BACX pilots to gain access to mainline
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BACX pilots to gain access to mainline
Now confirmed by a senior BALPA source that an initial batch of thirty pilots ,from the top of the BACX seniority list ,will be joining BA as 757 first officers.Formal announcement in days rather than weeks.
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Mr Saurus
Would you care to define 'the top 30'. From my copy of the seniority list and my knowledge of quite a few of 'the top 30' the last thing any of them would be interested in would be joing BA as 757 FOs - captains perhaps!
Would you care to define 'the top 30'. From my copy of the seniority list and my knowledge of quite a few of 'the top 30' the last thing any of them would be interested in would be joing BA as 757 FOs - captains perhaps!
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Looks like this is the start of BA CitiExpress pilots entering the BA Mainline senitority list as and when vacancies arise within Mainline. The top 30 on the seniority list within CitiExpress will probably discount most captains as they would take a pay cut. But to be one of the lucky 30 will prob. mean you will have to be a fairly senior FO in CitiExpress with 5+ years seniority.
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Many Jet skippers wont really be interested but there are certainly a sizeable minority who would be particulary if there are long/medium haul opportunities so they dont have to move house.
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J11 - I agree that most of those numbered 1 to 30 would not be interested in a 757 F/O spot ; this is why I wrote "from the top of the BACX seniority list" (as opposed to the top 30).In other words bids will be strictly based on seniority rather than Jet qualified or any of the other previously suggested criterion.
I think you are a little bit out with your information.The pilots at the top of BACX list will be allowed to go through the interview process, and if successful will get BA shorthaul , and lose there final salary pension.
What a deal -sign me up now!!
If I remember correctly you are type frozen for 5 years with BA, so it's not much of a draw for anyone who wants longhaul.
I cannot think of many people in the top 200 in CX who would want the hassle of , interview and then being a career F/o,on poor money based in LHR.
What a deal -sign me up now!!
If I remember correctly you are type frozen for 5 years with BA, so it's not much of a draw for anyone who wants longhaul.
I cannot think of many people in the top 200 in CX who would want the hassle of , interview and then being a career F/o,on poor money based in LHR.
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Alosaurus - I think previous debates on this forum have revealed that senior BALPA sources within BACX have frequently been wide of the mark!
On the basis of the complete absence of comment by anyone within BA BALPA I'd guess that 145qrh is probably closer to the mark, with some CX pilots getting to jump the gun on BAs external recruitment process. Why and how they're restricting this to the top 30 beats me. 145 is correct about the initial five year engagement freeze, plus any DEP joining now is likely to be 10+ years to command at best. Great deal. I suspect BA expect to have a hard time recruiting soon and this may be the first manifestation of that.
On the basis of the complete absence of comment by anyone within BA BALPA I'd guess that 145qrh is probably closer to the mark, with some CX pilots getting to jump the gun on BAs external recruitment process. Why and how they're restricting this to the top 30 beats me. 145 is correct about the initial five year engagement freeze, plus any DEP joining now is likely to be 10+ years to command at best. Great deal. I suspect BA expect to have a hard time recruiting soon and this may be the first manifestation of that.
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Trying to restrict it to a 'one off' event is my guess. Last thing CX management want is any formalising of relations between plastic and platinum BAs in the immediate future. This is because there are probably even more closures/bad news to come. When all the dust settles, there will be nothing left except BHX / MAN, effectively BAR on a regional cost base. (and probably STILL losing money)
Expect THEN that a CityFlyer amalgamation will happen to the lucky
few remaining - unless of course the whole thing has gone down the drain!!!
Expect THEN that a CityFlyer amalgamation will happen to the lucky
few remaining - unless of course the whole thing has gone down the drain!!!
Last edited by Captain Correlli; 6th Nov 2003 at 02:17.
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well known DE has not got any of those items, serving his time till pension date (and doubtless huge time-served bung).
But then again, do any of them have the moral backbone to admit either real intentions, or lack of imagination therof??
I doubt it. God help us all, because BA won't. 
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Question for Hand Solo
Hand you generally seem to represent mainline opinion.
1. What is the mainline view of CX joining the master seniority list at the bottom, just like CFE did?
2. Why are the mainline CC not offering more obvious support to CXCC to achieve this, since at worst it is neutral in terms of effect on mainline guys, and at best increases the support and clout of BA BALPA in overall terms?
1. What is the mainline view of CX joining the master seniority list at the bottom, just like CFE did?
2. Why are the mainline CC not offering more obvious support to CXCC to achieve this, since at worst it is neutral in terms of effect on mainline guys, and at best increases the support and clout of BA BALPA in overall terms?
Boy, am I glad I'm out of it! Good luck to all who remain, hope it keeps going long enough to collect your pensions.
Cornflake
Nobody in BA mainline is objecting to BACX pilots joining any fleet at the bottom of the seniority list. If they are suitably qualified and pass selection then good luck to them. It worked for me - I left a comfortable command in BACX (well Manx as was) for the big unknown of BA, joined at the end of the list and did my time in the righthand seat. Now I command a 777 and have enough seniority to get the trips I like ( 4 day BGI tomorrow) as well as all the tottie I can handle. The pays not bad either......
Nobody in BA mainline is objecting to BACX pilots joining any fleet at the bottom of the seniority list. If they are suitably qualified and pass selection then good luck to them. It worked for me - I left a comfortable command in BACX (well Manx as was) for the big unknown of BA, joined at the end of the list and did my time in the righthand seat. Now I command a 777 and have enough seniority to get the trips I like ( 4 day BGI tomorrow) as well as all the tottie I can handle. The pays not bad either......
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I wouldn't go as far as saying I represent mainline opinion Cornflake! But as you asked, my opinions on your questions are:
1) I don't think many people would object to that. The thorny issue in all this could be grandfather rights, i.e. what happens to CX Captains if their position disappears in CX. The ex-CFE Captains, who's positions disappeared through no fault of their own, have been granted out of seniority commands at LGW or have gone as very junior P2 to long haul on protected pay. The commands were allocated on a pro-rata basis of EOG/CFE aircraft at LGW prior to the merger. As CX don't operate out of London bases, any reduction of the CX fleet would mean those Captains scrambling for a position within existing CX bases or moving as an FO to London and I'm not sure thats an attractive proposal for you given current times to command. Then again, if the fleet shrinks whats the alternative? Also, any direct merger of seniority lists could see plenty of mainline guys bidding for regional commands, which could edge you out further.
2) Well this could go back to original scope talks and the handover over the BAR bases to CX. I know there was a limited deal on offer then, although who limited it and why they did it was never fully established. My personal suspicion is that BA did not want several hundred more pilots on higher pay. In terms of support from the mainline community directly, it should be borne in mind that those scope negotiations were conducted in a spirit of confrontation rather than co-operation. CX negotiators wanted no place whatsoever in the regions for the displaced regional pilots. The general tone on this forum (unrepresentative of a whole company I know) was that the greedy, lazy BA pilots should **** off back to London and stop trying to steal their commands at BHX and MAN as CX could do it better, cheaper and more profitably. Unfortunately, that didn't really engender much of a spirit of brotherly love, with the result that those BA pilots who ever had any interest in the regional operation are rather less inclined to make waves in support of CX.
I think in the end the BACC told the CXCC that they were either with us or against us, and they chose to be against us. The BACC then succesfully negotiated what we wanted anyway and have now moved on to issues which affect the mainline community more immediately. I'm sure the issue could be revisited if there was a willingness on both sides, but whether BA would consider negotiating this with BALPA given the current parlous state of the business is anyones guess. Thats just my rambling view of the situation, I dare say there are plenty who'll contradict me. I don't think theres any great dislike of CX within BA, but then equally I don't think theres any great interest within the career London based guys. Its simply a question of lack of awareness and BACC having a lot on their plate.
1) I don't think many people would object to that. The thorny issue in all this could be grandfather rights, i.e. what happens to CX Captains if their position disappears in CX. The ex-CFE Captains, who's positions disappeared through no fault of their own, have been granted out of seniority commands at LGW or have gone as very junior P2 to long haul on protected pay. The commands were allocated on a pro-rata basis of EOG/CFE aircraft at LGW prior to the merger. As CX don't operate out of London bases, any reduction of the CX fleet would mean those Captains scrambling for a position within existing CX bases or moving as an FO to London and I'm not sure thats an attractive proposal for you given current times to command. Then again, if the fleet shrinks whats the alternative? Also, any direct merger of seniority lists could see plenty of mainline guys bidding for regional commands, which could edge you out further.
2) Well this could go back to original scope talks and the handover over the BAR bases to CX. I know there was a limited deal on offer then, although who limited it and why they did it was never fully established. My personal suspicion is that BA did not want several hundred more pilots on higher pay. In terms of support from the mainline community directly, it should be borne in mind that those scope negotiations were conducted in a spirit of confrontation rather than co-operation. CX negotiators wanted no place whatsoever in the regions for the displaced regional pilots. The general tone on this forum (unrepresentative of a whole company I know) was that the greedy, lazy BA pilots should **** off back to London and stop trying to steal their commands at BHX and MAN as CX could do it better, cheaper and more profitably. Unfortunately, that didn't really engender much of a spirit of brotherly love, with the result that those BA pilots who ever had any interest in the regional operation are rather less inclined to make waves in support of CX.
I think in the end the BACC told the CXCC that they were either with us or against us, and they chose to be against us. The BACC then succesfully negotiated what we wanted anyway and have now moved on to issues which affect the mainline community more immediately. I'm sure the issue could be revisited if there was a willingness on both sides, but whether BA would consider negotiating this with BALPA given the current parlous state of the business is anyones guess. Thats just my rambling view of the situation, I dare say there are plenty who'll contradict me. I don't think theres any great dislike of CX within BA, but then equally I don't think theres any great interest within the career London based guys. Its simply a question of lack of awareness and BACC having a lot on their plate.
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Good posting HS.
It'd be enlightening to hear from a CXCC representative on the same questions, though probly irrelevent and unhelpful. More interesting would be a proposal from CXCC to confirm establishment of comon ground and common policy on the great seniority list and mainline access debate.
More to be achieved working together than apart, Tim et al must be cheering at the lack of unity shown so far in all this. I think CXCC must accept they do not have the firepower on their own.
Mind you, I think CX is rubberducked anyway.
It'd be enlightening to hear from a CXCC representative on the same questions, though probly irrelevent and unhelpful. More interesting would be a proposal from CXCC to confirm establishment of comon ground and common policy on the great seniority list and mainline access debate.
More to be achieved working together than apart, Tim et al must be cheering at the lack of unity shown so far in all this. I think CXCC must accept they do not have the firepower on their own.
Mind you, I think CX is rubberducked anyway.