View Full Version : What A/C now for BE!
Sky Blue
15th Dec 2001, 13:52
With Bae Systems winding down and scrapping the new Avro RJX programme as written in this months Airliner World, what will Brit European be looking for to replace such formidable Aircraft as their existing 146 fleet. Surely with their existing route network such as Belfast City and London City, not many A/C will fit the bill like a new Avro RJX.
Buster the Bear
15th Dec 2001, 14:59
I see Boeing are to continue production of the 717.
Once upon a time trials were to be undertaken about its possible use into airports like London City. Did this actually occur?
Sky Blue
15th Dec 2001, 23:31
The CRJ-700 could definetly operate within British Europeans fleet quite well, considering that they have until recently operated the CRJ-200. CRJ-700 is partly built un the UK by Shorts this is also good news.
However they could also could go Airbus with the A318, especially on high density Belfast London and London Paris/channel islands routes.
Whatever route they do go I presume the Avro RJX was what they were looking for, but at the same time the 146's currently in service still have plenty of flying hours in them yet!!
ALTSEL
15th Dec 2001, 23:49
WOW! wait until RawData reads this stuff, you boy's are going to be in big trouble.
BIK, it is 'Edinburgh', not Edinborough, even if you yanks pronounce it the later!
BTW, BE 146's into LCY will soon not even be an issue, watch this space!
dik dastardly
16th Dec 2001, 01:00
are they seriously considering the CRJ700. Thought it may of been a case of once bitten, twice shy?
Raw Data
16th Dec 2001, 03:05
Nah, ALTSEL, I really can't be bothered! ;)
Meeb, I'll think you'll find that the ppruner you accuse of being a yank is in fact a UK domiciled Aussie (the clue being in the username).
BTW, whatever you think you know about BE, LCY, and the 146- you don't. We resume with a 146 into LCY very soon, replacing the Titan aircraft that has been subbing for us since the EDI 146 was re-deployed for first the new NCL routes, then the new BRU routes. This, not for several months as BIK alleges, but actually only since Gill went down (about ten weeks?) We seem to be one of the few operators without enough aircraft or pilots!
The new Q400 is now in revenue service between EDI and BHX, maybe that is where you got your wires crossed.
Oh, and on the subject of what we get if we don't get the RJX (which has NOT, I repeat NOT yet been decided), I don't think anyone believes that we will go down the the CRJ route (apart from in the dreams of some CRJ crews that is). The A318 (for example) is a far more logical choice for us.
BTW BIK is also potentially wrong on the subject of making money with the respective types, it depends a lot on fleet size and other factors. Why do you think it is all the low-cost carriers operate 737s? Apart from Buzz of course.
If anyone was to ask me what we should get next, I'd say A318/319/320. No contest.
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Raw Data ]
No wires being crossed, just watch out for major news next year!
Looks like Meeb is on another of his fishing expeditions!
As there is a continuing commitment by BE to the route, and nobody in the frame to challenge them, his statement is cheeky to say the least.
He's probably thinking about the oft-promised 328Jet and ScotAirways... excuse me while I pop outside for a good laugh... :D
starship
16th Dec 2001, 05:35
G-JEDI is a mean machine - nice to see her flying. Good luck guys and girls.
dundoniandean
16th Dec 2001, 17:41
Forgive me if this has already been discussed on another thread, but have easyJet hinted towards any routes with their LGW plans? I think I heard LGW/BCN? Will they challenge the BFS route and the BA(and partners) monopoly on LGW/Scotland?? Will BA still be flying these routes soon??
In trim
17th Dec 2001, 00:19
Beanflicker,
The Easy LGW-BCN route already announced. Starts mid-Feb with 1/day, rising to 3/day for the summer.
As for the other routes, not sure....but I suspect you're not too far off the mark!!
Raw Data
17th Dec 2001, 03:50
Well, the 717 certainly wasn't a "done deal" on Friday!
I don't buy that rumour for the following reasons:
1)BE are still negotiating with BAe over the RJX order- no decision as of Friday.
2)If BE don't go with the RJX, it is highly likely that whatever deal is done between them and BAe will include the acquisition of some AirBii, as BAe produce bits of it, are part of the consortium, and no doubt they could offset any contractual penalties incurred against orders for the Airbus.
3)Should BE go for the Airbus, for the reasons mentioned above, they are likely to get a very friendly price, I doubt whether Boeing could come close.
4)As far as I know (and I have asked a few people who should know), the 717 is not approved for LCY and is not likely to ever be so approved. There's more to it than just field performance, noise and parking manoueverability are also prime considerations.
More than happy to eat humble pie if necessary, of course... :D :D :D
Gemini the Cricket
17th Dec 2001, 04:14
No Barcode and no RD. You are all wrong.
Here is the true story.
BE is going to go for the A400C. It is the civilian version of the A400M. Have a look at http://www.airbus-military.com/
No kidding, the ideal aircraft.
Four engine turboprop, with awsome short field performances. LCY will be a laugh for this aircraft of extreme versatility and reliability. Launch expected in 2015, when BE will be the main UK operator flying to all continents.
After bying BA, Virgin and Ryanair, BE needed a new type of aircraft for some remote airfields in Africa and Asia. The A400C is the optimum solution and the annoucement next week by Airbus and BE together, of 250 orders of the type will be a big blow for Boeing and Bombardier.
Sorry guys but in the rumour competition I think I won. I GOT THIS INFORMATION FROM RELIABLE SOURCE OFF COURSE :D :D :D
Raw Data
17th Dec 2001, 09:24
No, I assumed the same as you did, ie keep some RJs or 146s for LCY and use a more sensible aircraft for everything else. The point about 717/LCY was to answer another post.
I spoke to a director late on Friday and at that stage, no decision had been taken, so I'm not sure where you are getting your info from. From what I was told, there is a long way still to go with this... but hey, who knows apart from them wot are involved??
I'd certainly be more than happy with a 717 from a piloting point of view, so I hope you are right!
Sky Blue
17th Dec 2001, 21:19
717 is a well built A/C, however Airlines like British Euro will not buy it just because of the price. Both Airbus and Bombardier would easily meet Boeings prices to get a sale epecially in these darker days.
BE will be disapointed the Avro RJX programme is not going ahead it was perfect for them, however now it has to look for an aircraft with simular performance the 717 does not have this performance.
SB
akerosid
17th Dec 2001, 21:48
Personally, the A318/319 seems a far more logical choice to me and it certainly hope it goes down this road. I don't know how the 318/319 would fare into LCY (my immediate thinking is "fat chance"), but the 146s are hardly long in tooth and the Dash8-400 could take up the slack in due course.
LAVDUMPER
18th Dec 2001, 00:47
What about the Dornier 728 Jet or the Embraer 175/195? I know that they won't necessarily be available for a few more years, but both will "allegedly" be capable of flying into LCY.
Crossair is the launch customer for the funky-looking Embraer 170 and Embraer has guaranteed its ability to meet LCY requirements.
Rockwell
18th Dec 2001, 02:40
The third RJX (white no livery) and the first for BE is now on pre-flight engine runs.
The RJX development programme is 99% complete and flight testing is expected to continue until type certification, this has been budgeted for.
The entire RJ(X) aircraft programme will then be shunted off to any country willing to have it, with India favourite at the moment.
So BE could still get its RJX - assuming it still wants them. Might have a 'Made in Wherever' label on some of them, though :)
Sky Blue
18th Dec 2001, 14:20
''Made in India you must be joking''
Ace Rimmer
18th Dec 2001, 14:38
Here at Rimmer News we've been looking at this question since the demise of the RJX and this is what we reckon of the various runners and riders:
EMB170/175: A strong possibility, John Doyle was on the blower to Big Jim within an hour of the RJX announcement. The 170 will be LCY capable since that is a requirement of Crossair as launch customer (it's in the contract no cert no order). The 175 is a bijou strech-ette which takes max seating to 86 or CRJ900 size but it will not be LCY capable. Additionally there is the high commonality with the 190/195 which would take them up to 108 seats for non LCY routes with the same type rating.
CRJ700: Less likely for two reasons, 1 it ain't LCY capable - can't make the single engine miss Canary Wharf climb requirement. 2 BE is still trying to get out of the CRJ200 deal.
A318/319: Only feasible if the LCY requirement is left to the Q400s and other Dash8s. But there is always the cost problem of shrink a/c especially in the case of the 318. In addition there are some questions about the 318 programme - it too could be for the chop (or so some of the rumors go)
717: As per the 318/319 in that the LCY requirement would have to be dropped but we reckon that have taken the decision to continue production Boeing will match Airbus pricing to shift some more a/c. On the other hand, it's a pretty heavy a/c for a 110 seater in modern terms.
In short, the at Rimmer news we reckon Embraer has got to be a good bet but - but if not the 717 could be an outsider worth a punt.
How about ex Crossair Avro RJ ? Introducing a new acft is very expensive and BE knows very well about that. Staying with BAe product is plane common sense for the moment.