Intro to Aeros - some advice please

[walkabout]

Hi all,

I'm interested in starting aerobatics training and am based in West London, so White Waltham and Wycombe are the most convenient. Wycombe do an intro course in a C150 (I think) and White Waltham/David Cassidy does dual training in a Pitts.

I've got 180 hrs TT, IMC and MEP ratings but no taildragger experience and only 1 hour with a stick! For obvious reasons training in a Pitts has great appeal but I'm a bit concerned that it may be trying to run before walking.

I'd be grateful for any input especially from those of you who fly aeros.

W

[Vedeneyev]

do it in the pitts - the instructor will do all the dull stuff like landing so that you can concentrate on improving your aeros - if you want to learn taildragging do a second course in a cub or similar. aeros in a c150 won't help you unless all you want is a basic intro...

[Phoenix09]

There is another company that does aerobatic training based at White Waltham. This is the London Aerobatic Company who use the CAP10B for training. They sell themselves as a "gentler introduction to aerobatics" :D

Their website can be found here. (http://www.london-aeros.co.uk/)

[Miserlou]

Aerobatic pilots don't consider the 150 an aerobatic aircraft so if you can't get to the Tiger Club at Headcorn then I'd suggest the Cap 10, as above.

Once you've got a bit of tailwheel time and mastered basic aeros you will better appreciate the Pitts; it's reputation is both better and worse than it really is!

[Evo]

I'd also go for the CAP10 - it is a fantastic aeroplane and I think it's probably a more practical choice too. If you get hooked on aeros (if? of course you will :ok: ) then you'll want to fly something aerobatic afterwards, and the CAP10 is closer to the kind of aeroplane you can easily (and cheaply!) hire. I'd love a go in a Pitts or Extra, but i kind of doubt that aeros in a Pitts have much in common with the Robin or 152 Aerobat you'll probably find yourself in afterwards.

Of course, if money isn't an issue learn on the Pitts ... and keep flying it afterwards :)

[AerBabe]

I'm another fan of the Cap10B ... although I've only logged 35 min (but that was with Cas Smith). :O It's a lovely aircraft, which is really responsive, but gentle.
As with every other aspect of aviation - don't commit yourself until you've had a go. If you get on with the Pitts, and can afford it, go for it.

Lucky sod. :*

[Aerobatic Flyer]

The most important thing with aerobatics is the instructor. The aeroplane is secondary.

Alan Cassidy is one of the most respected aerobatics instructors you will find (unfortunately I've never flown with him, but others here have), and the Pitts is a lot of fun. It also climbs to aerobatic training height very quickly which is useful.

However, having said that, I'm not sure I'd recommnd the Pitts or the Cap initially.

Some manouvers in the Pitts are too easy. You can fly a passable roll just by moving the stick to one side for a couple of seconds. Try that in something with a slower roll rate, and you will quickly realise just how little you know about rolling! On the other hand, if you can successfully roll a Cessna (or a Slingsby, or Robin, or Citabria, or Chipmunk, or... ) I guarantee you'll be able to roll the Pitts.

Similarly the Pitts will fly a passable stall turn with quite a range of entry speeds, whereas a lot of lower powered types need just the right speed and have to be "coaxed" a bit more.

The Pitts has a constant speed prop, which makes life very easy when flying aeros. But in the early days of aerobatics, it's not a bad thing to fly with a fixed pitch prop, and develop a healthy concern for not overspeeding the engine. It's a bit like driving a car with a manual gearbox - you can convert to an automatic very easily, but if you learn in an auto it takes longer to convert to the manual.

As for the Cap, it's delightful - but has a couple of drawbacks. First is the current (and hopefully temporary) restriction of the G limits. You can very easily overstress it, so your instructor will have to take control early if manouvers go a bit wrong. It's not a bad thing to develop a slight paranoia about overstressing, and to always glance at the accelerometer as you pull into a manouver, but in the early days it's perhaps nicer to be able to screw things up without worrying about pulling the wings off.

Second drawback of the Cap is that it's also a bit easy. The roll rate isn't Pitts fast, but it's way faster than a lot of other machines.

The ideal solution, in my opinion, is to find a goodinstructor with a draggy aeroplane that doesn't roll too quickly, but which has a decent rate of climb so you don't waste too much time climbing.

Good luck!

[shortstripper]

Hi Walkabout,

Why do you want to do aero's? Thrill seeking? .... no? well at least I hope not. Frankly, judging by some of the replies you've had I wonder if that isn't what motivates too many :ugh:

Aerobatics are about fine tuning a skill, about getting the best out of both yourself and your machine. They are about grace, finesse and dare I say it ... they are Art!

If you trully want to learn how to be aerobatic then you must first trully know how to fly accurately and with panash. People saying that landing a Pitts is just "the dull stuff" is like telling you that a well balenced oversteer in a rally car is just "going around a bend" Find a true aerobatic pilot and he won't say that he considers a C150 not to be aerobatic; he might say that it's not really competitive any more, but he'll never say the former!

Don't worry if your mount is a lowly 150 if that's in your price range. You will learn a lot in anything with the right instructor. Indeed, CAP10's, Pitts ect ect are fine aerobatic aircraft ... but ask yourself if they are not too good? what will you fly after? Will it be a small homebuilt? a Chipmunk or something similar? Will all that power, those crisp roll rates ect teach you about power management, adverse yaw with large control inputs and all the other problems. They will flatter you and make you feel like you are good ... but will you be?

So, my advice is firstly, find a good aerobatic instructor who will teach you ... not just show you. Secondly, don't be swayed by those who think aerobatics are about sexy aeroplanes and impressing the girlfriend. And thirdly, well .... do it because you really want to but do it properly :D

Have Fun

IM

[shortstripper]

Opps! Seems I was writing my last message at the same time that aerobatic flyer was posting his. I'd echo what he says and it's nice to see someone else on the same wavelength.

Also sorry if my post comes across as a bit sanctamonious (spelt wrong I'm sure). In the cold light of day (well cold dark of morning actually) it does read a bit OTT.

IM

[djpil]

The Melbourne Aerobatic Club held a workshop (http://www.ozaeros.com/clubaeros/workshop.htm) here last week on this very subject. Advice was similar to that provided by shortstripper and AerobaticFlyer.
What's your objective? Sunday afternoon loops or something more serious (but be warned - aerobatics is addictive).
Do you want to stick to tricycle gear aeroplanes or not?
There are instructors who'll teach basic aerobatics in a Pitts and others have commented on the pros and cons of that. The Cessna Aerobat is a great little aerobatic trainer. The Decathlon is an excellent aerobatic trainer.
The above considerations should result in a shortlist of flying schools. The final step is to choose a good instructor and some-one that you'll get on with.

[stiknruda]

I agree with most of SS and AF's posts, too. I currently campaign a Pitts but did my initial aeros in a Citabria with a great lady instructor, then some in a C150A taildragger, then moved onto the CAP before the Pitts.

Learning the basics on the lower powered machines was definetely a bonus.

Walkabout, you wrote:- White Waltham/David Cassidy does dual training in a Pitts

At the Advanced/Unlimited Nationals this year, the contest director suggested that Alan Cassidy (having won the Unlimited trophy for the 3rd time), formerly known as "Uncle" be called, "The Master".

Personally, I think that David is a far better appelation - you did make me laugh!

Whatever you do aerobatic-wise - do try and enjoy it, it will grow on you!


Stik

[walkabout]

Thanks everyone for the input and good advice.

AF - hear all you say but location (time constraints) are a problem for me and I'm struggling to find your ideal suggestion in my area - unless you/anyone else have any ideas? Otherwise I think I'll start on the CAP10 at WW (according to their web site, the instructors are well qualified, although I can't actually find anything on aero instruction/ors at Wycombe) and try the Pitts (price differential is actually 'only' £16/hr) when/if I reach a level of competence.

Shortstripper - couldn't agree more about attitude, but don't agree that professional, accurate flying and the thrill factor are mutually exclusive - rather the contrary given the right attitude.

djpil - I don't think I'll be able to be firm on my objective until I've tried and seen how I get on with it........although a friend of a very good mate of mine tells me 'it's better than s*x', and he's French.......! I hope he's right.


Thanks again for all the input and apologies to Alan Cassidy for mixing him up in my first post with a 70's teenie pop idol. Will post to let let you know how I got on.

Stik

Our posts crossed - I was hoping I'd got away with the David bit and I'd be the one to correct it (I haven't worked out edit yet) but well spotted!

Point taken (finally) on lower powered machines, I'll do a bit more research on the instruction at Wycombe and decide then.

Thanks all.

W

[Brooklands]

Walkabout,

The Aerobats at Wycombe are 152s, not 150s so have a bit more power (118bhp engines I think). However, I'm not sure which of the instructors are qualified to teach aeros though.


Brooklands

[Aerobatic Flyer]

price differential is actually 'only' £16/hr

I realise I'm a bit spoilt in France, where a Cap 10B costs usually between £70 and £120 / hour dual, but the £185/hr charged for the White Waltham Cap seems excessive - even if the quality of what is being offered looks to be very good. (By way of comparison, Sherburn Aero Club in Yorkshire charge £120/hr dual.)

This is all the more the case at the moment, as the Cap is currently limited to +4.3g dual. This is very limiting for basic training.

Whatever you do, I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun!
:)

[Miserlou]

Shortstripper,
Whereas I agree totally with you regarding aerobatics being art and the inner development, I stand by my post and I'll tell you why. (And at no extra charge!)

The initial post asks for advice, Cessna, Cap or Pitts. My reply gives a definite opinion and offers a further possibility, Stampe, Slingsby or Tiger Moth, with very experienced instructors.

Re. the Cessna Aerobat. Just take a look at all the other types listed in this thread and you'll notice that they are all types which have aerobatics in their design briefs. The Cessna does not. It is a very ordinary aircraft which has been beefed up a little here and there to be made 'capable' of aerobatics.
Furthermore, which of the other aerobatic aircraft have a yoke? None!
It reminds me of the Russian coach who didn't understand the question when he was asked what power setting he recommended for aerobatics. "Full Power, of course!" he replied, eventually.

That is to say, when I fly IFR I take an instrument equipped aircraft. When I fly aeros, I fly an aerobatic aircraft.

From what I understand of your post, you are yourself guilty of the beefing up of the Pitts reputation. It is neither as difficult to take off and land as is made out or as easy to fly accurate aerobatics in.

[LowNSlow]

Brooklands I think you'll find that the 152 US built Aerobats have LESS power than the Reims built 150 Aerobats cos they had the 130hp O-240 engine in them. However, I think there are one or two US built 150 Aerobats around with the 100hp O-200 though.

The only aeros I've flown have been in an Aerobat and I thought it was loads of fun. Also nice to be doing it in an aircraft that I was already familiar with. The 130hp engine was a real bonus in the climb.

[shortstripper]

Miserlou ...

Fair comment. As you'll see from my following post I did find my own post a bit OTT on reading it later and apologised.

I'm quite aware that the C150 wasn't designed as an aerobatic mount and that a Pitt's isn't as difficult to land as some suggest. My objection was more to the idea that aero's could be treated as just a quick add on (re ... the rest of a flight being the dull bit ). I also think that initially learning aero's is more about learning to fly accurately, managing power and acclimatising to unusual attitudes. This can be done equally well in a C150 as a CAP or Pitt's, but at a fraction of the price. Indeed, I started by self learning fairly gentle aero's in a glider. I'm not a greatly experienced aerobatic pilot but found that this humble introduction made simple powered aero's in a homebuilt Tempete a fairly simple transition ... well maybe not! but you'll know kinda what I mean.

I'm sure whatever aeroplane walkabout decides to use he/she'll have fun ... however, at C150 prices more practice initially will be affordable. He/she could then do more advanced stuff in a CAP or Pitt's later.

IM

[walkabout]

Well I have checked out Wycombe, at least their prices, and for £141/hr I get to do a 'gentle introduction to aerobatics' in a Cessna 152 Aerobat..........not the bargain basement price I suspect some of you had in mind, but that's London/M25 prices for you - I suppose I've just become immune to them and the MEP rating helps with that as well! The alternatives are £185/hr in a CAP10 or £201/hr in a Pitts with Alan Cassidy. As I've said, because of work/home committments, all other locations are non-starters.

Although the rationale for starting in the Aerobat doesn't change, given the quality of the instructor in the Pitts, and the relative prices per hour (152's only 30% cheaper than the Pitts), isn't the Pitts beginning to look like the most attractive relative option? I realise I'm starting to talk myself into this, so please feel free to tell me otherwise!

Evo/AerBabe/Miserlou - have you experienced any stress issues with the CAP10 as mentioned by AF whilst under training?

Thanks again all.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

£141 !!!:eek: :eek: :ooh:
have you experienced any stress issues with the CAP10 as mentioned by AF whilst under training?
The +4.3g limit applies since September 24th, when an AD was issued on the Cap 10B. The G limits which were +6/-4.5 were reduced to +5/-3.5 when flown solo, and +4.3/-3.5 dual. These limits must be placarded, and if they are exceeded the aircraft must be grounded, and the manufacturer and CAA informed.

Here's a link to the french language AD. (http://www.france-voltige.org/Docs/cn_240903.pdf)

Stick forces in the Cap are quite light, and +4.3g is easy to exceed.

[walkabout]

AF,

I know, I nearly fell off my chair at that as well and thanks for the detail on the CAP.

Shall I assume that as you didn't try to talk me out of it, the Pitts isn't such a bad idea?

W

[shortstripper]

Considering the prices and who will teach you in the Pitt's .... no contest! go for it ... the price has just about the same gulp:ooh: factor as the aerobatics themselves though!

IM

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Shall I assume that as you didn't try to talk me out of it, the Pitts isn't such a bad idea?
Well, it has its advantages and disadvantages.

You'll need to learn to taxi, takeoff and land. If you haven't flown a taildragger before, this will take a bit of time, and the Pitts isn't the best taildragger for learning on. It takes off very quickly, and it's hard to feel what's happening. It has powerful controls, so you can overcontrol it if you're not careful. And it has poor visibility (although from the back seat of an S2 it's not too bad). Having said that, it was the first tailwheel type I flew apart from some low powered motor gliders, and after a few horrendous takeoffs and landings where I lived only thanks to the instructor's quick reactions, it wasn't too bad. You should expect to spend quite a few hours in the circuit if you want to solo it.

The next downside is that it isn't a terribly good classroom. The instructor is in front of you (probably behind you actually for the first few flights), and it's a noisy, cold, drafty aeroplane. Alan Cassidy's S2A has a canopy over both front and back cockpits, so it may not be quite as cold and windy as the one I flew.

When it comes to aeros, some manouvers are easy (rolls), others are quite hard to get right. The Pitts will bite you when some other aeroplanes won't. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.... As an example, you can do a nice entry into an inverted spin from a botched stall turn, and I went through a phase of doing uninentional inverted flicks when rolling off the top of a loop. :O

Like any aerobatic aeroplane, you need to fly with finesse to get the best out of it. However, some low-powered slow-rolling types need finesse to get anything out of them at all, and that's a good way to learn.

The Pitts has the advantage that you can let things go a bit wrong safely. You can also do inverted spins in it, which isn't the case with most aircraft used for aeros training in the UK.

In conclusion, I'd say that it wouldn't be the aeroplane that I'd recommend for initial aerobatics training, but given the choice between a Cessna at £141, a Cap at £185 and a Pitts at £200, I'd probably go for the Pitts at the moment. If the Cap was given its +6g limit back, I'd go for that instead.

But you should consider moving somewhere cheaper!

Regardless of all that, though, I think that anyone who gets the opportunity to fly a Pitts should take it. One of the most satisfying things I've ever done was my first perfect landing in a Pitts.:) (Needless to say, it got me back later.... :( )

[stiknruda]

One of the most satisfying things I've ever done was my first perfect landing in a Pitts.

I have over 200hrs in Pitts aircraft and reckon that I have less than 20 perfect landings!


Good instruction in s2A's is available in the US and currently costs about $280/hr with an ER of 1.6 that works out at £175 - not a whole lot cheaper than flying with David, sorry Alan ......Cassidy




Stik

[Aerobatic Flyer]

One of the most satisfying things I've ever done was my first perfect landing in a Pitts
Actually, thinking hard and critically about it, I'm not sure that the word "first" isn't surplus to requirements in the above sentence... :O :(

[walkabout]

AF, thanks for that very clear picture. Your point about the classroom makes it clear for me in any case, that the right route is the 152 until I've got some idea of what I'm doing, and then move on to the Pitts.

I know it took me a while but thanks to everyone for helping me get there!

Stik, thanks for the reminder. You know that I'm sure now to call him David when I meet him.........the inevitability of it is quite scary!

[DB6]

walkabout, ask yourself this - who would you like to be taught aerobatics by? The British Aerobatic champion? The chap who has just written one of THE definitive texts on competition aerobatics? Give Alan (not David!) Cassidy a call - you will learn a LOT :ok: .

[Miserlou]

Shortstripper.

I knew we were really of the same mind.

And I've nothing against aerobatting a Cessna if there is nothing else available. But in Walkabout's case there is and I think it would be a good to fly the Cap and then the Pitts, especially in view of the prices quoted.

My first aeros were also in a glider and I'm a firm believer in progression, changing your equipment as you go. You know how it is, anyone with the cash can go and buy an Extra or suchlike and, if they throw enough money at it, get quite good. But they miss out on so much along the way!

Anyway, happy landings.

[stiknruda]

DB6

Give Alan (not David!) Cassidy a call - you will learn a LOT .


We both know and respect him but neither of us has actualy told Walkabout just how SCAREY he can be:D

I've also had some pretty harsh judging by him, too!

I've never flown with him but have had some excellent gound critique from David aka The Master.

edited to add - AC reads Pprune, DB6, so I guess by now he has worked out who we are! You'll be okay but I'm deeper in the dwang!

Stik

[paulo]

Not sure if this has been said before, but make sure you can rent the type you are training on. Ideally this will be renting from the same people that did the training.

There are places doing dual on Robins for not much above a hundred quid, if you are happy to drive a 90mins or so from London.

Otherwise there is indeed the S2A at WW. I've had the privelege of being slapped on the back of the helmet by Alan... he's a demanding but friendly instructor and has a truly deeper understanding of aeros than anyone else I've met. If you don't fly with him, then definitely buy his book.

[foxmoth]

Whilst the G limitation on the CAP is annoying I would be surprised if you reach that limit learning the basics, even with the Caps light stick force, and whilst, as has been said, the Cap can be a bit too easy for learning the basics (Pitts even more so) i think I would find that prefferable to the Cessna with its yoke.

[eharding]

Walkabout

Just got back from my 4th session in the Cap10b at Waltham - having completely forgotten everything from sessions 1->3 to start with, but still a lovely day for it.

I have to confess I find the Cap10 very challenging - I've got 70 hours total, almost all of it on Warriors, the rest being 172s and the Cap - I find even maintaining the straight and level a struggle in the Cap right now; I'm in half a mind as to whether I would be better off in an Aerobat, but since there aren't any at WW (and the place is 10 minutes down the road) it's not an option. On the plus side, the full-and-frank feedback I'm getting from the aerobatics instruction is making me much more aware of the way I'm flying the club PA28s as I pootle around trying to log more solo hours; the club are keen I should get checked out a PA28-180 Cherokee, since a) it frees up a Warrior for training that I would otherwise have booked and b) it's (apparently) a bit more nimble, which might help (a bit) with my Cap10 handling. I'm also keen to get additional tail-dragger experience in something a little more benign - hence some time in the Cub; but don't take my word for it - definately book some time in the Cap10 as well as the Aerobat or the Pitts before you make up your mind, and above all - have fun!

regards,

Ed

[DB6]

Stik, I was going to say something about Death Valley Sense of Humour (i.e. drrrrry) but thought the better of it.
I flew with Alan several years back and loved it, but felt slightly intimidated by the amout of stuff I did NOT know about aerodynamics. I too learnt loads from just one ground critique session at Sherburn. Never occurred to me that an aircraft with differential ailerons will suffer loads of adverse yaw when rolling from the inverted :8 .