of Terminus. My paperback, price 3/6d, sits before me.

[DangerousD]

Did we not all argue at the last pay round and susequent annual union get togethers not to go into any more two year bit by bit pay agreements?? Did we not also say that any changes to WP would be a seperate issue???

When the union comes round to you're unit they will sell this deal to you that you are al getting a two year PAY deal worth at least 8+% ( and who would not vote for getting 14odd%??).YOU ARE NOT. Every atco is getting a pay rise of 3.4% this year and 3.2%(ok minimum 3.2) next. The varying ammounts after this are for agreeing to changes to WP and unit regrading.

I await with interest what the union reps will be telling us they have caved in for. I have heard nothing concrete as yet but suspect like most that there will be 5.30 starts, 5day Mon-Fri subrosters and perhaps even split shifts. I personally think that that this is the thin end of the wedge that leads to individual rostering. Am I right in thinking that Nats hired some personnel big wig from BA last year who was responsible for exactly the same implimentaions (and subsequent strike action at LL) within their company. Maybe these changes are inevitable in the long run but I certainly believe that giving them up are worth a hole lot more than 1/2 spine point this year and 1/2 next. And while we are on the subject which spine point will they be using the largest or the smallest??

With regard to the regrading of units I believe that this has been rushed into as well, all units should have been present to agree on a clear and fair way of working this out that would be explained easily and fairly to the staff involved.

Just a short repost to 250kts.....staffa/trent do impliment flow restrictions such as mdi's etc just the same as you big boys at LACC (as do s29) and if you would like to check traffic figures via the company intranet via the ops pages you will notice that staffa and tnt on a dayly,monthy, and yearly basis carry more traffic than any at LACC which in most peoples eyes equates to SUSTAINED traffic levels. (PS you will note that I dont decry TC who I think work harder than anyone else...good work fella's).

Also in reply to people who come on here and say that ' if you dont like it why aren't you working here at LACC/TC/LL etc...' If you knew you're facts there are plenty of people who are willing to work at the above units but can't get released (not Just from MACC). I should know as my transfer request hes been in for 2 years now with little chance of a move in sight.......so much for our mobile grades.

Rant over......just vote NO

[Mahaba]

Speaking only for ourselves there seems to be a feeling from 'other' units that EGCC are wingeing, that we have'nt communicated effectively with our union reps about our feelings regarding the new pay deal or our move, etc.
It seems to us, and I would think we know best what we have said, that the union 'listens' and then proceeds with the course of action it thinks is more acceptable to the 'other' units perhaps with the larger vote. We HAVE protested to them. We continually do. We have wrote letters to them, to individual reps, even to kenny Everitt himself signed by members of the unit putting our feelings down on paper. A cursory wave of the hand seems to be all we ever get. Please don't think we're being complacent. We cannot be any more vociferous. But we don't have the lions share of the vote.

And again! A Southern move? some of us applied to move. We were refused.
It's not that we don't accept that we are a mobile grade; we just think some form of choice would/should have been offered when you're being moved to a different COUNTRY.

Traffic levels? Again...Listen...we accept that LACC/TC ARE busy. We only say that we are too. Far busier than CATC or HQ. Is that too hard to understand.

Flowing sectors? It's our TTC's that do that and I think you'll find that occasionally even they will admit they get it woefully wrong.

It may surprise a few of you to learn that in the main Manchester agrees with every point you make, every unit is different with it's own problems, faults and complexities; all we ask is that when Manchester talks about what is happening at Manchester please believe us. After all how would anyone else know the true picture about what goes on here; if you're not here.

Surely something is going wrong when Students/Cadets used to tell us that EGCC was the favoured posting from the college for famil' etc. Now it's dreaded. The morale is being squeezed out of the unit. People are leaving and we're either not being listened too, being called complacent or suspected of milking our figures.

Off before I burst!

[Jerricho]

This is just starting to get sad........

How about emailing [email protected] , get access to the NATS forum (Provide your real name, pprune user name, employee number and unit) and continue it there if you must.

Or are you happy to provide a warm glow for other controllers around the world?

[Mahaba]

What can I say?
Again common sense.

[flower]

I have tried without success on a number of occasions to access the NATS forum , I have e-mailed yet again today to try to gain access.
You can argue we are airing our dirty linen in public, I have to say i do not think that is a bad thing personally in this situation.
I would like the rest of the aviation community to see just how well those of us at the units outside of LACC LTCC and EGLL are treated by both our company and the union.
Those pilots working us are probably more aware of exactly how much effort we have to put in to make things work.
There are many times when i feel like I am juggling 15 balls in the air at a time.
I do not have the luxury of traffic working within Class A airspace doing what it is asked to do with no danger of something appearing suddenly in front of it requiring avoiding turns. I also do not have the luxury of having the vast majority of the aircrew I speak to to being fully competent, I have to deal with GA who rangefrom being superb to being outright diabolically bad.
I have no issue with someone who genuinely works harder than I do being paid more than i do, however there are many occasions when i do not think you can say you are working harder than me, are jobs are not quantifiable in that way.
Yes you move more traffic than i do i do not in anyway dispute that, but I'm sorry you do not deserve to earn 20K a year more than me.
I will be raising all these issues when the union visits us, that is if they visit us quite often we are expected to travel some distance to other units to be briefed.
I have been advised that as I may belong to any union and i do not have to be tied to Prospect, should this vote go through without any satisfaction from Prospect I will i am sure like many be tendering my resignation from Prospect and looking for a union that is prepared to represent everyone. My union dues are exactly the same as those at all other NATS units, my union representation is not.

[SonicTPA]

Flower seems to have captured the feeling of us lower banded outside CAS airports. But interestingly enough, Band 2 airports are on the same pay as Band 1 airports. Is that going to stay the same?? Will Band 1 go down, or everyone else go up even more to get a gap.

As for the union, I vote that you should pay your union depending on your banding and pay, too. So band 5 units should pay twice what Band 1 units pay (or band 1 pay half!). It only seems as fair as everything else...

When farnborough gets controlled airspace, our non-quantifiable movements will become quantifiable - so overnight they'll go up by 75,000 movements - bet the pay won't go up tho!

Sonic

[beepbeep]

Minesapint says ATCOs are getting a bigger share of the money NATS' has available for pay rises because -

ATCO/ATSA strikes = mayhem. Engineers / support staff / admin strike = minor annoyance.

So it's all down to industrial muscle. You have bullied the company into giving you a big rise at the expense of the rest of NATS workers. What nice prople you are.


PS If you really want more channels for your TV Arkady you should have included the request in you list of demands. I'm sure CBeebies wouldn't have cost much

[LostThePicture]

callyoushortly said:

Same pay rise for all, let's face it 8.7% on an ATCO2 wage is more than the same rise for a 3, so I guess that this makes it fair, as it's more money for more traffic. No issues with that!!! YES vote all round!
So you're saying that the pay rise offered to you is acceptable, but should be rejected because someone else at a different unit is getting more? Why the fixation with other peoples' pay packets? If you are happy with what you are getting, isn't that all that matters?

Let's think about this. As one of the younger generation of ATCOs, I'm delighted at how much I am paid to do a job which is more or less a glorified computer game. I work nearly 20% fewer days in an average year than the average desk jockey, and even when I am working, it's not always difficult. And I take no work home with me.

But something terrible happens to ATCOs as they grow older. They become GREEDY. A comfortable lifestyle is not enough. Right at the beginning of this thread there was a comment from 250kts concerning AAVAs at Swanwick, and how newly valid controllers are causing resentment by being able to do several each month, and hence get more money. What an appalling attitude - I hope it isn't contagious. These keen young ATCOs are helping the company keep delays down to avoid fines, and all their colleagues can say is, "You're getting more money than me, I don't like that".

The pay offer is indisputably divisive. NATS management wouldn't be happy if it wasn't. But 8.7% is either acceptable, or it's not. The fact that another place is getting 15% should not matter. We're not talking the difference between poverty and opulence, after all.

LTP

[250 kts]

beep.

No matter what people say you will ignore them. There is an across the board pay offer which covers ATCO/ATSA and engineering grades-I'm not sure about the other employees yet. Then on top of this is a further staged rise which is specific to ATCOs as a recognition of changes to Working Practices and the subsequent savings being made. I don't know where you work but surely you can see that savings made by a particular group should go to that group. Just as the ATSAs will make savings and get a share of those.

It would be naive to say that industrial muscle doesn't come into it but the ATCOs have never exercised that muscle in over 25 years,even over PPP-unlike other European colleagues.

You obviously have a major problem with ATCOs ever having breaks or being able to watch TV during working hours. Would you prefer to be controlled on your early morning flight by someone who has maybe had no sleep for 24 hours or someone who has had the chance to get a couple of hours sleep during the night duty?-look at how the airlines operate.

The company has not been bullied into this rise-it is a share in the savings of 70+ ATCOs across the country. One of the consequences of this is that at LACC we will be reducing the number of staff on nights and therefore increasing the fatigue element and combined with this be required to start a considerable number of duties at 0530-that means an alarm call before 0430 for many. Still such a good deal??????

But then I suppose you already do a wide range of duties with such unsociable shifts or do you sit behind a desk and listen to how good the operational staff have without finding out for yourself. I invite you to come and join me for an 0530 start in July or better still pop in to see us at 0300 any day-we're always there!!

[flower]

Lostthepicture,
Twenty Thousand pounds is a substantial difference in pay between ATCOs and yes it does make a difference.
Glorified computer game, not where i am sitting its not.
The actual pay rise is good, we should be very lucky when many out there are getting considerably less , those complaining about the basic pay rise really must look at themselves, the issue really is regrading.
If you think its OK to earn substantially more than your colleagues and cannot see why we are up in arms about it one wonders if you actually know what we do outside of LACC LTCC and EGLL.

I am also fed up of the " well if you don't like it come and work here" crowd, as many have already said they have tried but for various reasons, usually because we are short of staff and can not be released we are unable to " work there".
What happens if we at the airfields didn't work there, where would your traffic be , certainly not up in the air.
Those of us who are dual valid also feel aggrieved that there are so many Tower only units in the top grading of airfields. At dual valid units people tend to train in the tower first because radar is the more complex of the two ratings, but again thats not being recognised.

The annual pay rise should have been dealt with on a totally separate issue from the regrading, when it was discussed with us at our unit a few months ago we were told it would be a considerable time before the regrading would take place as there were so many variables and they were unable to find a fair solution. It would seem the regrading has thus been pushed through, who pushed it was in NATS or PROSPECT ?

I will tell you why I at the moment will not move, and yes I very seriously looked at it last year. I enjoy my work, I don't think oh no I have to go to work today, as a number of my colleagues at other units do. I get job satisfaction from what i do . But most importantly for me after years of moving with work and family I have finally found somewhere I can call home. I am very aggrieved at the regrading but if the company or anybody else thinks 20K a year will make me move or any other ATCO move they are sorely incorrect, some of us know that there is much more to life than work, and when we finally find ourselves a life we will stay there.

[caniplaywithmadness]

Flower,

Well said:ok: :ok: :ok:

I couldn't agree more with you, I certainly hope that Prospect will be visiting ALL the units prior to the ballot and find out exactly how we ALL feel about this issue.

As i've said in previous posts, this is a wholly unfair deal which I believe Prospect have entered into without thinking about the staff at the regional airports, as usual it's all LL, KK and the centres.

I think it was Greebson who mentioned either on this thread or the regrading thread, what about Oceanic controllers?

We at the airports move a damn sight more traffic than any Oceanic controller, what will their grading be? Surely they don't deserve to be in the same band as ScACC radar controllers :confused:

[beepbeep]

Oh I didn't understand 250kts.

I didn't realise the cash for your extra pay rise was coming from the savings NATS will make from making 70 ATCOs redunant because of changes to your WP.

Of course if you're going to do the same with less you deserve the money. Maybe NATS should apply that company wide.

[hold on the left]

I cannot believe I am hearing this!!

You all get about an 8% pay rise over two years!

Do any of you actually give a :mad: about everybody else in the world or are you all such a bunch of greedy, self centred :mad: ??

There are millions upon millions of people in this country that would chew off their own arms for the salaries you people are on, yet here you are comparing your own fat wallets to somebody elses all because you are p :mad: d off that they are getting more than you. I will bet that none of you have ever slept rough for any significant period of time, or that any of you have been plunged into poverty by ailing health :( If you had any sense you would all be happy that you have good well paid jobs and nice comfortable lives and be thankful for what you have and not bemoaning what you don't have!!

I swear to god you are making air traffic controllers look terrible in the eyes of the general public!! :*