NATS Pay/WP
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NATS Pay/WP
As no-one seems to post on to, or read, the NATS forum my apologies to those non-NATS PPruners for this NATS-specific thread.
Question :
Does anyone know how far this year's pay/working practice negotiations are going ??
If there is no specific "deal" worked out by 31st December, will Prospect still continue to with it's "no deal, no AAVA stance", or will it turn turtle and have it's belly rubbed (as SRG seem to do when it comes to anything to do with NATS) ??
Question :
Does anyone know how far this year's pay/working practice negotiations are going ??
If there is no specific "deal" worked out by 31st December, will Prospect still continue to with it's "no deal, no AAVA stance", or will it turn turtle and have it's belly rubbed (as SRG seem to do when it comes to anything to do with NATS) ??
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Latest pay over rejected by the union. More talks to take place soon I believe.
WP proposals on-going. I believe there is a joint management/union task force going round the units to establish movement rates, complexity and other stuff. A meeting is then to take place to decide a pecking order.
I'd find out more but our rep hasn't sobered up yet from the conference!
WP proposals on-going. I believe there is a joint management/union task force going round the units to establish movement rates, complexity and other stuff. A meeting is then to take place to decide a pecking order.
I'd find out more but our rep hasn't sobered up yet from the conference!
Let me guess...
UK average pay award - 4.5%
so our union reps ask for 2.9%
NATS offer 1.9%
so Prospect agree 2.0% and try to say they have done marvelously in gaining us a beneath inflation pay rise again
Or will things be different this year?
UK average pay award - 4.5%
so our union reps ask for 2.9%
NATS offer 1.9%
so Prospect agree 2.0% and try to say they have done marvelously in gaining us a beneath inflation pay rise again
Or will things be different this year?
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Dan you've a very short memory.
The current deal just ending was one of the best above inflation rises I have ever seen especially as it was not linked to any other negotiations, non pensionable bonus etc.
Give credit where due.
The current deal just ending was one of the best above inflation rises I have ever seen especially as it was not linked to any other negotiations, non pensionable bonus etc.
Give credit where due.
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Nogbad
May I suggest that for reliable information you speak to your unit/watch rep?
Anyway - what do you think of the rumour that the Union are negotiating for AAVA at standard rate?
Would you do it for standard rate? I bet there are some that would.
May I suggest that for reliable information you speak to your unit/watch rep?
Anyway - what do you think of the rumour that the Union are negotiating for AAVA at standard rate?
Would you do it for standard rate? I bet there are some that would.
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Dan Dare,if you think that the union let you down with respect to pay rises then don't whinge or make snide comments about them.Do something about it.Become a union rep yourself if you dare.Then we will all take great pleasure in blaming you when said pay rise is p*** poor!
Thread Starter
Anyway - what do you think of the rumour that the Union are negotiating for AAVA at standard rate?
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Just to give y'all something to show NATS on what some others are getting for the cost of living raise. We are going to get a 4.1% in the coming year...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
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Nogbad,
The problem with the present system is that the "flat rate" allows a junior person with less than the minimum unit validations, and therefore useless on nights, to do AAVAs pretty much whenever they like in terms of SRATCOH and consequently walk away with more than the person who has just trained them. Now no one can tell me that that is a fair and equitable system.
I am certainly in favour of them being paid as a percentage of base salary if only to iron anomalies like the one above. This could be set so the max is around the present daily rate maybe with a sliding scale down from there.
Yes you're right that they get mgt out of a hole but it is in no ones interest for NATS to go under or even to face massive service delivery fines. But NATS must realise that the staff will want a share of the fines avoided due to improved service delivery. It is no good claiming that the money was used to fund the cost savings announced earlier in the year-you will only get away with that once!! Certainly at LACC we made WP changes last summer which have made a massive improvement to service but there is no doubt that if the pay negotiations and/or restructuring fail to deliver then so will the staff come summer 2004.
Management be aware of the strength of feeling-ignore it at your peril!!
The problem with the present system is that the "flat rate" allows a junior person with less than the minimum unit validations, and therefore useless on nights, to do AAVAs pretty much whenever they like in terms of SRATCOH and consequently walk away with more than the person who has just trained them. Now no one can tell me that that is a fair and equitable system.
I am certainly in favour of them being paid as a percentage of base salary if only to iron anomalies like the one above. This could be set so the max is around the present daily rate maybe with a sliding scale down from there.
Yes you're right that they get mgt out of a hole but it is in no ones interest for NATS to go under or even to face massive service delivery fines. But NATS must realise that the staff will want a share of the fines avoided due to improved service delivery. It is no good claiming that the money was used to fund the cost savings announced earlier in the year-you will only get away with that once!! Certainly at LACC we made WP changes last summer which have made a massive improvement to service but there is no doubt that if the pay negotiations and/or restructuring fail to deliver then so will the staff come summer 2004.
Management be aware of the strength of feeling-ignore it at your peril!!
Ohcirrej
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250 kts, you're kidding right? We have had several AVA's in, and because we have been so short staffed I have been hella glad to see them. I couldn't give a rats @ss how much they are getting for the shift. And you can wave the "lets close sectors and delays and stuff just to prove a point" flag all you want. I thought we were all on the same side.........................also what gives you the right to assume one of your days off is worth more than a "junior" controllers?
You really support my argument that ATCO's hate to see others getting something they aren't.
You really support my argument that ATCO's hate to see others getting something they aren't.
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Jerri,
Kidding on which point?
As someone who isn't personally bothered about the AAVA rate(cos I don't do 'em) I consider it grossly unfair that someone can boost their salary by upto 50% just because of their position on the scale and the lack of validations they hold. The bit that really gauls is the fact that these "junior" staff are able to do the number of AAVAs because their ability to do them is enhanced by them not doing nights. Now I know this situation is probably unique to LACC but it causes a massive amount of resentment. It could be resolved by Prospect insisting that a limit be put on the number that an individual can do each month. And let's not forget that these duties are VOLUNTARY and therefore if these people are no longer happy to do the duties at the reduced rate then they can vote with their feet-and I reckon very few would!! No, one of my days off is not worth a different rate,but the rate I earn at work is-say 55k versus 35k for a more junior person.
As for being glad that an AAVA turns up-no not really. I know that I could be in position for upto an hour and a half-that's life. Maybe you've been glad to see tham because your unit's management have a gun-ho attitude to the TSFs and subsequent delays. It no longer is clever to not insist that the correct flow is applied-especially if you are short staffed in the first place.
Yes we are all on the same side but mgt have to realise that the goodwill that has been created can just as easily be lost if staff do not feel suitably rewarded for their hard work and commitment. As I said no one wants to see things deteriorate again and no doubt at units like TC people will be falling over themselves to attend a few days more and take on a few more validations 'cos it makes them all feel good but eventually the "feel good" bubble will burst-probably round about the time places like TC and MACC start to get involved in re-locations and the like.
Kidding on which point?
As someone who isn't personally bothered about the AAVA rate(cos I don't do 'em) I consider it grossly unfair that someone can boost their salary by upto 50% just because of their position on the scale and the lack of validations they hold. The bit that really gauls is the fact that these "junior" staff are able to do the number of AAVAs because their ability to do them is enhanced by them not doing nights. Now I know this situation is probably unique to LACC but it causes a massive amount of resentment. It could be resolved by Prospect insisting that a limit be put on the number that an individual can do each month. And let's not forget that these duties are VOLUNTARY and therefore if these people are no longer happy to do the duties at the reduced rate then they can vote with their feet-and I reckon very few would!! No, one of my days off is not worth a different rate,but the rate I earn at work is-say 55k versus 35k for a more junior person.
As for being glad that an AAVA turns up-no not really. I know that I could be in position for upto an hour and a half-that's life. Maybe you've been glad to see tham because your unit's management have a gun-ho attitude to the TSFs and subsequent delays. It no longer is clever to not insist that the correct flow is applied-especially if you are short staffed in the first place.
Yes we are all on the same side but mgt have to realise that the goodwill that has been created can just as easily be lost if staff do not feel suitably rewarded for their hard work and commitment. As I said no one wants to see things deteriorate again and no doubt at units like TC people will be falling over themselves to attend a few days more and take on a few more validations 'cos it makes them all feel good but eventually the "feel good" bubble will burst-probably round about the time places like TC and MACC start to get involved in re-locations and the like.
Ohcirrej
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Sorry 250kts, I didn't realise the "massive resentment" at Swanwick regarding this. I don't understand why it causes resentment, other than the good old "Oh, oh, somebody is getting something I'm not!!!". Can't be happy for people starting out (who, as you mention, are on base salaries less than you..........AND less than some ATSA's). Yes they are voluntary, and the people are volunteering to forgo a day off and be paid for it. And is it just "junior" controllers that don't do nights?
Regarding being happy to see the AVA....it's not because I don't want to sit there for less than an hour and a half; the times we have had them is simply because it's a little difficult to run 4 positions with 3 people. Some of us don't have the luxury of closing airspace. And you can harp on all you like about EFFECTIVE (<- note) flow, MDA etc, some sectors are a little harder to do.
Regarding being happy to see the AVA....it's not because I don't want to sit there for less than an hour and a half; the times we have had them is simply because it's a little difficult to run 4 positions with 3 people. Some of us don't have the luxury of closing airspace. And you can harp on all you like about EFFECTIVE (<- note) flow, MDA etc, some sectors are a little harder to do.
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250kts..
You must be ex military. Right?
How can you describe someone who has been trained to the same standard as you have been and holds a validation approved by the CAA as 'Junior' to you?
You are correct that there are plenty of people below you on the pay scale because they have less years service than you. But that doesn't make them 'Junior' Staff.
A newly valid controller and one who has been valid 10years+ do the same job and under the same circumstances. Som might even say that some newly valid ATCO's do a better job than some of the 'stalwarts' of the unit!!
It is my opinion that the company previously put a value on an ATCO shift during LACC OCT. If I remember correctly that was about £850 - - it should remain as such
You must be ex military. Right?
How can you describe someone who has been trained to the same standard as you have been and holds a validation approved by the CAA as 'Junior' to you?
You are correct that there are plenty of people below you on the pay scale because they have less years service than you. But that doesn't make them 'Junior' Staff.
A newly valid controller and one who has been valid 10years+ do the same job and under the same circumstances. Som might even say that some newly valid ATCO's do a better job than some of the 'stalwarts' of the unit!!
It is my opinion that the company previously put a value on an ATCO shift during LACC OCT. If I remember correctly that was about £850 - - it should remain as such
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VectorLine, that figure looks great, but look at the resentment the Union has to AAVA's and then realise that they would happily negotiate the figure DOWN even further than it already is just because they don't like them. Rumours I've heard is that the payment could become a percentage of your own pay. It means management reluctance to get in the 'wiser' therefore more expensive, and to gently persuade the younger ones that aren't getting the right side of the deal not to sign up for them again.
Either way, my view is that without AAVA's we would have been screwed beyond belief this summer - no matter who came in to do them, so the company benefitted. It would be nice to see management to according reward ALL operational staff for their time and efforts in reducing delays, I know this will never happen no matter how much they saved in fines. If AAVA's are working on the voluntary basis, then keep them going with good reward on a voluntary basis, so everyone has a fair choice. Keep staff coming in on them, then there will be no need for making them compulsary.
If single sector staff continue to be allowed to do AAVA's, how about making them train on AAVA's on the other half, so we can get them useful for nights quicker. Even better, how about a novel idea and making them train Tactical only on both to start off with, then doing Planner once experienced?? But of course it'll never work, even if we did used to get them valid quicker the old way
Either way, my view is that without AAVA's we would have been screwed beyond belief this summer - no matter who came in to do them, so the company benefitted. It would be nice to see management to according reward ALL operational staff for their time and efforts in reducing delays, I know this will never happen no matter how much they saved in fines. If AAVA's are working on the voluntary basis, then keep them going with good reward on a voluntary basis, so everyone has a fair choice. Keep staff coming in on them, then there will be no need for making them compulsary.
If single sector staff continue to be allowed to do AAVA's, how about making them train on AAVA's on the other half, so we can get them useful for nights quicker. Even better, how about a novel idea and making them train Tactical only on both to start off with, then doing Planner once experienced?? But of course it'll never work, even if we did used to get them valid quicker the old way
Ohcirrej
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J17,
I can apprecaite what you're saying, however some sectors are much harder to restrict or close than others. You guys can level cap, re-route, close airspace or give airspace to other ATSU's. Some of us don't have the luxury. Just the good old FMU, which we all know isn't an exact science. Or, sorry, no approach service for Dubya's visit, we don't have the staff.
Delaying the travelling public does prove a point regarding the staffing situation. We see strikes on the tubes, mail services and the fire services. However, I dare to say if you explained to Mr. Self-Load that while he was delayed for 4 hours due to staff shortage, there IS a system in place to alleviate staff shortages.............oh, and don't forget to mention how much are these people getting paid for the shift.
I can apprecaite what you're saying, however some sectors are much harder to restrict or close than others. You guys can level cap, re-route, close airspace or give airspace to other ATSU's. Some of us don't have the luxury. Just the good old FMU, which we all know isn't an exact science. Or, sorry, no approach service for Dubya's visit, we don't have the staff.
Delaying the travelling public does prove a point regarding the staffing situation. We see strikes on the tubes, mail services and the fire services. However, I dare to say if you explained to Mr. Self-Load that while he was delayed for 4 hours due to staff shortage, there IS a system in place to alleviate staff shortages.............oh, and don't forget to mention how much are these people getting paid for the shift.
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250kts
Please also remember that these 'junior' staff that you keep refering to may have been 'seen off' on the payscale depending on when they validated.
If they validated before the '2 years from leaving the college' date, then they would have been paid on the v2 scale up until that 2 year point. You therefore have a valid ATCO not being paid on the ATCO II scale!! Fair and equitable system??
Therefore, if the lower class junior controllers do a few AAVA's, they are only trying to recoup some of the money they should have been paid in the previous months for being valid and on a training scale
Jerricho
It may be a bit difficult to close/restrict your airspace methinks
Please also remember that these 'junior' staff that you keep refering to may have been 'seen off' on the payscale depending on when they validated.
If they validated before the '2 years from leaving the college' date, then they would have been paid on the v2 scale up until that 2 year point. You therefore have a valid ATCO not being paid on the ATCO II scale!! Fair and equitable system??
Therefore, if the lower class junior controllers do a few AAVA's, they are only trying to recoup some of the money they should have been paid in the previous months for being valid and on a training scale
Jerricho
It may be a bit difficult to close/restrict your airspace methinks
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I was under the impression that after the shambles of the last pay vote, this time round ATCO's would be making a separate pay claim from the assistants and engineers. However I have recently be told that that is not the case and that a joint claim has been lodged again this year. Can anybody shed any light on that?