Has Lille given up completely?

[2Donkeys]

For quite a few weeks now, Lille Approach (120.27) has been NOTAMed as no longer providing Flight Information for VFR traffic that is not heading into Lille Lesquin (LFQQ) airport. This most directly affects the Le Touquet and Calais crowd who no longer have anybody to talk to before getting within range of the tower controllers at their destinations. Not a huge loss.

Within the last few weeks, Lille's BRIA (Local FIS office), has become sporadic in filing flight plans from local fields such as Le Touquet, Calais, Amiens and others within its sphere of influence. As the smaller fields have lost their direct connection to the network, Flightplan filing has been taken over by regional BRIAs like Lille... except that frequently they do not have adequate staff to cover the role, and significant delays occur in processing flightplans.

Now, arriving into Le Touquet from Lyon on an IFR on Sunday, I experienced another service curtailment. Lille deals with lower level airways traffic in the North-East of France, and as we descended through FL170, Paris handed us off to Lille. Instead of the usual IFR handover, the subsequent exchange included the phrase

"...you try to remain VMC sir because I am not offering a service to VFR traffic..."

His English was worse than the usual low standards at Lille, so that this may have played a part, but we were left with the distinct impression that we were not being offered any kind of service or separation at all, despite still being IFR and in only intermittent VMC. Finally, as we got closer to Le Touquet we cancelled IFR and joined the circuit in the usual way.

Lille is Radar equipped, and the airspace above FL115 is prohibited for VFR flights without a clearance, so that some sort of service should have been possible.

Has Lille just given up? Is this a case of local politics or is there a genuine problem?

[SwanFIS]

2Donkeys

When Lille first NOTAMed this reduction in service we (London Info) understood that it referred only to cross channel traffic inbound LFAT and LFAC. Controller workload and staff shortages were blamed. This reduced service was to continue until a second frequency was introduced this autumn. At that time they said that they still had to provide seperation between IFR / VFR traffic within the Lille TMA.

I believe the NOTAM covering the service reduction has now been extended. Speaking to Lille they are quite openly admiting that they are also unsure of who they should be providing a service to.

Some days they will work inbounds to the Lille TMA other days they will not work TMA transits.

They are happy for you to log on with them for an alerting service and for traffic awareness but further than that I think service provision is dependant on the colour of you socks and state of the Euro.

Not helpful but that is the situation as I see it.

[2Donkeys]

service provision is dependant on the colour of you socks and state of the Euro

That is certainly the way it seems. It has long been the case that lower-level Airways flights leaving the London FIR have often been greeted with apparent surprise by Lille, who then bounce you between frequencies (sometimes back to London) or even to Paris whilst changing your squawk multiple times. I assume that somebody co-ordinates with them when pointing us at TRACA and saying goodbye?

They certainly qualify for some prize, but which one escapes me at the moment.

[SwanFIS]

Yes, as we have no computer link with Lille low level southbound estimates (level- time - squawk) via B3 TRACA are passed by phone to that unit. They usually have the flight details so we assume that all is hunky dory that side of the water. But, obviously not.

[2Donkeys]

Thanks SWANFIS. I assumed that was how it was done. There is obviously a problem of some sort there. It would be nice to know that somebody was on the case, but I fear not.

2D

[foghorn]

Have had similar experiences with Lille when appearing over the FIR boundary IFR but outside controlled airspace.

Lille assumes that all G-reg aircraft appearing over the boundary IFR are IMC holders on 'Z' flight plans who are going VFR once in French Airspace. They seem to get confused when IR holders turn up on 'I' flight plans wanting to go IFR all the way.

'Maintain VMC report the field in sight'

'I'm IFR'

'You're in French Airspace now, VFR only, maintain VMC report the field in sight, sir'

'Roger and I'm in IMC under IFR, and equipped and rated to do so, sir'

They've done this to me a couple of times.

[2Donkeys]

Lille assumes that all G-reg aircraft appearing over the boundary IFR are IMC holders on 'Z' flight plans who are going VFR once in French Airspace. They seem to get confused when IR holders turn up on 'I' flight plans wanting to go IFR all the way.

I think that this is slightly different. France, like most countries, has no real concept of IFR outside the system. Any French flight going IFR into Le Touquet or similar will be part of the Eurocontrol system and will have arrived off an airways routing under the care of Paris Control or Lille (as above).

If you just "appear" in the French FIR claiming to be IFR and having not been under the care of London Control, then you will cause confusion. The recommended approach if you intend to do this is to call London Information and to ask them to co-ordinate an IFR clearance for you from the FIR boundary. They will liaise with France, obtain your IFR clearance and give you a squawk and a frequency for the appropriate agency. At the appropriate time you will call them and your transition will be complete.

Being slightly pedantic, you are committing an offence if you operate IFR in French airspace without a specific clearance, and by simply arriving in LFFF from EGTT without co-ordinating, you don't have a clearance. Simply putting "I" in the FPL and filing a leg to LT does not give you that clearance either.

2D

[foghorn]

Thanks 2D,

Ignore my loose turn of phrase in using the word 'appeared', on both occasions what actually happened was that I was handed over to Lille by London Inf, (can't remember whether it was with a squawk or not). I didn't think this out of the ordinary since it's more than you usually get crossing the boundary VFR these days.

On both occasions after much head scratching by Lille and some negotiation they worked out what was happening and I obtained the proper clearance to the LT. So if there was any illegality it was only from the FIR boundary to Lille issuing the magic words 'you are cleared to the LT' words, if indeed I wasn't cleared by Lonodn Inf's handover.

Taking your recommendation I guess I need to be a bit clearer with London Information in future to save confusion. Belt and Braces.

cheers!
foggy.

[2Donkeys]

I would guess that you were perhaps not handed over as such. Rather London Info did its usual thing of suggesting that you Freecall Lille Information when you report mid-channel. They did this for VFR flights before the NOTAM too. This was not the same as negotiating for an IFR clearance.

I don't really know how much understanding London Information has of the fundamental differences between IFR flight in UK airspace, and IFR in France (or elsewhere in Europe). SWANFIS?

2D

[foghorn]

Always learning in this game - thanks 2D :ok:

[SwanFIS]

2D

The "unit procedures" for contacting / freecalling / joining other FIRs is tailored to each countries requirements and needs with regard to their particular airspace classification.

If we stick with Lille you are correct to say that London Info do not coordinate your flight in to Lille airspace. It is a frecall to 120.27 on crossing the UK coast. This was requested by Lille some time ago because they were getting planes too late to sort out against their TMA traffic.

As far as IFR clearances are concerned I have not tried to obtain one as there has, until now, seemed to be no need as an early freecall to them was all that was required and "seemed to do the job". Perhaps we have to change the book..

Staffing and traffic levels permiting I will have a go at an IFR clearance into Lille and feed back the result.

IFR / VFR rules in French airspace, never to old to learn always ready to listen. I am sitting at the bottom of the learning curve ready for clearance. Go for it.

[2Donkeys]

I think it's pretty much all been said.

Flights can only fly IFR in France under a specific clearance. They do not have the concept of flying IFR without a flight plan outside controlled airspace that we have in the UK.

For this reason, I am imagining that the boys in Lille would expect all IFR flights to be co-ordinated through London Control, leaving London Information to pass VFR flights to them in the way you describe.

If the IFR flight concerned was outside controlled airspace in the UK and was therefore not receiving a service from London Control, a specific clearance would normally be required if they are to be treated as an IFR flight in French airspace without confusion.

Either that, or the French need to be educated to the possibilty of an IFR flight appearing in their airspace other than through the London Control handover - and need to respond accordingly. Certainly they don't "get" that concept at the moment, and the reaction in Lille is a function of the experience of the controller on duty. Simple things like ensuring that the inbound flight adjusts to a semicircular flight level (mandatory for IFR flights in France) need to be taken care of, and seem to me to fall down through the cracks at the moment.

A mechanism similar to the one used with VFR->IFR flights into the Dutch FIR would seem to be desirable. The VFR (or off-piste IFR flight) nominates an entry point, a level and an estimate to London, and London obtains a frequency squawk and clearance.

I'd be very happy to correspond directly about this. It has been broken for a long time (leaving aside Lille's current problems), not just because of Lille's misunderstanding of UK IFR, but also our misunderstanding of French IFR procedures.

Drop me a PM if you think it is something that appeals. It would be great to get it fixed, and to spread the word on both sides of the channel.


2D

[SwanFIS]

2D

I will see what contact we have with Lille through our Ops support section.
Have just spoken to the Lille controller on duty this morning but will do some homework before I reply to your last post.

[2Donkeys]

Thanks SWANFIS. Very interested to see what you come up with.

2D

[alphaalpha]

SWANFIS:

It's not just 2D who is interested in this thread. There's a lot of UK IFR pilots who have had similar questions in their minds. Look forward to further input.

AA.

[SwanFIS]

I spoke to the Lille controller yesterday and the idea of IFR traffic coming from class G airspace and looking for an IFR clearance into / across the TMA was met with total incomprehension. He did however understand the concept of Z flight plans.

2D you look as if you were correct when you said that our two units do not totally understand each others IFR / VFR rules. I certainly am not happy with my understanding of them.

I am going to write to the Lille ops section and try to get a dialogue going in the hope that at the very least there will be better understanding amongst us all of the procedures and problems that have been mentioned here.

alphaalpha I agree and will post results (or lack of them) on this forum.

2D I hope to get a pm to you tomorrow.

[Keef]

This may be apocryphal...

The first time I saw the NOTAM about "no service by Lille App to VFR flights", I asked what was happening when I got to LFAC.

The tower controller at Calais said he understood Lille had been "given" some sectors of what had been Paris Control, but without added controllers or equipment. They therefore didn't have the capacity to handle VFR any more...

Maybe those Paris Controllers are seconded to other duties - like watching traffic contravening the rash of new TRAs round the nuclear power stations?

I just don't bother calling Lille any more when VFR to LFAx. I suppose the next event may be the return of Le Touquet Approach!

'Tis baffling, though. I look forward to hearing the "real" story.


On the rare occasions I've flown IFR in France, I've had clearances direct to places far distant, off airways. I assumed that was "usual", but maybe they treat puddlejumpers differently from real aircraft. But it does seem inconsistent with the confusion at IFR stuff "just turning up".

[alphaalpha]

Anymore input yet, Swanfis? Otherwise just bringing this thread back to the top page.
AA.

[SwanFIS]

alphaalpha

Will post as soon as there is some feedback from Lille.

Check your pms

SWANFIS

[SwanFIS]

foghorn - alphaalpa - keef

I have got a reply back from Lille ATC explaining their problems and specific IFR / VFR rules. At the moment the document format has got the better of me and am not able to edit and post it in reasonable format. If you would like a copy send me your e-mail address and I will send to you. That also goes for any other pilots that are interested.

It is an interesting letter and shows the frustration that Lille feels with those of us in the flying and ATC communities that are not fully aware of procedures in the Lille TMA. They have proved to be very helpful and I will try to follow up any particular concerns people might have.

The two main points are -

IFR - Class E airspace - clearance to enter mandatory.
Seperation IFR and IFR traffic (IFR and VFR if practical). This requirement is for IFR inbounds to LFAC and LFAT as well as TMA transits below FL115.

VFR - FIS if practical (it is not practical and is not provided)
VFR traffic to call LFAC, LFAT, or Paris information for flight information service. Keep a look out and avoid others.

The second frequency will not be available until the end of 2004 at the earliest due staff shortages.

I will do my best to format the letter for posting. In the meantime I will now try and get procedures written / changed to ease at least some of the problems mentioned.

2D has given me some useful feedback - always ready for more.

SWANFIS

[SwanFIS]

This is the main thrust of the letter. Hope the edit is ok -----

The different points you make are very important indeed, and causing a lot
of problems to the controllers on each side of the channel.

first point: IFR traffic can fly in class G airspace in France. They do
not need IFR clearance but must file a flight plan and comply with it (
mainly for SAR purpose ) Radio contact with Flight Information Service is
not mandatory ( though recommended ).
Prior to crossing any controlled area (AWY or TMA ) they must contact an
ATC service to receive a clearance. I think that is similar for France
and UK.

second point: in case of I or Y flight plan we are happy with giving an
IFR clearance within controlled airspace, and FIS in class G airspace. If
London FIR pass an estimate on IFR traffic, we will ask them to advise the
aircraft to join french controlled airspace ( in fact Lille TMA 6 and 7)
at a compatible altitude in regard with other IFR traffic flying in these
TMAs ( this altitude or FL beeing given by the french controller as an
answer to London FIR ) and to call Lille-W 120.27 as early as possible. In
this case the compliance with the semi circular rule is not necessary as
an altitude has been agreed upon before entering controlled airspace. If
the IFR traffic is not entering controlled airspace a correct semi
circular level should be maintained and the FIS will be provided to this
aircraft. Any way, we definitely need a phone call from London FIR for any
IFR traffic bound to LFAT or LFAC and/or traffic transitting in the
associated TMAs ( Lille 6 and 7 ).

A few words about TMA6 (associated with LFAC ) and TMA7 (associated with
LFAT) : both are controlled airspace class E. IFR traffic must receive a
clearance to join these TMAs but VFR traffic can fly through them without
any notice or radio call. They just have to maintain controlled airspace
visual conditions and are responsible for their own separation with VFR
and IFR traffic.

About the AWYs in Lille W sector : the floor is FL65 and the AWY airspace is
class E up to FL 115 included ( above FL115 the airspace is class D and
belongs to Paris ACC ). Any IFR traffic flying below the awy floor is
right to do so if the pilot wishes and will be given FIS by contract with
the flight plan if the pilot decides to remain on FIS frequency. But
before entering controlled airspace he will have to request a clearance on
FIS frequency and the controller will coordinate his flight with the relevant ATC with , if necessary , a change to the control frequency .

About the absolute necessity of coordination of IFR traffic from London
FIR to Lille-W 120.27 :
It happened many times that an IFR aircraft coming from UK ( without any
notice at all ) called Lille-W at 2000'at the very moment it entered the
TMA6 (above LFAC) heading to MK with an other IFR aircraft departing LFAC
or starting the ILS procedure for the approach, leaving pretty short time
for the controller to overcome his surprise and to order an avoiding
action to one or the other aircraft . It is a nearmiss situation that can
be avoided by a beforehand coordination between London FIR or the
departing airport ( EGMD,EGMH, EGMC...) and Lille-W sector. Same nasty
situations have been encountered with IFR and VFR traffic coming from DVR
straight on to LFAT,established on the LLZ at 2000' or 3000', calling Lille when
reaching the limit of TMA7 which is located at mid distance between Lydd
and Le Touquet while an IFR traffic was performing the procedure turn...

third point : the NOTAM about the disruption of FIS in Lille.
The shortage of staff and the pressure of trade unions obliged us to stop providing the FIS for VFR traffic during last summer. VFR traffic from the UK bound to LFAT or LFAC or transitting through their CTRs (ground /1500')should be invited to contact these airports on their TWR frequencies. VFR aircraft flying through Lille TMAs 6 and 7 (class E airspace) and in class G airspace will not receive FIS even in presence of IFR traffic (the crews beeing responsible for their visual separation with any other traffic).

Regarding the remark made by one of my colleagues : he is right to request VFR traffic on his frequency , provided he is working in class D airspace (which is the case of TMAs 1,2,3,5,8 associated with LFQQ airport). In the exemple of TMAs 6 and 7, he is wrong because the airspace is class E and VFR traffic is not compelled to a radio contact with ATC ( according to rules in class E airspace).

New frequency in Lille ATC :
Lille APP is now equipped with a new frequency 134.825 dedicated for Lille Information.120.27 becomes a strictly IFR frequency to work for ATC in the different TMAs in Lille W sector(TMAs 4,5,6 and 7).
This new frequency is officially declared " operational "starting from 27 NOV 2003 ( ref. AIP France 27/11/03). But as soon as it is operational , it will not be used due to shortage of staff and a NOTAM will be issued on time ( french logic, let's leave it at that !)
As a result 120.27 will be the only frequency monitored by Lille W that you will continue to send your IFR traffic on. Nobody will be expected to answer on frequency 134.82 until ,at least , the end of 2004, the time for young controllers to be qualified in sufficient number.

I thank you very much to sympathise with us regarding all the difficulties we are currently encountering. I think the main point on which your help will be much apreciated is the coordination of low altitude IFR traffic to Lille W.
All the other problems are internal to french CAA, Lille ATC and, of course, the trade unions ( nothing simple!).

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks so much for keeping us informed SWANFIS, much appreciated.


Andy

[Aussie Andy]

SWANFIS: given the above, what frequency will you from now on be suggesting VFR traffic switch to mid-channel if enroute to some destination in France (not LFAC / LFAT), such as say Reims for example, which entails flying into the Lille Class E. It sounds from the above that you will just say "freecall enroute", or maybe Paris Information?

Given that there is no-one that wants to hear from us, we can of course just continue on our way. But I was under the impression - perhaps mistaken? - that on entering an adjacent FIR (and in this case also crossing an adjacent international State boundary) it was necessary to let them know that you were doing so. Having said that, I can't think of any relevant regulation that says so...

Cheers, and thanks again for your work in harmonising international relations! :D

Andy

[2Donkeys]

Aussie Andy

The official line is that 120.27 (Lille) is no longer available to provide FIS to VFR traffic. This is NOTAMed. In that event, once you are sufficiently close, you contact Le Touquet or Calais Tower.

In the case of Le Touquet, the Le Touquet TMA protrudes into the UK FIR in any case.

The bigger issue relates to IFR traffic arriving in France other than on an airways clearance, of which more anon.


2D

[SwanFIS]

Ausie Andy

The guide lines from Lille suggest that a FIS in that part of French airspace can be provided by LFAT, LFAC and Paris Information.

You obviously will not get comprehensive traffic information but I dont know if they provide that before. In any case FIS traffic info is a very innacurate art whoever provides it. As they say it is class E airspace keep a look out and assume in that busy airspace that you are not alone. With that in mind, although it was not in Andres letter I know that they are happy for you to log on for an alerting service / listening watch on 120.7 so that you can at least be aware of the English speaking a/c intentions. The billingual 2D will have the edge here!

As 2D says the IFR procedures have to be sorted out and progress is being made there but officialdom can move slowly. Are there any ATC peeps from Manston or LYD reading this. It would be interesting to hear your views as your units will have to agree with any new procedures that Swanwick proposes?

Waiting for another letter from Lille on proposed procedures - will post on receiving.

Could I stress that at this stage the views I express are my own and not in any way an official statement from NATS. Concerned employee not spokesman. End of health warning

SWANFIS

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks SwanFIS: I wasn't worried about getting traffic information, and no we didn't get much of that before anyway..! So I still need to find out if I am required to make contact with FIS when crossing the State boundary. Presuming not, then I think my choice (if not passing close by LFAC / LFAT) will be to maintain listening watch on 120.27.

Thanks - you really are a star: I think this degree of dialogue between pilots / UK ATC / FR ATC is fabulous.

I shall end with a prayer of thanks: "Our Danny, who art in PPRuNe, thank you for this system...!"

etc.:=

P.S. Just saw your PM, thanks...


Andy

[2Donkeys]

There is a typo there in SWANFIS' message. That frequency is 120.27 (Lille Info). Not 120.7.

On your other point, as far as the French are concerned, there is no legal requirement for you to make contact with a French station as you cross the FIR boundary - providing you will be remaining clear of controlled airspace. However, should you elect not to talk to anybody, you are required to monitor 121.5. This regulation came in post 9/11 and is to protect you from the obvious side-effects of an interception.


2D

[skydriller]

Aussi Andy, 2Donkeys,

Read your posts with interest. I hope this is not a trend in general in France, as I must add that my experience of talking to ATC with class E airspace in the south-west is that they would prefer it if you gave them a call, and are more than helpful every time you do. I think this is because a lot of French pilots don’t call them as they don’t technically have to if they are VFR passing through - my experience of flying with the locals at my club is that they avoid ATC & any controlled airspace whenever possible!!

As regards international boundary requirements in France, my copy of VFR Flight rules France says the following under section 1.2.Radio Contact:

‘When pilots enter or leave French Airspace, they must contact a French ATC unit. If it is impossible to establish first contact with the Flight Information Center or Flight Information Sector concerned, they may preferably contact the border aerodromes concerned;
LFKJ, LFSB, LFKB, LFBZ, LFAC, LFLB, LFQQ, LFMN, LFMP, LFST. (aerodrome names mentioned too)
The mandatory report message shall include information;
-Aircraft registration,
-Aerodrome of departure and destination,
-“Border Crossed” indication,
-Position, altitude, time.
If the pilot cannot make this contact he must contact the police and customs services to have a link with ACC.’

Now for the disclaimer: this is not, I admit, from the latest edition, but one I bought when coming here in 2001, but I would have thought that after 9/11 the rules got stricter….

Regards, SD..

PS I will check the latest edition when I go to the club this weekend.

[Aussie Andy]

skydriler thanks, that is helpful... I have also heard since that another consideration is to make contact once across the water so that any SAR later knows that at least you made it across safely!

Of course, we must deal with the art of the possible though: I have had the experience of flying across the channel direct to Dieppe, arriving around lunchtime, unable to establish reliable comms with Paris Info, and no answer from LFAB Dieppe (lunchtime)... in the end I made contact with Rouen APP (I think). So its can be tough to "do the right thing" on occasion!

But it is clear, in the context of a VFR crossing via the LFAC area from what has been said it seems it would make sense to contact them even if not flying over head, or Cherbourg etc. if unable to contact anyone else.

Thanks!

Andy