View Full Version : BACX pilots to gain access to mainline

5th Nov 2003, 17:01
Now confirmed by a senior BALPA source that an initial batch of thirty pilots ,from the top of the BACX seniority list ,will be joining BA as 757 first officers.Formal announcement in days rather than weeks.

5th Nov 2003, 19:03
Mr Saurus

Would you care to define 'the top 30'. From my copy of the seniority list and my knowledge of quite a few of 'the top 30' the last thing any of them would be interested in would be joing BA as 757 FOs - captains perhaps!:hmm:

5th Nov 2003, 20:47
Looks like this is the start of BA CitiExpress pilots entering the BA Mainline senitority list as and when vacancies arise within Mainline. The top 30 on the seniority list within CitiExpress will probably discount most captains as they would take a pay cut. But to be one of the lucky 30 will prob. mean you will have to be a fairly senior FO in CitiExpress with 5+ years seniority.

5th Nov 2003, 21:21
Many Jet skippers wont really be interested but there are certainly a sizeable minority who would be particulary if there are long/medium haul opportunities so they dont have to move house.

5th Nov 2003, 21:37
For info, the top 3 Fos (SFOs) are at 64, 67 and 105 (out of approx 650 as of August) respectively and No64=10yrs or more service.;)

5th Nov 2003, 22:02
J11 - I agree that most of those numbered 1 to 30 would not be interested in a 757 F/O spot ; this is why I wrote "from the top of the BACX seniority list" (as opposed to the top 30).In other words bids will be strictly based on seniority rather than Jet qualified or any of the other previously suggested criterion.

Dr Tre
5th Nov 2003, 22:09
What a load of :mad:

I dont know where you lot get this from. Your not supposed to post your own ideas, daydreams and guesses you know.

5th Nov 2003, 23:50
Dr Tre

RTFP (post) It came from a senior BALPA source.

Engage brain before throwing teenage style tantrum.

6th Nov 2003, 00:31
I think you are a little bit out with your information.The pilots at the top of BACX list will be allowed to go through the interview process, and if successful will get BA shorthaul , and lose there final salary pension.

What a deal -sign me up now!!

If I remember correctly you are type frozen for 5 years with BA, so it's not much of a draw for anyone who wants longhaul.

I cannot think of many people in the top 200 in CX who would want the hassle of , interview and then being a career F/o,on poor money based in LHR.

Hand Solo
6th Nov 2003, 01:03
Alosaurus - I think previous debates on this forum have revealed that senior BALPA sources within BACX have frequently been wide of the mark!

On the basis of the complete absence of comment by anyone within BA BALPA I'd guess that 145qrh is probably closer to the mark, with some CX pilots getting to jump the gun on BAs external recruitment process. Why and how they're restricting this to the top 30 beats me. 145 is correct about the initial five year engagement freeze, plus any DEP joining now is likely to be 10+ years to command at best. Great deal. I suspect BA expect to have a hard time recruiting soon and this may be the first manifestation of that.

6th Nov 2003, 02:00

Captain Correlli
6th Nov 2003, 02:02
Trying to restrict it to a 'one off' event is my guess. Last thing CX management want is any formalising of relations between plastic and platinum BAs in the immediate future. This is because there are probably even more closures/bad news to come. When all the dust settles, there will be nothing left except BHX / MAN, effectively BAR on a regional cost base. (and probably STILL losing money)
Expect THEN that a CityFlyer amalgamation will happen to the lucky :} few remaining - unless of course the whole thing has gone down the drain!!!:{

6th Nov 2003, 03:44
Captain C

Got it in one. Go to the top of the class but only if you can squeeze David E's goolies hard enough for him to publicly admit it!

Apres moi le deluge!

Captain Correlli
6th Nov 2003, 06:02
:O well known DE has not got any of those items, serving his time till pension date (and doubtless huge time-served bung).:mad:
But then again, do any of them have the moral backbone to admit either real intentions, or lack of imagination therof??:* I doubt it. God help us all, because BA won't. :(

6th Nov 2003, 15:48
Hand you generally seem to represent mainline opinion.

1. What is the mainline view of CX joining the master seniority list at the bottom, just like CFE did?

2. Why are the mainline CC not offering more obvious support to CXCC to achieve this, since at worst it is neutral in terms of effect on mainline guys, and at best increases the support and clout of BA BALPA in overall terms?

6th Nov 2003, 18:57
:cool: Boy, am I glad I'm out of it! Good luck to all who remain, hope it keeps going long enough to collect your pensions.

6th Nov 2003, 19:05
Fudpucker......I'm sure we'll have the last laugh, although I am slightly jealous that our company don't give us free burgers cooked by stalios every friday night!

6th Nov 2003, 19:14

Nobody in BA mainline is objecting to BACX pilots joining any fleet at the bottom of the seniority list. If they are suitably qualified and pass selection then good luck to them. It worked for me - I left a comfortable command in BACX (well Manx as was) for the big unknown of BA, joined at the end of the list and did my time in the righthand seat. Now I command a 777 and have enough seniority to get the trips I like ( 4 day BGI tomorrow) as well as all the tottie I can handle. The pays not bad either......

Hand Solo
6th Nov 2003, 19:15
I wouldn't go as far as saying I represent mainline opinion Cornflake! But as you asked, my opinions on your questions are:

1) I don't think many people would object to that. The thorny issue in all this could be grandfather rights, i.e. what happens to CX Captains if their position disappears in CX. The ex-CFE Captains, who's positions disappeared through no fault of their own, have been granted out of seniority commands at LGW or have gone as very junior P2 to long haul on protected pay. The commands were allocated on a pro-rata basis of EOG/CFE aircraft at LGW prior to the merger. As CX don't operate out of London bases, any reduction of the CX fleet would mean those Captains scrambling for a position within existing CX bases or moving as an FO to London and I'm not sure thats an attractive proposal for you given current times to command. Then again, if the fleet shrinks whats the alternative? Also, any direct merger of seniority lists could see plenty of mainline guys bidding for regional commands, which could edge you out further.

2) Well this could go back to original scope talks and the handover over the BAR bases to CX. I know there was a limited deal on offer then, although who limited it and why they did it was never fully established. My personal suspicion is that BA did not want several hundred more pilots on higher pay. In terms of support from the mainline community directly, it should be borne in mind that those scope negotiations were conducted in a spirit of confrontation rather than co-operation. CX negotiators wanted no place whatsoever in the regions for the displaced regional pilots. The general tone on this forum (unrepresentative of a whole company I know) was that the greedy, lazy BA pilots should **** off back to London and stop trying to steal their commands at BHX and MAN as CX could do it better, cheaper and more profitably. Unfortunately, that didn't really engender much of a spirit of brotherly love, with the result that those BA pilots who ever had any interest in the regional operation are rather less inclined to make waves in support of CX.

I think in the end the BACC told the CXCC that they were either with us or against us, and they chose to be against us. The BACC then succesfully negotiated what we wanted anyway and have now moved on to issues which affect the mainline community more immediately. I'm sure the issue could be revisited if there was a willingness on both sides, but whether BA would consider negotiating this with BALPA given the current parlous state of the business is anyones guess. Thats just my rambling view of the situation, I dare say there are plenty who'll contradict me. I don't think theres any great dislike of CX within BA, but then equally I don't think theres any great interest within the career London based guys. Its simply a question of lack of awareness and BACC having a lot on their plate.

Rider of the Purple Sage
6th Nov 2003, 21:43
Good posting HS.
It'd be enlightening to hear from a CXCC representative on the same questions, though probly irrelevent and unhelpful. More interesting would be a proposal from CXCC to confirm establishment of comon ground and common policy on the great seniority list and mainline access debate.
More to be achieved working together than apart, Tim et al must be cheering at the lack of unity shown so far in all this. I think CXCC must accept they do not have the firepower on their own.

Mind you, I think CX is rubberducked anyway.:uhoh:

6th Nov 2003, 23:18

"all the tottie I can handle"

When did you leave BA? Or are you not of a heterosexual inclination??

Any BACX pilots who are up to the job (and let's face it, there are some BA pilots who aren't!) should be given access to mainline in a similar fashion to CFE. However, I'm not to sure 'Grandfather Rights' as such would be appropriate unless BA replaced RJs or ERJs with another type at a particular base.

6th Nov 2003, 23:59

The "tottie" reference was very much tongue in cheek - that's unless you are into 50 yearold spinsters who live in bitter isolation near Windsor......

Rider of the Purple Sage
7th Nov 2003, 01:06
Thanks Tandemrotor.

I don't think the vast majority of us would want any more than that, and clearly the grandad rights are potentially tricky - but surely solvable between people of goodwill. I know not all the CFE skippers retained commands, and obviously not all of us may. Probably only existing regional commands would be applicable, and as someone said, senior FOs with us would probably lose out to some mainline FOs in the bidding. Its never one way, you win some bits, you lose some, but overall, CX have far more to gain than lose in pure career options in the long term for most of us. OK, some senior prop Capts would lose out too. However that would be a small price to pay for the security of being part of the BA BALPA community - and no disrespect for our CC either. Its just as Stalin said though - "How many divisions has the pope"? and we are badly outgunned by our management at present.

One can but hope. :hmm:

beaver eager
7th Nov 2003, 01:17
Of course, if some of you guys were to forsake Golden Runways in favour of the overworked but small and friendly West Sussex base, you would find that totty really did abound! :D Most of the 'new blood' is ex-CFE of course but there are some crackers who were already there!

Not that I ever get near any mind you! :{ ... Unless you count spending money on them in the Bar that is... (Even bigger :{ :{ ).

As for those who are a little less youthful, many of the ex-Dan pursers still have a twinkle in their eyes... I bet they were a riot 20 years ago! :tounge hanging out smiley:

Going back to BACX, my informed source from the BACXCC tells me that it was BA management who scuppered the previous 'integration' plans, rather than any specific failure to agree terms between the two BALPA groups. My understanding is that BA only wanted the Jet pilots involved in the deal, but the BACXCC stood up for their turboprop brothers and with an 'all or nothing' stance. Hence, they are where they are now, with most of the the Jetstream pilots working for Eastern Airways! I suspect that BA knew they were getting shot of the J41 fleet and wanted to delay the 'integration' until after the sale to Eastern. This could explain why it is (rumoured to be) back on the agenda again. That last bit is just my two pennorth guess, you understand.

Pin Head
7th Nov 2003, 03:25
I think there is a legal view with poss base closures soon to be announced at BACX. At a time when big brother will be needing pilots.

bring on that employment tribunial.

Amazon man
7th Nov 2003, 08:04
Here is the informed view.

In principle BA have agreed that should there be an excess of pilots in BACX then assuming that mainline were recruiting and that the BA secondees flying the RJ in BHX had no desire to return to Heathrow, that Pilots in BACX will be allowed to apply for mainline jobs.

However any selection will be done on a seniority basis and not the automatic selection of the particular pilots deemed surplus to requirements. Potential candidates will have to pass the BA selection process but will not have to undertake the sim ride.

All pilots taken on will be as 1st year pilots on the relevant payscale and more than likely employed on the shorthaul fleet.

Thats it in a nutshell and any other versions reported here are incorrect.

7th Nov 2003, 17:24
Here is another informed view - without any union claptrap.

As far as I understand it, BA and BACX are seperate legal entities or companies. Hence, seperate AOCs, pension schemes, T and Cs and the like. BA could become bankrupt without bringing BACX down, or vice versa!

Surely then, those who wish to join BA may apply for positions that are available, irrespective of their present employer, just like dear old ETOPS did when Manx was an airline in its own right.

The fact that both airlines, BA and BACX, ultimately have the same ownership is of no legal significance here. I think that it follows that there would be something called a tort in effect if Big BA excluded BACX pilots from appling for available jobs in BA if and when they start recruiting.

It's a free world mateys and you do not need to abide by any artificial restrictions placed on your employment by either your employer, potential employer or union.

Of course, there is a real world out there. Being shafted in your aspirations by any cosy arrangement made between BACX pilot management, a BA secondee don't forget, BA and/or the union would be a real pi55er wouldn't it?

Any legal mind out there care to comment or, indeed, anyone care to give it a run?

8th Nov 2003, 04:07
:ugh: Could somebody shed some light on what oscarH has had to say? I should dearly like to have the opportunity to move to BA Mainline, the benefits of which would be obvious. Can the Company (s) BALPA etc. stitch us up? are we tainted for having been employed by BACX?

Rider of the Purple Sage
8th Nov 2003, 06:13
I would love to have the chance to move to mainline too. Maybe it will happen, maybe not, maybe it would be similar to moving from the ER to the Intensive Care ward, who knows.
Only thing for sure is that our management ( a complimentary and VERY nominal term you appreciate) has its strings pulled by mainline. Hence you can depend that our combination of in-house managers have their priorities set on getting mainline contracts (most of all our CPtech) and our mainline imports have both already tried to rebid into other mainline positions (AM) or similar. Our main man has probably sussed he is with us sink or swim, but HE has a golden parachute back into mainline.

Bottom line - anyone's guess, but I would bet my redundancy money (ha ha what a paltry sum) on the whole lot reducing to a rump of MAN/BHX, and no mainline options.

Think of what you would most like to happen, think of the most uninspired, octogenarian led cockup, and you have where we will be come mid next year. Laugh, I could write a book about this lot.

Amazon man
8th Nov 2003, 16:31
Rider of the Purple Sage

With all due respect if you are indeed an employee of BACX may I suggest that you stop upsetting yourself with all the conspiratorial theories of what is and isn't going on inside BACX management and their plans for their future careers.

If you or your colleagues had bothered turning up for recent forums at Man and Bhx ( I believe 12 at Man and 8 at Bhx ) than you could have directed your questions at the management concerned, you would have also learned that as from this week the management will have not have as you put it 'their strings pulled from mainline management', as they are to be given a much more autonomous role in running BACX. In my opinion if you are not prepared to turn up or direct your concerns personally to the individuals concerned then don't whinge and moan and postulate theories which are generally inaccurate on an anonymous forum.

The truth is that if you want to apply for a mainline position then you are free to do so but then if you are going to get a possible headstart before outside applicants why bother, nobody in BACX can stop you applying and if you really think your application will be disadvantaged because you are already an employee of BACX may I suggest that you check for bugging devices, hidden camera in your flight bag and strangers keeping watch on your person. With this amount of paranoia maybe you should consider another career.

The other very obvious truth if indeed you had attended a forum is that BA mainline still has a long way to go before they recover to pre 9/11, with more changes ahead for their flightdeck as with a great deal of other airlines in the UK. To that end if you are getting reasonably well paid and are some way up a seniority list then may I suggest unless you have a great desire to fly some other piece of machinery and lets face it whatever you or I end up flying the same problems, moans and whinges exist in every other airline, that you stay put and attempt like the rest of us to do our bit and turn BACX around into a profitable airline that has got a good future ahead with the addition of new equipment possibly within the next 2/3 years.

I apologise to all and sundry for this diatribe and here I hastily point out that I am not management, I am personally fed up with the continual sniping at management, CPs etc etc. I too have moaned and whinged like you but if your not prepared to do this directly to the individuals concerned via personal e-mail, telephone, company intranet site or at the forums when they are held then don't do it here, they are all big boys and can handle personal criticism as long as it done in such a way as not to score points and to be personally vindictive.

Lets stop the moaning, the BA mainline has more than we do attitude, the world or BA/BACX do not owe us a living or a L/R seat in a B747. Let us get back to turning both companies around then and only then will there be opportunities for all.

8th Nov 2003, 20:11
What I should of course have said in my earlier post, advocating access for BACX pilots to mainline, is....

In exchange for mainline access to positions at BHX and MAN!

Which, with the exception of the incumbants, does NOT currently exist!

Who could argue against that?

8th Nov 2003, 22:39
:) Yep, sounds good to me. All seniority list/access/scope deals have pros and cons, winners and losers. To pretend any one 'side' will get all that it wants is silly. Getting the best possible deal for the biggest majority of everybody should be the objective, with some sort of easement for those who will undoubtedly lose out. In spite of many doubts, I firmly believe the first offer to get the RJ/146 guys on the list should have gone ahead. The same argument about getting the 'foot in the door' being used now was even more relevant and advantageous then, but our CXCC couldn't see it - what an opportunity lost!!! We'd probably have everyone on the list by now, and be so much stronger collectively.

Far more winners than losers whichever way you cut it.:ok:

So, how does this move to the BACC agenda, because until that is achieved, it's going nowhere?:uhoh:

9th Nov 2003, 01:51
For chrissake Amazon Man. By all means if you are brave (or foolhardy) enough, make your points directly to our cretinous management.
However, it cannot have escaped your notice the way some of the most vocal have been affected in career progression....:(

Purely coincidence, I'm sure:}

However, I agree with ROTPS, in nearly every respect. Posting here lets off steam, and educates the industry as to just what a lot of incompetents, hypocrites, self-serving underachievers and mainline lickspittles we currently have for our guvnors.

Actually DOING anything about it.....:ugh:
Not so easy, other than to congratulate and encourage our CC in every respect. :ok:

Just hope they can talk to their BA equivalents, and pull the two pilot communities closer together and on to the same seniority list.
Yep, I'm anonymous.;) That's because frankly I'm not brave enough to use my real name on the company or BALPA forums (management penetrated well and truly), I have no desire to be fu#ked over any more than I already am.:{

Let's hope this first small step becomes a stampede.:E

9th Nov 2003, 15:41
A senior BACC rep on the BA forum has confirmed that the BACC has not been approached by BA. Amazon Man's "informed' view is spot on.