Shuttleworth Displays - Feedback Required, Please

[Airbedane]

There's been some good positive feedback in other threads on this years Shuttleworth Displays. We all know that the place is fantastic and the shows are great, etc,et, but what we don't hear is what goes wrong. In another thread Damian B has given his thoughts on local advertising and signing - both unaceptable. Man-on-the-fence has commented on the clashes with Duxford.

What do you think?

Say what you want and criticise as much as you like, but if you do, please be constructive and suggest a solution.

If you don't come to Old Warden, then say why not - we'd like to know that, too.

Over to you........

Airbedane

[BEagle]

1. Please can we have the Mew Gull back!

2. Please can we see the DH 88 fly again soon!

3. Please can we have less appearances by smoke belching flying billboards which try to turn themselves inside out (e.g Extras).

4. But above all, please can we see you back in the air again soon, mate! Hope things are going well!

[Man-on-the-fence]

Off the top of my head, can we please get the Mobile Phone Transmitter moved from the farm on the other side of the runway. A picture of an Historic Aircraft in a wonderful setting ruined by a 20th Century necessity.

Oh and more gingerbread please, it always goes by the time I get there:ok:

There will be more when I have had time to think.

Right I have had a thunk. Please bear in mind this is coming from a stanpoint of little or no knowledge of how to organise an airshow or how much things cost. Its also based on 4 visits in the latter half of the season.


I noticed on Sunday that the "other" catering outlet in the shed didnt open until well after the cafe, thus big queues for coffee at the cafe. When it did open there were queues building up just before the flying. Is a 3rd outlet required?

I could come up with a long list of visiting aircraft, however most probably wouldn't suit the ambiance, however it would be nice to see an Anson formation and what chance the other Maggie coming down from Yorkshire? It would be nice as well to see some Duxford based aircraft at OW instead of the other way around. Finally,the Blackburn B2 would fit in nicely. Oh and what about a Hunter (just once) I can see a theme coming SE5a, Pup, Triplane, Spit, Hurri, Hunter. All single seat british fighters. I quick word with BAE to get the Typhoon and bobs your uncle.

I for one dont have a problem with Denny, as long as his appearance fits into the Barnstorming theme of an event. And as you say the punters love him.

As I understand it SVAS membership doesn't grant any discounts towards the other attractions at OW, Mrs Fence may be tempted to join if it gave her a discount of entry to the Falconry centre as well.

Advertising has already been mentioned, but for those who dont want to join the SVAS what about a loyalty scheme? Say attend 3 events get the 4 one free/half price or discount in the shop.

I cant think of anything else. The two key words here are Aerial and Gingerbread :E

[Zlin526]

A,

Here's my 2p worth.

1. Change the dates so it doesn't clash with Duxford events - You'll get more Cambridge locals visiting, and you may be able to swap aircraft with the IWM/TFC/OFMC/ARCO etc!

2. I agree with Beags. The Extra doesnt really fit, just as it wouldn't fit in at the RAF Musuem etc etc. Leave the high performance aircraft for a dedicated 'High Performance' event? The Yakovlevs are OK though, more relaxed aerobatics. Most people who go to Old Warden want to see old aeroplanes, not Carbon Fibre advertising hoardings.

3. Get a decent full time commentator. Jeremy Spake was awful!!! He kept ranting on & on about the Lysander. Can we expect Dale Winton for the 2004 season?

4. There are lots of other aircraft out there to choose from - The Real Aeroplane Company's Aeronca C3 & Ryan, Vic Norman's Curtiss Jenny, The Tiger Club Turbulent Team etc etc...Probably even a Zlin 526 if you look hard enough. All good entertaining flying.

Other than that, its an excellent day out. Well done to you and the guys (and girls) who make it happen, and to MOTF and Damien B for recording it on film (or disc?).

"If it aint broke, dont fix it"

zzz

[ozplane]

I belong to a local car club and I drag the members along each year to one of the Evening events. As they are CAR enthusiasts they tend to go for the flying with a "wow" factor which means the exteme aerobatics and the Spitfire. The Boxkite always gets a thumbs-up as well.
I agree with other comments that you need to co-ordinate with Duxford and Little Gransden on show dates. There is a limit to an enthusiasts budget and entrance fees never go down.

[DamienB]

Well there's nothing really broken it has to be said!

However...

1. I say let's have more barnstorming - Chipmunk/Tiger/Extra, whatever. Adds a good bit of fun to the display. It's clearly popular with the crowd - the only overall round of applause I heard at this last show was for Denny for instance. Plus the kids love it - get the kids hooked and they'll be coming with their kids a few years down the line...

2. Harvards, there's piles of em around and they must surely be cheaper to book than warbirds? I've seen some cracking displays from them over the years but you see so little of them these days.

3. For the small jets (and I think the JP and Gnat are a great addition), how about a Vampire? Particularly thinking of a nice shiny silver one to go along with the RAF trainers theme.

4. More toilets - especially at the Proms when we're all knocking back grog!


And from the purely selfish photographer-after-a-perfect-piccy viewpoint:

1. Get a Stuka. And bomb that damn aerial mast with it. Take out the Sandy mast while you're at it!

2. Put the dayglo panels marking the display line flat on the ground rather than facing the crowd.

3. Build a second tower for photogs to stand on. :E

4. Move the speaker poles behind the crowdline.

5. Require each display act to to do a topside pass nice and low so you can get the trees in the background!:E

[treadigraph]

I've no complaints at all from the evening I wen there last year...

Except... No Cider at the bar! As I recall - possbily erroneously! - pints were all lager, but that may have changed. might be something worth looking at, if there are no real ales on, perhaps a well-known Kent Brewer might like to supply the bar with its well known aeroplane themed brand! (And definitely cider for this drunken westcountryman!)

Re Damien's barnstorming suggestion, I've always been partial to Crazy Flying, though I do realise its broken a few aeroplanes over the years! Fortunately not people... But Old Rhinebeck have done it for forty years and, so far as I know, have never bent so much as an axle... In the UK, the name O'Brien pops into my head...!

But keep up the good work, the displays are simply superb: I will be back next year, I promise, and I wil join SVAS.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Move it nearer to where I live:)

Seriously, is ther any reasonably-priced accomodation within staggering distance of OW?

SSD

[DamienB]

Another well kept secret SSD - 30 quid for a room in the Shuttleworth mansion itself!

http://www.shuttleworthcollection.co.uk/conference/accommodation.htm

(Airbedane - that could do with a more prominent link on the website - perhaps an accomodation button on the front page).

[Man-on-the-fence]

Copied from the Flypast forum this post entitled Copy of an Email to Old warden

"I greatly enjoyed the last airshow of the season but unfortunately, the catering provided really does not match the rest of the event. The restaurant is really only designed for non-airshow days and this is only supported by 2 staff in a shed equipped with one hot plate, selling a "choice" of burger (with onions if they have not run out), hot dog or bacon roll.(all over priced for what they are)(nothing for vegetarians)
A venue with the history and class of Old Warden really should be able to do much better and I am sure that you are turning away potential revenue by offering such a poor range and service, can I look forward to something more appealing next season?"

Oh and the loos are becoming an issue as well

[DeepC]

Only two shows this year (Flying Proms included). Absolutely fantastic both times.

I wish there were more Saturday shows as I cannot attend any Sunday shows.

It would be nice to see more visiting types at OW. Duxford returning favours would be nice. Also more old helicopters would add interest. Would be nice if at a couple of shows a year (so as not to destroy the ambience at the rest) the RAF, RN could display a modern Jet to put the older planes into some kind of perspective.

I would suggest that a member of the Shuttleworth team could do a quick tour of the vicinity of the Airfield to gather donations from the countless people who freeload outside the fence. Probably turn up one hundred quid.

An advertising board alongside the A1 might achieve greater visitor numbers. A small sign near the entrance giving a date of next show would be useful as well.

Lastly, I think PPRuNe people should display PPRuNe badges, hats, flags, etc so that location of fellow PPruNers is easier. Perhaps a PPRuNe flag attached to one of the sound poles might act as a point of contact.

DeepC

[DamienB]

Have to admit I bring a picnic (albeit ever weirder combinations of foodstuffs) as the price for a burger is a bit steep especially given the length of the queue.

Little Gransden do quite well with a BBQ manned by loadsa volunteers, prices not too steep either. Thinks... as the Mildenhall show looks like it's never on any more, how about inviting some of the squadrons there to bring along their BBQ gear, burgers, 'wet sauce' etc. You'd probably double the crowd with this alone and the Yanks would probably go crazy about an Olde English venue like OW. Just for the May show perhaps... and if they want to chuck in an MH-53 or F-15, well so be it :ok:

DeepC - perhaps you could hold the bucket for donations while Hairyplane provides the intimidation, famous as he is for freeloader-squashing expeditions? :D

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

DamianB

That's excellent! I shall bike down there next season, perhaps with a mate or two, and enjoy the flying and the facilities:ok:

Ta!

SSD

[Hot Charlie]

I agree with many of the above posts.

My main disappointment in the past few years (other than the Spitfires wingtips - is there an explantion for their growth...) has been the commentary (please tell me that Zlin526 was joking about Jeremy Spake), and OW would benefit from a really decent commentator who know's their stuff, and can throw in the odd random story now and then...

Secondly, the crowd on the end of the runway really does need to be moved on (towards the gate? - there's an extra couple of hundred quid there).

I must also say, although i'm not the worlds' biggest Extra 300 fan, Denny Dobson must keep displaying, he deserves the booking...

Charlie

[Airbedane]

Thanks for the replies so far – only a day on the net and lots of useful comment. Many, many thanks to all who have contributed, do keep it up, please.

Here’s a few thoughts:

Beags:
- Thanks for the kind words, we’re getting there slowly.
- Mew Gull – I’d like it back too – maybe one day.
- Comet – we plan to fly it early in 200. We’ve decided to level the runway first, just in case, and work on that will start at the end of next season, 2004. To help the process, there’ll be no show next October and the September evening show will be a week early. The airfield will then close for the winter.
- Extra’s etc – I get the feeling that you don’t like ‘em…………I can sympathise, but families and kids do and the youngsters are where we need to target to secure the future.

MOTF:
- The aerial - it’s not a mobile phone device, but it will be removed soon.
- Food and Booze – I’ll pass that on
- Display content – I’ll pass that on, too, but bear in mind that we have to buy-in acts with a limited budget and the big jets produce a local area noise problem, RAF aircraft incur a large cost for support personnel. None of the above are insurmountable, but they all go in the equation.
- SVAS - there were other concessions for the SVAS this year, but you are quite right when you say it didn’t include the Falconry. I’ll pass the comment on, but remember that joining benefits the Collection and shouldn’t be done just for the concessions…..
- Loyalty Scheme – good idea, we’ll look into it.

Z526:
- Duxford – in the late 80’s Old Warden shows were held on the last Sunday of the month, so were Duxford’s. We moved to the first Sunday of the month in 1990, I think. So did Duxford.
- Extra – see above
- Commentator – always an emotional subject. Remember that the main job of the Commentator is to control the crowd in the even of need. The rest is a bonus. For every complaint about Jeremy, we’ve had ten of praise. We’ll certainly listen to comments on commentators, but we can’t please everyone.
- Aircraft – see above, comments and suggestions welcome

OzP:
- Duxford – see above

DB:
- Barnstorming – thanks, I’ll pass it on
- Harvard’s – good point, but Harvard’s are expensive as they fly slowly and take a long time to get to their destination.
- Other aircraft – I’ll pass that on
- Toilets – I agree, I’ll pass that on, too
- Mast – see above
- Panels point taken, but they’re airfield boundary markers and must stay if we wish to license the airfield
- Photog tower and top-side pass – If you move back off the crowd line, you’ll get a higher viewpoint, and you’ll see more of the top surface due to the increased range from the target.
- Speakers – again, here to stay, I’m afraid

T’graph:
- Booze – see above
- Crazy flying – Good idea, thanks, I’ll pass that on.

SSD:
- Accom – thanks for the answer DB

MOTF:
- Restaurant – I’ll pass that on.

DC:
- Saturday shows – is five not enough, six including the Proms?
- Visiting acts – see above
- Freeloaders – Hairyplane and the Collection are working on it, you may have noticed there were less this year – it’s becoming a major problem at all airshows. (How about a comment, Hairyplane, as I know you have strong feelings here?)
- Advertising – good point, and we’re working on it.
- PPRuNe rendez-vous – good idea, is anyone out there prepared to organise it? We can also put a call out on the PA if you wish.

DB:
- An American BBQ – “Big Homer Simpson Drool………” We banned BBQ’s some years ago due to the fire risk, but it may be worth a re-look.

HotC:
- Spitfire – the tips were put on when Disney offered us a deal we couldn’t refuse to fly in their Pearl Harbour film. I’ve left ‘em on, with opposition from all the pilot’s, as the aircraft looks better like that for the family audience – it’s more of a classic Spitfire. It was worth keeping it clipped when we were the only one, but as there are so many others on the circuit now, I felt we could leave the tips as is. However, we can remove them for a season or two if that’s what everyone wants – comments please.
- Commentary – see above, but please give me more info, and I’ll pass it on to the commentary team.
- Freeloaders – see above
- Extra – again, see above.


Well, that’s all for now folks. Again, many thanks for the comments, I’ll pass those on to the relevant areas that I’ve noted above, and get back to you with anything further. I hope the other replies have helped,

Airbedane

[Man-on-the-fence]

Airbedane

Thanks for the reply. I quick couple of comments

Aerial - Wonderful thanks.

Display Content - I fully understand, thats why I didnt ask for the whole of TFC to drop in :D Variety is nice but the based arcraft alone make the journey worthwhile.

SVAS - I agree that you shouldnt join for the concessions, however if the concessions mean the difference between dad and the whole family joining then that has to be a good thing.

Thanks for taking the time to ask

[hairyclameater]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Repaint the Gladiator back in RAF markings!!!!!
Its already the basic colour!! (Though thought it was luvverly in camo!)

I'd like to see the Spit with clipped wings again - I am a true believer in Shuttleworth's 100% accuracy in its restorations,and after all, it is a VC!

Theres little to improve in the setting of the place and I don't think an elevated position would improve photography - its unique in having displays tailored to bank past the crowd -superb!
( Be nice to ask thse BBMF to perform a gentle bank around the bend - nothing too strenuous!) Any tower would then restrict other peoples view behind it.

Denny and the like as well as fast jets are all part of aviations rich taperstry which is surely what Shuttleworth's all about - the preservation and celebration of aviation in all its aspects! I recall that a Harrier always looks good here operating off the grass - nice 'n close!

How about some foreign historics ?? The flamant looked great a few years ago and why oh why did the Fury have to go back to Belgium??When I saw that in the hangar the other year I thought YES!!- A Cygnet,Hind,Fury, Hurricane, Hunter and Harrier "Camm" flypast could be arranged
well, at least with the Hind!
The French B17,Noratlas,Noralpha, Paris, a Swiss Hunter or 2, Belgian Viima, Dutch Beaver, Swedish Tunnan & Saab B17, German Bf108/9, Casa 352 etc I know cost is an issue but for variety, cant be beaten.

Talking of variety how about a change in the visitors? i.e. The Avenger & Scout were both at the last 2 shows- nice as they are it does influence visits by people who have "seen it all before", especially if there is a distance to travel.

Otherwise keep up the great work - pleased to hear about the Comet, but still smarting a little over the LVG having to go!!
:ok:

[Peter Barron]

Please don't have Barnstorming and crazy flying at Old Warden.
Its only my personel opinion but to me that's not what Old Warden is about.
Old Warden is a special venue where historic aircraft are displayed beautifully and I think it would start to lose its unique atmosphere if these type of acts were brought in.
I would much rather see something like the Hind fly twice than see barnstorming or crazy flying.

[Mike51]

Airbedane -

As DB said, not a lot broke, really

Catering - could be better (but I usually bring a picnic)

Visiting acts - more variety would be nice, as I go to several shows in a year. Harvard, Yak-11 (mmmmm, nice), Jenny (would LOVE to see that at OW), An-2, Jungmeister, Rapide, Dragonfly, Dragon, 3 Maggies together. Some types in the spirit of OW, which probably wouldn't cost the earth. 'Heavy Metal' warbirds, like we used to see a lot more of 5-10years ago, very nice, but 1) expensive and 2) we can go to Duxford for those.

Spitfire wingtips - I can see the attraction of keeping them on to provide the classic eliptical shape for the casual punter, so no strong feelings on that one.

More advertising - agree strongly (but not too much - don't want OW losing its unique casual atmosphere due to overcrowding!)

Harriers - always used to have them once or twice a year, don't seem to nowadays. Always good for bringing in the visiting familes.

Nice to see some variety in the based aircraft, such as the Po-2 - when is it planned to fly in the UK?

Good news about the mast (yuk) and the Comet (mmmmm)

Shame about the LVG going - just as a matter of interest, what was the reason for Sunday's cancellation? It seemed to be on fine fettle when ground-run before the display.

Keep up the good work!

[Batchy]

Airbedane.


With the loss of the LVG to Hendon has the collection any plans to purchase a WW1 German aircraft. I know the collection would ideally like an original airframe, although availiability and price would be a major problem.

Alternatively would it be possible to have someone like AJD or even the Memorial flight @ Le Bourget in France build a replica around an original engine. I know it all comes down to money, but without the LVG the WW1 scenarios are going to see rather one sided.

I know the replica issue is always an emotional subject, but you do already have the Boxkite and Avro Triplane.

It was a great shame that the Mew and Active left Old Warden, was the price just too high or were they outside the collection's purchasing criteria.

The Lysander was an excellent purchase, a great performer that fits in perfectly with the Hurri-Spit-Glad. I'm not so sure about the plan to collect RAF trainers though. Still too many in private hands.

Has the collection considered Dick Meltons Walrus project that is up for sale.

One last point, would it be possible to have a section in each display programme showing an individual photo of all the pilots, all too often the commentator forgets to mention pilot. They cant all be shy!

[Moondance]

The beauty of OW is the timeless nature of the place, so, any changes really should be subtle.The only OW display I got to this year was September's Pageant (thank you the Met Office for such a hopelessly inaccurate forecast, hope it didn't affect numbers). Overall, it was an excellent display. I only have two comments. Firstly, I found the initial part of the Gladiator's display (fully aerobatic) to be unimpressive - too high, and, frankly, I don't enjoy the Collection's aircraft being flown in such a manner. Secondly, I did not enjoy Frank Chapman's barnstorming display in the Chipmunk. It was one of the few occasions in almost 40 years of airshows that I thought I was about to witness an accident - in my view it consisted of spontaneous, aggressive manoeuvres, too close to the ground - had me looking away expecting the worst on a couple of occasions.

These are quibbles really, as OW still has a magic atmosphere that no UK venue can match. It would be nice if some of the aircraft that weren't flying on the day could be rolled out into the sunshine for photography (eg probably unreasonable to expect the Fury replica to fly, but it would have been fab to have it out on the grass parked between the Gladiator and the Hind).

My main complaint at Shuttleworth has been the sales policy. I regard the disposal of Jean Batten's Gull as a heritage crime. The Mew Gull is arguably the most significant surviving British light aircraft and I sincerely hope that one day the Collection may acquire it.

[spt]

I would echo the sentiments already expressed; an excellent season of flying and generally things are good with perhaps only minor points in need of addressing.

As others have observed, OW is a well kept secret if road signs are relied upon. Good signs would surely boost visitor numbers.

The pre-show commentary, when it happens, is useful and informative, particularly to first time visitors. However, it does not always happen. Why? I would also recommend that it contains a warning about prop wash. I have witnessed a couple of incidents this season where this has caused problems to unprepared visitors.

Aircraft? Well, from a purely personal viewpoint, have the Blenheim back when it flies again. It is/was beautiful and very impressive. I also much enjoyed the Nimrod that displayed during a 2002 show. Another fine example of a Hawker sea-going derivative of a land based fighter, to complement OW’s Sea Hurricane. To continue the Hawker theme, the Harrier always seems to be popular with the crowd and was sadly missing this year; unless one appeared in August when I was on holiday?

And finally, what about a replacement for the LVG? It would probably need to be a reproduction, but as the NAW contributions to OW demonstrate, these can be as good as an original. A Hanover, as per the old Airfix kit, would be just fine thank you, but a totally unrealistic dream I suspect!

[Airbedane]

MOTF - sorry if my comment on concessions appeared a bit rude, you have a good point and I'll pass it on.

Again, thanks to all who have replied, here’s a few answers for day 2:

Gladiator – the Scandinavians sponsored a recover and repaint of the Glad for a film back in the mid 90’s. We always had, and we still have, the intention of repainting it in RAF colours. The problem is engineering time. This winter should see the recovered Tutor back on the line, followed by the Tomtit. Next year we have to re-cover the Pup. In the meantime, the PO2 has to be brought onto the British register, and we have to get the Desoutter, Comper and ANEC on to permits to fly. Add to that the problem of annual permits and winter servicing nearly forty aircraft and you’ll see that the Glad will have to wait a few more years yet to go into Brit colours – on the other hand, you could always sponsor a change in scheme, if you feel that strongly about it……

Spitfire – she came out of the factory with rounded tips, so the present config is authentic. However, I don’t have a problem with changing back to clipped wings, what’s the consensus? Anyone care to start a poll?

BBMF round the Tower – why not ask ‘em.

Other aircraft – I take the point on the Avenger and Scout, and the foreign historics, but as said before, we do have a limited budget. Prices are set to go up again next year, but they’ll still be a lot cheaper than Duxford. Would you be prepared to pay double this years entrance fee, say, for the promise of a more varied show?

Barnstorming – an interesting comment Peter, but the barnstorming has proved to be a very popular addition to our shows. I don’t think we’ve ‘sold’ it to people such as yourself as well as we could, but barnstorming was a major event of the between the wars years and as a significant proportion of our aircraft are from that era, we decided to give it a try. We’re trying to re-create the atmosphere of 30’s acts, such as the Cobham Flying Circus, that were so popular at the time. The CAA were heavily involved in our work up and a risk assessment provided a satisfactory safety analysis. The art of display flying is to make it ‘spectacular, but safe’ and I believe we’ve achieved that in the way we present the Barnstorming.

Catering – OK you’ve made the point!

Harrier – we book it every year, but it’s down to the RAF Participation Committee as to whether it attends or not. Last year, it crashed at a display two days before it was due to attend OW, this year, we couldn’t get a booking. Keep your fingers crossed for next year.

LVG – the cross-wind was too strong last Sunday; the engine run was all we could do as a substitute. We’ve been really fortunate to have had the pleasure of seeing the LVG in the air; lets be thankful for what we’ve had, not sorry for what we’ve lost! She’s going back to her owners after a long loan, a good home in fact, that will ensure her static preservation for the future.

LVG replacement –I’d love to see a replica German WW1 machine in the Collection, but it must have an authentic engine. We already have a replica Sopwith Triplane and Bristol Monoplane, built by the Northern Aeroplane Workshops, a volunteer group who are currently building a Sopwith Camel, again for the Collection. I have the plans for a Fokker Triplane and a Collection colleague has those for a Fokker DVIII – any volunteers to start a ‘Southern Aeroplane Workshop’ to create the enemy? I’m afraid commissioning a replica is out of the question – the cost would be too prohibitive.

Aircraft policy – the current policy, if we ever need to have one, is ‘the First Hundred Years of Flight’. Recent decisions have been made mainly on financial ground in respect of acquisitions and sales – we have to stay solvent. I believe the trainer theme is a good one. It starts with the Boxkite and currently ends with a private owners aircraft, the Bulldog. I know some of the intermediate trainers are not as ‘sexy’ as some would like, but such so-called boring aircraft from early last century form the heart of the Collection now.

Walrus – what a good idea!

Pilots – the philosophy of the Collection is to show the sight and sound of the aircraft in the air, not the pilots. It’s best they remain, for the most part, anonymous. On the other hand, I do believe a Propswing from early this year did show a rather aged group of grey-haired gentlemen……….

Aibedane


(Moondance & SPT- I wrote this before I saw your post, I'll try to reply to it next time, apologies)

[Man-on-the-fence]

Airbedane

No probs, none taken.

Just out of interest how much would it cost to put the Gladiator into RAF Colours?

[BEagle]

When you know what Alex Henshaw achieved in the Mew, it seems almost criminal that it is no longer with the Collection.

There are lots of Spitfires around - and more than one Hurricane. But only one G-AEXF! I was lucky enough to see her fly - and even though I've encountered a Lysander, the DH88 and even a Fokker DR1 in flight, nothing was as brilliant as the Mew....

[Moondance]

One of THE most impressive displays I've seen at OW (about 10 years ago), was the Comet, Mew Gull and Hawk Speed Six in formation, as the opening sequence to the Pageant......Hawk Speed Six, there's another one that really belongs permanently at OW (and thanks for booking it for this year's Pageant)

[Zlin526]

Beagle & Moondance,

Sorry if I appear to be a swot, but the Mew Gull was never owned by the Shuttleworth Collection, but operated by one of their pilots...I suppose they could always pay the present owner to bring it back for a couple of displays.

Zlin

[Moondance]

Fully appreciate that, but I thought that Des Penrose gave Shuttleworth first refusal on the Mew Gull and the Active when he sold them - just a great shame they didn't take up the offer (or more likely couldn't afford them)

[BEagle]

Yes - that's why I said 'no longer with the Collection' rather than ' no longer owned by the Collection'......

Lucky chap, the current owner. And the Mew looks just right in the 'Cape' configuration.

Shall settle down now with a glass of malt and read Alex's 'Flight of the Mew Gull' for the umpteenth time......and keep my fingers crossed that perhaps one day she'll once again come racing round the tower at Old Warden!

[hairyclameater]

Thanks for the prompt reply Airbedane- It is so refreshing to be able to contribute ones thoughts and opinions about air shows and have someone take note!!!!

If a significant hike in price for (say) one show a year means a RAF Gladiator and some tasty,rare visitors, I'm up for that!
spt- Almost forgot about the Nimrods appearance - a worthy OW visitor if ever there was one!! Book again next year please. It gets kinda lost at Duxford.

thanks again for the opportunity to express our feelings- any more airshow organisers out there willing to throw down the gauntlet so to speak ??? (A Gauntlet - yes, if only!!.................)

[Man-on-the-fence]

Theres one in Finland, shame it flies with the wrong engine fitted.:D

[Say again s l o w l y]

Sorry, totally of topic, but Airbedane will you be at Duxford on the 3rd-5th November?

[Airbedane]

SAS,

Duxford on 3 - 5 Nov: I hadn't planned to be there. Why, what's happening?



Dear All,

Again, thanks to all for posting – we appreciate your comment.

Aerobatics – It’s an emotional subject. We try to display the aircraft in the middle of the envelope, showing the sight and sound in the air. However, to do this effectively, some aircraft need to be turned upside down – I remember as a kid being disappointed with any Spitfire display that didn’t victory roll at the end. The Glad is another that benefits from some lazy aeros, but the characteristics of the engine demand a high minimum height. If the height that we display the aircraft detracts that much from what we try to achieve, then we’ll take the aeros off the menu – let me know what you think.

Barnstorming – I’ve put the main view in an above post. We’ve had good feedback and most who have seen it want it to stay. However, we are reviewing the content over the winter, so there may be some changes for next year.

Acquisition and disposal policy – I too was disappointed when I discovered that the Batten Gull had left, and more so when the Mew Gull and Active departed for Breighton. However, acquisitions in recent years have far outweighed disposals – Lysander, Comper Swift, Provost, Chipmunk, Prentice, PO2 – and on the limited budget we have, I don’t think we’ve done too badly.

Photography – it all comes down to manpower and money. On display days we have the manpower to push out ‘x’ aircraft. We’ve increased the number for each display over the past two years. Pushing out a few more for static photography was tried for a few seasons, but the effort involved far outweighed the revenue – after all, we do have to make money to survive, and when the Chief Engineer says: ’NO, NO MORE!’, who am I to argue!

Commentary – At next season’s work-up, I’ll ask the commentators to put in a prop-wash warning and also a pre-show brief.

LVG replacement and airshow content – please see my previous posts.

Speed Six – you can see my comments on Hairyplane’s Mmmmmmmmiles thread – to save you looking, it was a great machine to display at Old Warden and a sad loss when it left. I would like it back as soon as possible.

Cost of repainting the Glad – I’ll ask and let you know, MOTF

If people are really serious that they would be willing to pay more to see more, then let me know.

Keep 'em coming,
Airbedane

[Say again s l o w l y]

There is a course on "safety management of historic aircraft" All the usual crowd will be there OFC, Rod Dean etc. I was just wondering if Shuttleworth were being represented. You guy's do know a bit about it!

I'm going as it forms one module for the M.Sc I'm taking at the moment.

[Moondance]

Airbedane, thanks very much for your comprehensive replies (and thanks very much for asking the question in the first place).
As regards the Gladiator aeros, maybe I'm being a bit over-sensitive after the Firefly tragedy (which I didn't witness) & Hoof Proudfoot's demise (which I did, and will never forget), but I just feel that sort of flying is out of place for Shuttleworth machines. As far as the Chippie barnstorming routine, the ribbon cutting was entertaining enough, but the ribbon pick up really made me feel uneasy, and what is the point? - sitting several rows back in the car park, the actual pick-up is so low as to be invisible.
Routines I have enjoyed in recent years have been the racing senarios (multiples displayed in an interesting & safe form) and the WW1 scenario (with extras in uniform & pyrotechnics - kids loved that one).
Please book the Nimrod again (Sea Hurri, Hind & Nimrod formation......), and how about the pprune/SVAS "Buy the Mew Gull" Fund (that's assuming it is available, which I would doubt)

[Cameraone]

I'm a bit late on this one, but I thought I would stick my twopence worth in!

How about a "Commentator Free Zone"
You could remove some of the tannoys at the far end on the main runway, giving people the option to watch the show without the PA.

Generally the commentators at OW get it just right, keeping quiet as the aircraft pass, but it would be nice to have the option to not hear them.

Also how about flying the Hind at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of every show - I just can't see and hear too much of that beauty.

Apart from that, there is no other airfield around the world ( and I've been to a few!) that I would rather watch an air display at.

[Airbedane]

Don't worry about the late call, Cameraone, the thread will be open for as long as it takes. That goes for anyone else, too, who has a point to make. I don't really care what you say, but whatever it is, I like to hear it....................if we don't know, we can't do anything about it!

Commentator free zone - I agree; personally, I just like to watch and hear, but the commentator is there for a safety reason too and it's important that all present can hear him or her. I asked the commentators this year to not talk as aircraft are flying past - maybe we need to have longer periods of silence on one or two acts. On the other hand, we do get a lot of visitors who need the comentary to understand what's going on - we'll have a think over the winter PLease comment again next year if you have anything to say.

Moondance - I do take the point about the ribbon pick up and we will be reviewing the Barnstorming over the winter. Thanks also for the comments on the scenarios - WW1 and racing, I'm not sure why, but we missed the later out this year.

No more time at the moment, be back later......

Please keep 'em coming in.

A

[ozplane]

Perhaps this is rather a naive question but have you ever checked who actually goes to the Old Warden events. We know the enthusiasts will go to all the shows but what proportion are they? The reason I ask is that having watched airshows since the 50's I find as a Hertfordshire resident that there are too many shows to be able to afford them all i.e. 4 at Duxford, all the Old Warden events, Little Gransden, Woburn and Coventry all being within reach. I therefore select the ones with the "wow" factor and this year that has been Coventry and Duxford for the 747 and the geese! Perhaps some market research might be in order to see who the Old Warden public are and what they want.

[Moondance]

Commentators are always controversial, but over the years, I've always felt the OW commentators to be far superior to the Duxford 'Love the sound of my own voice, laugh a lot at my own jokes' approach. Particulary approved of the bloke at the Pageant this year who had the taste to say a magnificent nothing during the Spitfire display - well done that man.

[Hairyplane]

Hi everybody, Hi Airbedane - just back from a weeks sailing in Turkey (MMMmmm!!)

What an excellent idea of yours Ab to 'ask the punters' via PPrune - a very useful thread so far that will undoubtedly result in improvements.

OW has a huge potential - so few people I speak to have ever heard of the place or indeed have any idea what they are missing.

Freeloaders - Isn't it galling for a Charitable Trust to be ripped off in such a way? I regularly cycle down to 'chat' with them.

The majority line the public footpath and are unaware of the fact that they are trespassing simply by stopping to watch. A footpath is just that. It is provided for A-B access. Stop and you are a trespasser.

We plan to install signs to this effect next season.

Others congregate at the road/ footpath in the vicinity of the 21 threshold. Not the most sensible place to be. Warning signs are simply ripped down. It is a fairly busy road at weekends. Damage to the fence by cars is indicative of the road dangers yet people would rather risk their lives (and those of their families) to save a few bob.

There is a further plan to install a taller fence from the road to the windsock.

We then get to the 'I know my rights' hard core freeloaders who line the road.

These are downright sad, scummy people who are rude, abusive and threatening. I cannot print what has been said to me in the past. However, as an ex-cop, I have been insulted by experts in the past so it doesn't phase me.


THere is of course nothing to stop people standing on the verge of the highway. In the case of the adjoining fields (owned by the Trust but leased I believe) the deliniation between verge and field is impossible to determine.

Tenant cooperation, supported by proper fences and signs, will leave those freeloaders a much narrower strip alongside the highway. Very unpleasant but free all the same.

We can only reduce the problem. We can never eradicate it.

Any input from lawyers here will be appreciated.

HP

[Man-on-the-fence]

Having just endured (on Sunday) a long trip round the M25 on the way home from Duxford where I have paid the best part of 20 quid for the privaledge of seeing a show 50% of which was based aircraft I have had a chance to ponder the tricky subject of pricing.

Duxford (excepting legends) lean heavily upon based aircraft for their shows although the percentage of bought in acts is less than OW, the based aircraft used always seem to be the same ones time and time again (ok I know someone will prove me wrong). At OW the percentage of based aircraft used is higher but the are rotated around so its not all the same at each show.

Airbedane has suggested raising the price of maybe one show per year to get some bought in acts. Nice theory but what if the advertising that has been promised brings the Smith family to OW for the first time, only to find out that the cost is similar to Duxford with a greater atmosphere but less museum to visit (Dux always make a big play on being able to visit the museum for the cost of show entry). My guess I that they would be one time visitors.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no place with the atmosphere and "bang for your buck" as OW. If we are to have a show with more outside acts - and the more I think about it, the more I doubt that the current ratio should be changed much - then I feel it would be better to spread the cost over the whole season or not do it at all.

Its just a hunch!!

HP

Welcome back, hope you both had a wonderful time.

Our Lands and Highways Records people at work (I work of a Local Authority) define the highway boundary (where it is not noted or marked) as being the roadside edge of the highway ditch (if it exists) or the middle of any fence or hedge line. If there is a gap (again if there are no records) then a line parallel to the centreline of the road is drawn between both ends of the gap.

Does that make sense? Is it of any use? Probably not, its late thats my excuse. :)

[DamienB]

HP - surely a well trained ex-police dog can be convinced to leave some dog eggs in strategic spots where the hardcore freeloaders gather? This should make their viewing experience an exciting game of 'avoid the turd', to the soundtrack of 'Oops I've trodden in it again' by **itney Spears.

[Hairyplane]

MOTF - Had a great time thank you (apart from the few million illegals I seem to have imported inside my belly....)

Your information does indeed make sense and aligns with my rather dusty recollections - thanks for that.

DB - Let me tell you a string of funny police dog stories when I see you next, especially the one where I called the duty dog handler out in the middle of the night to a very recent burglary (yes, he did indeed have his police Gannex on over his pidgies!) he walked round to the back of his van, opened the door and said - 'oh bu@@er ....., I've forgotten the dog....'

Burglars 1 - Cops 0

Back to my favourite subject of Old Warden and the subject of this thread! -

Catering. I think anybody will agree that this needs looking at. There' s plenty of evidence that visitors currently are inclined to bring their own scoff. A profit opportunity missed.

I like the idea of a hog roast and...well...any change from sausage rolls and dull sandwiches really.

Cider - yes indeedy! Especially if its from Biddenden, Kent

Shepherd & Neame Spitfire - my favourite real ale from the oldest brewery in England. Kent again. Yes to that too please!

(Both of which give me the foulest of hangovers. ......)

Walrus - (If we cant have a genuine Walrus on the BBQ........!)
Wow - what a show-stopper one of those would be. I wonder what it would cost?

Must dash (for reasons connected with line one above).

HP

[Zlin526]

Anyone else want to advertise their own air display acts on this forum? :confused:

I have a 1965 Ford Cortina for sale if anyone's interested?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Southern Cross]

Zlin 526: As I said, it was only posted at Airbedane's specific request and it is "his" thread, but if you are so upset by it petal then it is removed.

[DamienB]

:rolleyes:

Well speaking for myself I'd rather see a pile of Yaks (picking a name from the air, the Aerostars for instance) than a pair of them. ;)

[cubflyer]

Just come across this thread, thanks for giving us the opportunity to say what we think about Old Warden.
I only manage to get there maybe once a year- too many fly-ins to go to! When I go its usually for an evening display, as I go to Old Warden to see the old aircraft fly, Im not interested in seeing the modern stuff that I can see at any other airshow during the year. What I really want to see is the Edwardian aircraft and the 2s and 30s aircraft flying. I dont want to see Denny Dobson (good display but not what I want at Shuttleworth) I dont really want to see Chipmunks or Prentices either.
I went to the last evening display end Sept. It was great to see the LVG fly, the Hind and some of the other biplanes, a good effort to get the Blackburn monoplane into the air, but it wasnt its day. But with perfect conditions it was disappointing to see only the Boxkite flying of the pioneer aircraft.
I appreciate that we need good conditions to fly these aircraft and some times none can be flown, but this night was perfect, so surely some re-arranging could have been done. Cancell the Provost, cancel the Spitfire and Hurricane (yes they are great but we can see them any time) and get out more of the pioneer aircraft that can only be flown when condition permit. I would say cancel Denny Dobson too, but as youve paid already, you better have him fly. But I presume it costs nothing to cancel one Shuttleworth aircraft and substitute another.
As for the aquisition policy, Id personally rather not see the Prentice, Provost, Chipmunk etc in the collection, Id rather see the money spent on getting the current aircraft airworthy and purchasing really rare significant pre war aircraft. Having private aircraft at the collection is a great idea when it brings in new aircraft that are of interest like the Polikarpov. But Im not sure the same can be said for the SAL Bulldog.
It was nice to see the Staggerwing being displayed this time. Would be nice to see other similar aircraft as one offs, like the Waco from Gransden, or Curtiss Robin that sometime lives outside at Panshanger. Aircraft that dont usually go to other airshows.

I appreciate that this kind of thing might not be what brings in the general public, but it is what me and a number of people I have spoken to would like to see.

good luck!

[DamienB]

cancel the Spitfire

Nah, lost me right there. Clearly insane. :ugh:

Go more than once a year and you'll see the old flimsies fly more!

[Airbedane]

Thanks for posting the PM, SC, but I'm afraid I missed it. If you'll allow me, I'm going to put it back, but slightly amended.

At the beginning of the thread I said post whatever you like, but give a solution (or words to that effect) and that's what you did. It provides an alternate view with a perfectly good suggestion . It deserves to stay!

Again, I'm afraid I'm pressed for time. I'll try to answer the last few posts over the weekend.

A

"Hi SC,

Would you mind posting your PM, I think it would go well on the thread - we may also get some feedback as to how others see your act.......

I'll pass your request to xxxxx, our display consultant, I also suggest you contact her yourself on xxxxx xxxxxx.
All the Best, and thanks for the input.
A

[quote]
Southern Cross wrote on 15th October 2003 16:21:
Hi Airbedane

I have a suggestion, but thought I wouldn't be quite so cheeky as to post it on the general thread....!

Please could you consider inviting the Aerostars back next season instead of the Yakovlevs - 6 aeroplanes vs (now) 2... next year the Yak 50's, of which we have 5, are 30 years old in design - not quite up to the usual standard of beautiful classic aeroplanes that you feature, but getting there!

Also, there is now an original 1938 Swiss built Bucker Jungmann in the UK with its original Hirth engine - the only one of its type in the UK (the rest are Spanish CASA's from the 50's or newbuild Jungmanns). She is flying in original Swiss military colours and sports her original registration "A-12". I don't know if that might be of interest but certainly it is a genuine pre-war trainer and able to display a decent aerobatic sequence as well.

Best of luck for 2004.

Best regards

xxxxxxxxxx

:) "



So what's wrong with that?

[Man-on-the-fence]

Airbedane

Theres nowt wrong wi that. I'm all for it if you can get them.

As for the edwardians, Airbedane knows more than me (on just about every subject) but they need very calm conditions to fly so usually go out lasy of all. What a shame if the wind was too strong and your display of these wonderful old aircraft had to be cancelled.

I can see where you are coming from, however a carefully controlled variety is the spice of life at OW. Now if one could plan the weather when the display season was being mapped out one could have a dedicated Edwardian evening (with costumes and long moustaches) however life isnt that simple.

Now a different Spitfire, maybe the Rolls Royce Griffon engined one, that would be impressive round the bend.

[vintage ATCO]

MOTF, you mean this one?

http://www.stevelevien.com/ow290603/pic8.jpg

Old Warden, 29 June 2003

:D

VA

[Man-on-the-fence]

Yeah but the one I want is in focus :E

[DamienB]

Oooh hark at her

[Hairyplane]

As a private owner at OW - Miles Magister V1075 and Miles Falcon G-AEEG - I am pleased to make my contribution - from displaying my aircraft to remonstrating with the freeloaders(!)

No - I dont get paid anything and yes, I pay hangarage and maintenance (superb quality at excellent rates - plug plug) just like anybody else. Perfectly happy with that.

I believe that as temporary custodians of our nations aviation heritage we should operate our aircraft for the benefit of others as well as ourselves. It is great fun too (especially the balloon 'missing'!)

If you have anything really interesting that might 'fit' the OW scene then there may be room for one or two more aircraft (am I right Ab??)

OW is a magic place and a priviledge indeed to fly there (although a little daunting at times for a hobby pilot rubbing shoulders with the pro's).

If you have something interesting and dont want / dont feel competent enough to display it yourself (pretty much my position in 01) there will be an instant queue of professionals to do it for you.

I can tell you that sitting in a deckchair with a beer (or cider!) in your hand watching your bird being displayed is a great feeling indeed.

My aircraft flew very little in the ten years before my ownership and rarely displayed. Not the case in the last 2 years!

And now - a question for you -

Whilst I would not consider selling the Magister - a great duo with the collections Maggie(?) - what are your views out there on the Falcon?

Would it be missed that much if I sold it? It is a consideration at the moment...

HP

[DamienB]

Well you can't flog it til you've given MOTF and I a go in it :{

And surely you'll want some nice air to airs to remember her by :E

[Peter Barron]

HP.

The Falcon is a lovely aircraft and yes I would miss it.
There is something special about aircraft from this era and the Falcon is one of the best.

Its a Gentlemens Aeronautical Carriage and its a pleasure to see it flying.

Peter.

[Man-on-the-fence]

I for one would miss her very much. Peter has hit the nail on the head, she fits in very well with the atmosphere at OW.

More importantly she is accessable to the public and not shut away in a hanger only to be flown to the odd fly-in. (I really like the folding wings however) unlike some members of the species I could mention.How about a formation with the Speed Six?

I say keep her. Let her grace the skies at as many events a possible. What could you possibly replace her with?



Cheers DB couldnt have put it better :ok:

[Mike51]

Personally, I would be very sad if the Falcon were to depart OW, even more so than the Maggie.

It is a lovely, lovely thing, and fits in really well at OW. A real pleasure to see it fly. After the loss of such as Jean Batten's Gull and the Mew Gull in recent years, it would be a shame to see it go.

Unless, of course, the Shuttleworth Trust were to acquire it for themselves........

And dependant on what it was replaced with, of course!

[Cameraone]

I too would sorely miss the Falcon, we need all the Miles aircraft we can get!

[vintage ATCO]

Thanks MOTF, but it's not bad for a Box Brownie.


Hairy

Would miss the Falcon very much if it were to leave. Seems ideal for OW.


VA

[Man-on-the-fence]

Vintage ATCO


Cheers mate. When did she last display at OW then?

[Airbedane]

MOTF - if you're asking about the R-R SPit, it was at the RAe do in June.

Now, back to the thread and apologies for the delay in replying.

I'd like to reiterate what I said at the beginning:


posted 7th October 2003 06:32

.......Say what you want and criticise as much as you like, but if you do, please be constructive and suggest a solution.......

So if you want to give me the name of alternate acts, then please do.....nuff said?


Duxford 3-5 Nov - since your post, I had a chat with Rod Dean. He said it was a City University event at Duxord, but I must admit, the post was the first I heard about it. Rod will be using some Shuttleworth info to illustrate his talk, but I find it rather sad that the organisers didn't contact us, either to take part, or to listen - or at least, I wasn't contacted.

Do we know who goes to Old Warden - we did a visitor sure in the mid 90's, so we had a rough idea then; maybe we need another one. Sufice to say that at that time, most of our visitors travelled over 90 mins to get there and a high percentage were first timers or only once per year attendees.

HP - thanks for the post on the freeloaders - we have to do something about it - there's a safety issue as well as a financial one.

Changing aircraft during a display - it's not as easy as you think. We plan the types for each show in advance, prepare them, pull 'em out, service 'em, fly 'em, then put 'em back. It all takes time. Aircraft cannot be generated on the day without signiicant engineering time being spent, time that is needed on the line to run the show. There would also be the inonvenience to the traders that block the hangar entrances on display days. Finally, it's not worth preparing aicraft as spares just in case - too much enginering time lost. We aim to fly all we prepare and we prepare all we need for a show.

We plan at least two Edwardian aircraft for each show, more if the weather forecast is good. If wind or rain is forecast, there's no point in planning all of them - again, too much time would be lost to aircraft that have a high probabliiy of not flying.

Canel the Spitfire - you have to be joking! Whatever your taste, it's a great crowd puller and the icing on the cake after the Edwardians have flown.

Acquisition policy - we will ontinue to acquire airaft suh as the CHipmunk, Prentice etc. In a hundred years, ours may be the only examples of the type in existance, as well as the only example flying. We can't be emotional about it now, we must look to preservation for the future. After all, if our predecessors had not done the same, we wouldn't have an Elf, Wren, Tomtit, Tutor etc, etc. The SAL Bulldog is also an important addition. Again, in a hundred years, it might be the only one around!

A final thanks to all for keeping this thread alive. I found it very useful, both as a collector of information and a way to educate on the philosophy of the Collection. I must admit, some of the posts do indicate that we haven't got our maketing right just yet.

Keep 'em coming!

A

[airgage]

What ever you do don't change to much, maybe the odd catering technique but that is it.

I have amazing video of a yellow gnat (intrepid?), magic, 2 pitts and an exta, amazing, a boxkite, unique, pink spitfire , odd, etc. All are interwoven with a fantastic backdrop and (from the time ) interesting commentary, John Blake.

Make of that what you will.........

[Grandad Biggles]

Take it from me ALL comments are being taken very seriously.
Please keep your thoughts and ideas coming ALL

[BeauMan]

I've just spent the best part of the last half hour reading through this thread, can't quite believe I've missed it. Some fabulous responses there, and a hearty round of applause to Airbedane for asking for, and most importantly listening to, the views of his customers. What a breath of fresh air! :ok:

Unfortunately I've not got a lot to add, as I've not visited Old Warden for may years. I did promise myself that I would do so at some point this summer, but it always seemed to pass me by. Perhaps that might indicate that local advertising (I'm only thirty miles up the road) hasn't been as extensive as maybe it could have been?

There have also been a couple of shows which did seem to clash with others in the area (Duxford / Little Gransden). Or maybe it's more cost effective for you to display your aircraft at OW and Duxford on the same day as opposed to seperate days?

On the Spitfire wingtip question, I've always had a particular soft spot for AR501 since I first saw her with the clipped wings, so my personal preference would be for the tips to come off. Although of course, if the cost involved would have a negative impact on the rest of the collection, I'd rather the money were used on something more important than wingtip aesthetics.

Just my 2p's worth. I really do promise I will visit soon.

[Mrs_DamienB]

On one of my first visits to OW, there was a lovely little scenario performed where the Lysander picked up an agent from "France" (AKA the middle of the runway). This year I also enjoyed the participation of the "Dad's Army" group.

Is there any scope for having more of this kind of thing? I'm sure that many of your aircraft have stories to tell.

IMHO, Old Warden has some of the best shows around! I love the variety of aircraft and I believe that there is certainly room for everything from the Edwardians to Denny Dobson! Keep up the good work.

Good luck with the freeloaders too! :D

[Peter Barron]

Can we have the Comet flying as soon as you can.
It is such an important and famous Aircraft in British Aviation history.
I am waiting for the day that it will grace the sky over Old Warden again.

Peter.

[BEagle]

The Lysander scenario sounds good!

But personally I'd love to see ac such as the Miles Messenger, Miles Gemini, Speed 6, Arrow Active - and, of course, the wonderful Mew Gull (just reading AH's book yet again!).

And purrleeezze let's have the DH88 airborne again soon.

Re. aerobatics - in a period aeroplane such as the Jungmann, Tiger Moth, Arrow Active, yes indeed. As good as DD's Extra displays are, I personally don't find it in keeping with the atmosphere of the Collection.

And let's have Airbedane back to flight status again soon!

[Airbedane]

Thanks for the kind words, Beags, but if you carry on like that, you'll have me feeling guilty at wanting to close BZN............

BeauMan - if you look carefully, you'll find answers to all your questions within the thread - particularly the one about Duxford clashes. (But, to save you spending another hour on it: we changed our show dates a decade or so ago to deconflict with Duxford, but they changed theirs accordingly a year or so afterwards. With enough support, we can easily change the Spitfire wing tips, and I suppose it is about time she went clipped again).

Lysander and other scenarios - I agree and we'll do what we can.

Comet - we're planning for the next flight early in 2005, which is only 18 months away.



A

[LowNSlow]

I'm with the clipped wing team. It does return the VC to the way nature intended her to be.

I enjoyed the Lysander show as well. I've yet to make an Edwardian show but will be making every effort next season.

Airbedane there was a mention earlier in the thread that there could be room for a few aeroplanes at OW. Any space for a nice cream & green Auster which is currently residing at the former Bowker International Airport near Luton?

[Airbedane]

LowNSlow,

I'd welcome the Auster at OW, but I'm afraid hangarage don't come free. I've PM'd you contact details,

A

[Man-on-the-fence]

As an aside I dont suppose the show dates for next year have been finalised yet have they?

[Philo]

Airbedane,
I have only just joined this forum, but am no stranger to such goings on and am known to quite few names that I see here. I think I have deduced who you are and I wish you well and hope to see you airborne again soon.
I think that this has been a pretty constructive thread, although I don't agree with all of the suggestions from my fellow enthusiasts.
I have also read some of the critisism on other threads,and have defended OW to a degree.
Through family committments etc I was only able to get to OW once this year and that was for the last Sunday show, I (other than the LVG dissapointment) thoroughtly enjoyed the day and immediately rejoined the SVAS. My intention is to get to as many events as possible next year.
As for specifics, I personally don't think OW is the place for jets, its a special arena filled with beautiful and unique aircraft ,lets keep it that way, for the time being anyway.
Denny, well he is exceptionally skilled and exciting to watch, but perhaps not at every OW event.
Visiting and different aircraft, some nice ideas here, but again OW has a good selection of very interesting 'home grown' stuff, do we need much more. Maybe the BBMF and RNHF and some Ferte Alais stuff occasionally.
I have to say I have never really had any need to complain about catering or toilet facilities, they are not perfect sure, but they are a world better than a lot offer.
Whatever happens just keep doing what you do, I for one will continue to support SVAS and OW.
Phil

[Airbedane]

MOTF - the dates are available - maybe on the Colection's web-site - but if not I'll send 'em to you.

Moderator - am I allowed to post 'em on this thread?

Philo - thanks for the good wishes and I hope to be back up and running by next season. Regarding the content, as I've said before, we can't plese all the people all of the time, but we can try.... Come and say hello when you get to see us next year and you can give me your thoughts face-to-face,

A

[Man-on-the-fence]

Airbedane

Thanks for the offer re the dates, I have giot some details via our friendly ATCO however I wouldnt have any objection to them being posted here. Its all in a good cause after all.

[wagon pull]

I have only just come onto this thread, but would like to say as a regular visitor to Old Warden for the past 10 years I have always enjoyed the displays. What makes a good airshow is the variety and I suggest you (Old Warden) just keep up the good work. I do like the really old and slow with fast and furious thrown in between a very good balance. All the US airshows have this mix it means you are catering for a bigger crowd and if there is a particular item you are not interested in why not use the time to get a coffee, sandwich or visit the loo.

[TD&H]

Airbedane

An idea for producing funds for Shuttleworth: So many visitors enjoy the Edwardians and the film 'Those Magnificent Men'. Unfortunately the film doesn't seem to be available on DVD. Could Shuttleworth arrange, being the guardian of the only airworthy aeroplanes from the film, to have a DVD produced for sale at OW? If you could arrange to add some film shot from onboard the OW aeroplanes it would be a special DVD that I think lots of regulars and PPruners would enjoy. Add some good photos from DB and MOTF that all PPruners seem to like, some behind the scenes film of preparing the OW aeroplanes for a display day, the maintenance involved in keeping them airworthy etc.

Perhaps others may wish to say if they would be interested in such a DVD to give you a feel of whether its a goer or not.

[JDK]

Interesting idea TD&H.

My feeling is a DVD of the Mag Men film wouldn't get great sales - the video is / was avaliable and most fans would have it.

BUT if produced as a limited edn WITH Shuttleworth content, as a fund raser for OW; then it might just work. Shiuttleworth might be able to get the rights for that limited version, while no company would be likely to release the full region 1 / 2 version on the open market (though I might be wrong.) And yes, I'd buy one!
Cheers
James K

[Cameraone]

Great idea about the Movie, however there is a DVD of Shuttleworth Aircraft displays being released shortly!

[FEBA]

Airbedane
In my loft I have two seats from an Anson, that my father rescued :E before the aircraft was broken up. Would they be of any use to you (museum)?
Please send me a PM.
FEBA

[Ludwig]

FEBA Shuttleworth had an entire Anson TX183 which they virtually gave away without so much as a bye your leave to the team of volenteers at Duxford who had spend a number of years on the restoration project!!:mad:

Clipped Wing AR501. this should be clipped, as when it was in service with 310 Squadron this is how it ran. Again the team at Duxford (of which I was a member so I know or what I speak:suspect: ) spent a long time going for authenticity (sp?) in everything and the clipped C wing was the answer, so clipped please! Elliptical wing tips were added for I think it's part in te Battle of Britain Film when it was painted with AIAon one side and something else on the other:ok:

[BeauMan]

Ludwig, far be it for me to cast aspertions, but I have TX183 down as being registered to the Jordan family (they of meusli fame) based in Biggleswade. This is as of 1985, source Vintage Aircraft Directory, author Gordon Riley. I've not heard of the aeroplane since then.

AR501, I think the film responsible for her switch to elipticals was Pearl Harbor (surely missing a 'u'?). She was definately clipped throughout the eighties, and Battle of Britain was filmed in 1968.

BeauMan (aka, pedant)

[TD&H]

JDK

I am pleased someone likes the idea for the Mag Men/OW DVD

Cameraone

I shall keep an eye open for that DVD next time we're at Shuttleworth. Will it include any views from the aeroplanes? Which was one thought for helping to show us mere mortals what its like to fly some of the wonderful aeroplanes at OW. Also it would be good for a Mag Men/OW DVD to see if there are any out-takes from the filming, not for the funnies but to show more of the flying of the aeroplanes, scenes that were good but not used. Another thought was to see if there are any recordings of the pilots chatting about their experiences flying the replicas. Could Derek Piggott be persuaded to chat about it, are there any other Mag Men pilots to add their impressions? Then to bring it up to date the Shuttleworth pilots could give their thoughts. Show a briefing of a pilot new to type, then his impressions afterwards. That could apply to all of the aeroplanes not just the Mag Men ones. Yes I know we can occasionally read their thoughts in Propswing, but a DVD would give another dimension to this and, being one of the modern media, might appeal more to the next generation.

Perhaps there are other ideas Ppruners can add to a theme for new and other ways of swelling the coffers at OW, besides the comments so far on what we think of the (lovely) place.

Cheers and happy flying (with eight hours in between!)

TD&H

[Ludwig]

Beauman Re TX183 indeed so, then sold on to a Mike Fraser who lived in Switzerland and had it up in Scotland for a rebuild, and subsequently sold on to I think the middle east.;)

[Philo]

Just reading THT's bit in Prop Swing, good to see a Jungmeister coming to OW it will fit in really nicely and I like the suggestion of maybe a Bestmann and a FW Steiglitz to form a 'German wing', perhaps even do a deal on the Storch and get that up from DX(my idea the last bit!)
It will sort of, not completely of course, make up for the LVG going of to collect dust at Hendon.
All of these things add to the flavour of OW.

Airbedane, I note that Robert Richardson says that the Bristol Monoplane will be repaired and 'on the display line for next season',does this mean airborne again or 'just' on the line?

[BEagle]

I understand that TX183 flew out to Dubai to become part of the Gulf Air museum?

[ronbvr]

I've only been to an OW show once - the Anniversary Garden Party this year. Self, wife, stepson and daughter-in-law.

Marvelous day; aircraft for everyone (including gliders - I glid sometimes myself).

Her ladyship was kept happy with a tour round the House.

I agree that the catering wasn't spectacular, but I guess much of it is done by the same volunteers who always do these things and all credit to them for it. Bring in the high-powered professionals and you'll get the same high-powered blandness and the same high-powered entrance fees. Anyway, as it was flagged as a Garden Party, we opted to bring our own supplies, washed down with beverages from the nearest tent. :¬)

The 'will they - won't they' tension as we waited for the 'Edwardians' was quite something. The Wren bungey launch and the Edwardian flights quite made up for taking the wrong turning off the A1 and adding 45 minutes to the journey home!!!

But we all agreed it was 'A Grand Day Out'.

Many thanks to all concerned. I hope to return soon.

Regards

Ron Beecroft

[Cosmic Wind]

Shuttleworth Jungmann? Can't help feeling that they are going slightly off the rails in terms of direction . Whilst I can appreciate that things have been turned around financially in recent years some recent additions don't make much sense....

Sell a quite super Chippie, buy an average Chippie
Sell the Percival to NZ, buy a Provost

I am sure that I hold the views of many in that one Mew Gull beats a Jungmann and Provost in keeping with the Shuttleworth spirit everytime!

[Hairyplane]

Hi Cosmic,

This thread has been quite positive. I think that we as a nation should be justifiably proud that we have such a jewel in our midst that has been responsible for the preservation of so much of our aviation heritage over the years.

I believe that the majority of posters concur with this.

Past disposal/ current aquisition decisions will never please everybody.

Whilst not in posession of the full facts, I am confident that the disposal of some gems in the past were agonising decisions forced by commercial considerations.

If you have bills to pay, the option always is to trim your cloth accordingly.

Fortunately, under the present regime, The Collection is a much leaner operation - disposals seem to be a thing of the past, aquisitions seem to be the rule, hence the new hangar.

Losing Jean Battens Gull wouldn't therefore happen these days so please don't tar the present regime with that and other unpopular disposals long gone, tears dried.

I see by your log-in name that you are an air racer or air racing fan. Nothing wrong with that (I think we simply forgot to run a 'mock' air race this season and will hopefully run one next).

However, other OW enthusiasts may well revel in the joys of the Jungmann performing aeros. I know I will. This is a great 30's classic and very much in keeping with The Collection.

Why dont you like it? Why don't you think it fits in?

The period is right, it has 2 wings, the crowd will love it. That my friend is what we need at OW - bum$ on seats.

Is it because its foreign? What about the Desoutter then...

Mew Gull - This was owned privately by Des Penrose. He used to display it and his Arrow Active, much the same as I do with my Magister and Falcon Miles Aircraft.

The option was there for The Collection to buy them when Des decided(ish!) to hang his white helmet up. They hadn't got the funds and sadly had to see them fly off up to Breighton where it is enjoyed in a similar environment.

Chippie - Nothing wrong with the current machine. Given unlimited funds and time I am sure it could do with an accurate paint job. However, it is airworthy. Therefore, as a priority, I am sure you would rather the engineers concentrate on the Tutor, the Comet and the Bristol Fighter?

Piston Provost - The crowds love big noisy aircraft with roundels on them. It also didn't cost a shed load of money. Good decision to buy it I say.

So come on Cosmic, chill out and enjoy - the plot 'aint been lost at all.

If you want to make your own contribution how about raising some funds to buy a WW1 German aircraft for The Collection? A replica DR1 with a rotary engine would be gratefully received.

We are a bit light in that area at the moment.

We promise to put a nice polished name plaque on the side of the fuz.

We could also do with some volunteers, especially those prepared to clean the aircraft.

Are you an SVAS member? We are even less likely to 'lose the plot' in the future if more people joined.

Do you know something, I bet more than one freeloader who peers over the fence at every show rather than - heaven forbid - buy a ticket, has dared to castigate The Collection in the past.

HP

[Cosmic Wind]

Intersting reply. Agree with most of it....
In response I am an SVAS member and have visited OW on many occasion and displayed there.

Whilst attractive in many ways the idea of a fully in house display will not encourage visitors to come to maybe more than one show per season. Some of the most memorable diaplays I've seen have been from visiting aircraft. Just surprises me that two aircraft that are certainly not rare in UK skies have been added to the collection. Not only that but some of the specialist owner/operators simply fly their own aircraft more than the OW machines; I think that you'd be hard pressed to beat a Jungmann display by the likes of Anna Walker for example.

[Philip Whiteman]

Feedback on Old Warden?

Made one of my fairly frequent visits a few weeks back. As I touched down - URGH! - I was just thinking - MMPH! - that this is just - THUMP! - such a lovely - ARGH! - place, apart from - GNN! - this ****** runway!

Then one reads about Hurricanes losing tailwheels etc, and you think: wouldn't it be a good idea to regrade the runway? The Collection isn't really going to wait until the end of 2004 before doing it, is it?

I mean, I've replaced my own broken tailwheel spring now - and I am none to keen to bust the new one in a hurry (it cost as much as four hours' Cub flying!).

[Cameraone]

I for one am pleased about the new arrival and am looking forward to seeing it display at Old Warden.

[DamienB]

Have to admit from a snapper's viewpoint a Jungmann does not fill me with excitement - too small and too far away when being chucked about, and we see them regularly already. Another one in German colours, well... gives Dad's Army something to shoot at I suppose. Some nice bright Spanish colours would be good.

If the 'opposition' are to have a better representation then I for one would like to see a Focke Wulf Steiglitz, or a Bf 108. Or a Storch!

Is the Po-2 going to be a flyer or is it just a static addition?

[Hairyplane]

Storch! Yes please!

I have fancied a Storch for many years now and actively started looking a couple of years ago.

I found a real time-warp genuine Fiesler/ Argus machine in Germany - met the agent, met the son of the owner, agreed to pay the full asking price, agreed to accept the aircraft on their terms (they actually wanted me to fly it to the UK! What an ordeal!)

However, the next thing I knew was that the owner had sold it to the USA - Gerry Yeagens now has it.

I dont think he has done anything with it yet.

If he will let it come back to the UK for the price he paid for it in Germany (and thus put right the dirty dealing by the vendor) we might see a Storch in the skies over Old Warden on a regular basis.

It was a bit of a dog but that was what I loved about it - a fasinating machine in original condition (except it has later metal wings) and with a fascinating history.

Ok, the Messenger (You didn't expect me to mention a Storch without a Messie comparison did you??) does it further, faster, smaller, more passengers, less fuel, similar STOL and, I am certain, a lot nicer to fly if those I have spoken to are all correct (the Storch is a pig to fly too...) the Storch has a fascination, attraction and sheer interest that the dear old Messenger never managed (Resignation from The Miles Collection about to be requested...!).

So come on Gerry - we want it back in Europe. Go and ask Kermit if you can fly his, we aint got one (OK, I know we have a MS Criquet with a roung engine but...well...it aint a Storch is it.

HP

[Philo]

Could some deal be done with the (assuming its still there) Booker Fokker Eindekker. I'm not sure of this aircrafts authenticity having only seen it once many years back.
The MS Bullit they have/had would also fit in nicely, again I do not know the history.

Phil

[Airbedane]

First, apologies for the delay in replying, I’ve been short of time for the past two weeks or so.

Many thanks to all who have posted. The positive replies are nice to have, but the negative ones have also been constructive. What I’m interested in is making Old Warden a better and more cost effective place for all tastes, so we need to know what’s wrong as well as what’s right. I can’t promise to do anything about it, however, but where I can, I will. At least we now know what you don’t like.

Mag Men DVD – what a great idea. I’ve been patiently waiting for Mag Men (and the Battle of Britain) to come out on DVD for some time, so it would be nice to ‘kick start’ the process. For this to happen, I’ll need some help and possibly some sponsorship – ideas in either case would be appreciated……….

Clipped wing Spit – the aircraft came out of the factory with the wing tips on, so I don’t have too much of a problem with the authenticity. However, we’ve had the tips on since the Pearl Harbour filming, so I suppose it’s about time they came off for a period. Provided the Chief Engineer can find the time during 2004, we’ll have ‘em off mid season or so.

Bristol Monoplane – ‘back on the line’ in Shuttleworth speak means ‘ready to fly’, so we should see her back in the air during the 2004 season.

Buying and selling policy. The current acquisition policy for the Collection is ‘the first hundred years of flight’, with the added proviso that all exhibits must fly. The two exceptions to the latter are the Primary Glider – currently in the roof - and the Flying Flea – which had it’s C of A removed in the thirties.
Thanks for your input on the subject Hairyplane, I couldn’t have put it better myself.

Runway – I’m sorry to say that the runway levelling will not take place until the end of the 2004 season. We need to close the airfield to carry out such work, which has meant cancelling the last (October) display and moving the September evening display by one week. We can’t do this without forward planning, hence the delay.
The bumps in the runway are concentrated towards the 21 threshold, so if you land according to the marked displaced threshold, or slightly beyond it (caution short runway, however), then you’ll minimise your exposure to the bumps. Finally, the Hurricane broke her tailwheel on the runway extension, landing in the 03 direction – the runway extension is flat.

Opposition aircraft – I’d love to see a genuine first or second world war aircraft in the Collection – a Fokker DVI, DVIII or DR1 and an Me109E would be just great – any sponsors willing to give a hand would be much appreciated. (The LVG was always on loan from the RAF and RAF Museum, it had to go back sometime. Lets be thankful we had the pleasure of it in the air for at least some of the time, rather than sad at its’ loss).

Po-2 – we hope to get it in the air next season, but it’ll depend on certification in this country – we’re working on it.

Again, thanks for the input,

Airbedane

[Man-on-the-fence]

How about Corgi models of some of the Shuttleworth Aircraft. I would love the Spit and Hurri in my collection.

I know Biplanes are a bit harder do manufacturer but I'm sure they have thought about it.

[Southern Cross]

The Jungmann is G-RETA, a 1950s' Spanish CASA Jungmann from North Weald . The collection has done a great deal to acquire her and I am sure she will be a wonderful part of the Collection.

The Eindekker is no longer at Booker but now resides at Compton Abbas.

[treadigraph]

Having secured G-RETA, I was going to suggest that the Collection next acquires G-ARBO which still exists, but it's difficult to see how a PA-24 Comanche would fit in... a classic in its own right though!

Looking forward to seeing G-RETA in action... lovely aerobatics...

[TD&H]

Hello Airbedane

I agree that Hairyplane put across a very good view of what has and is happening at OW.

As the poster of the idea for the Mag Men DVD then I shall be happy to help, even if its only for ideas for what extras to the film should be included. Happy to do some researching and other associated bits and pieces. Wish I could be in a position to offer financial support, but if I could I would have been buying one or two aeroplanes with view to keeping at OW! But time is something I am happy to offer.

Rgds TD&H

[G-KEST]

I heartily agree with Philip Whiteman's post on the nature of the Old Warden main drag. Never mind the fillings, the last arrival I made on 22(?) detached my false teeth and quite spoiled my subsequent R/T. It really is bloody rough and I reckon has already done a deal of damage in the shape of the Comet though that is but speculation on my part. Our Skybolt snapped the tailwheel spring on a normal approach and touchdown about 18 months ago and that caused us a fair bit of expense and inconvenience. Visits now are usually by car since we are but 45 minutes away by road yet to get over to Leicester, get the 'bolt out of the hangar, book out, start up, taxy and depart then 20 minutes to OW, join circuit and land takes over twice as long and costs ten times as much.

[hairyclameater]

You kept that quiet Airbedane!!, (or Ive probably missed a thread elsewhere) but I have read you have repainted the Tutor in CFS display scheme colours, complete with sunburst wings! wow!!Cant wait to see that banking round the enclosure!!

Slightly off thread, but in connection with Spits with clipped wings, I only recently found out that MH434 left the factory with clipped wings and went on to serve with both the Belgian and Dutch Air Forces in that configuration.Only when she was bought privately in the UK as G-ASJV were the tips fitted. Surely the longest serving consistent airshow performer??

Back on thread -never did get a reply concerning the cost of repainting the Glad back in RAF markings. Now I dont want to sound offish here but I for one would much rather see the cash thats being spent on completely repainting your new Jungmann being turned to restoring the Gladiator to her former glory. The Jungmann could survive a year in civvy marks I'm sure without much protest, but that Glad deserves better!!
please.......pretty please... comments anyone??

[DamienB]

RAF markings on the Gladiator... mmmmmmmmmmmm.... must. wipe. drool. off. chin.

[Airbedane]

The Tutor's a secret until next season.......I think!?

Apologies on the Glad paint estimate, Hairyclameater, I'll do the research and let you know. From your point of view, the downside is that the Glad has recently been worked on and is therefore, good for a few more years. The Jungmann needs the fabric off in places, so we need to repaint anyway. In the end, it's all down to economics and engineering time.

All I can say is: "We'll try"

A

[JDK]

My considered thoughful reply to this excellent thread is still being formulated, but:

Gladiator. It's my wife's favourite BECAUSE it's silver. Given that she's also proofread a book on the Glad for us, (By Alex Crawford - no ads here, but it's sold v well & features said machine well) she's alowed more than one vote, I'd say!

It's also had a good few years in RAF colours, and will again, no doubt, meantime it serves as the ONLY Norwegean schemed a/c in Britain (I think?) and a reminder that it wasn't just Britain etc, in 1940... It's also a great scheme because it's different, and I just love thinking of all those reggie spotters having to check BOTH sides (you have, haven't you!)

I'm not saying don't repaint it, I'm just saying leave as is for a while - part of O/W charm is the variety and colour of the magnificent machinery - not just green grey and brown...

More soon!
Cheers

[hairyclameater]

Think the Tutor scheme news is far from a secret!!

Thanks for considering the Gladiator scheme - still want it back!

Have been checking tentative airshow dates for next year ...
yet again you clash with Duxford on two occasions and even Waddington for the R-R show. Presumably if you had been holding an autumn display next year you would have gone for the 10th October as Duxford have?...

Stop making it so difficult for us!, especially those like me who can usually only make the odd Sunday for non work/family etc etc events!!

There are few enough airshows around now compared to 10/20 years ago, and it seems all organisers ignore August - the biggest holiday month of the year!!

[Airbedane]

I've answered this one before, but it's worth a repeat.........

Up to the late eighties, we used to hold display's on the last Sunday of the month. At that time, it was noticed that we clashed with Duxford.

So we changed to the first sunday of the month and we've held shows on such days ever since, but soon after we changed, we noted that we still clashed with Duxford.

What should we do now, change back to the last Sunday of the month and see what happens?

[Grandad Biggles]

What's the thought about some Mid-afternoon Saturday displays, say starting at 16-00 and stretching into the evening?

It would interesting to have some comments on this one!

[airgage]

MMMh, like the saturday idea, blends into avisit to a pub aftwards rather nicely.

Re: clash of dates, can't Shuttleworth and Dx talk to each other about dates or is that to radical an idea. Ther must be room in the display calander for both?

[Zlin526]

hairyclameater,

Have been checking tentative airshow dates for next year ...
yet again you clash with Duxford on two occasions and even Waddington for the R-R show. Presumably if you had been holding an autumn display next year you would have gone for the 10th October as Duxford have?...

How about attending some of the other Shuttleworth displays that dont clash with Duxford or Waddo, but maybe clash with East Fortune, or Farnborough, or Southend, or Woodchurch, or countless others displays? Most of the Duxford shows are 2 day events, so attend one on Saturday, and the other on Sunday?

I manage to go to 20+ displays in a season, and manage to catch all the things I need to see, even if it means driving around all weekend http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/acclaim.gif

You can't please all of the people all of the time....:rolleyes:

[treadigraph]

Airgage, how well you know the way my mind works! Are you thinking of The Cock? Hic!

[airgage]

Treadigragh, Why not a balbo of hostelries?

Seems like we have a consensus on this one then? :D

[hairyclameater]

Zlin Re: "I manage to go to 20+ displays in a season, and manage to catch all the things I need to see, even if it means driving around all weekend"

Well lucky you!!

Aah those care free days of 10/15 days ago when I could attend 20+ airshows a year - no kids, nice easy 5 day 9 to 5, young free, single and some decent venues to visit and aeryplanes to see!!

I'd also contest the phrase "countless other shows"!?- maybe a few years ago but certainly not these days!

Like I said, Sundays are the only days I can easily escape and when I can get to Old Warden (260 mile round trip plus I drive a lot during the week - which aint nice any more) I want to see a full flying show - not a couple of hours in fading light!

I dont know what you should do Airbedane re the dates.It just appears to me that there are so many weekends with nothing happening (and its usually sunny!!) and then certain weekends with 4 or more shows.Not to mention the foreign ones which are always worth a visit!

[ladyanorak]

The Collection has tried to have dicussions with Duxford, but to no avail. Our dates are the same every year (1st Sunday of the month, and usually the 2nd Saturday) couldn't other venues look at their dates?!!
With regards to August, the Collection holds 3 shows in August the 1st Sunday, the Flying Proms and an evening show, can't really fit anymore in.

[hairyclameater]

Yeh, your right ladyanorak! Old Warden shows have been around for a long time on the same dates - the OTHER shows should show some respect and arrange their dates aound you.:ok:

[JDK]

I thought this long running thread was very good and important. As a long term fan of OW, I've been formulating my reply... While that's still formulating, here's another thought!

It's been brought to my attention that the 70th Anniversary of the Macrobertson Air Race from Mildenhall to Melbourne is this year.

Shuttleworth have the Comet. (Hoorah!) Which should be flying this year (Confirm pls? 3 cheers for 'yes')

No Boeing 247 or Fairey Foxes are airworthy in Europe (shame) but a very important Dutchman is - the DC-2 replicating Uiver, no 2 after the Comet G-ACSS in the race. As several other a/c in the race (OK, NOT the Pander either) could be mocked up by using S'worth based a/c, ('My Hildegarde' anybody?) a commemoration of the race is, theoretically, possible.

I'd LOVE to see the DC-2 & Comet in the air together. First time since 1934 I'd say, too. How historic is THAT then?

With a Thirties day on the prog already... OK, flying the DC into Old Warden isn't possible, but the DX place up the road would be.

What's the possibilities Old Warden people? Airbedane; Biggleworth, are you online? I'll say Please!

Cheers
James K

[vintage ATCO]

JDK

I mooted that when I saw the DC2 at Lelystad a couple of years ago. There is quite a display featuring images of G-ACSS.

The DC2 did fly over Old Warden last year, I think during the de Havilland Moth Club Charity Weekend. Does that count? :D:D


VA

[JDK]

Thanks VA,
You know the answer... 'NO!' What we want is airbourne, close formation, and curving around the famous O/W bend. I can dream. I'll sette for a display by both a/c on at the same S'worth show. Better would be a loose formation - is it possible? Look Airbedane, I'll say pleeeze twice...!

[Airbedane]

Sorry JDK, but the Comet is not due to fly until next year.

We've decided to postpone the next flight until the runway has been levelled and resurfaced, which is planned for next winter - starting on 13 Sep. She'll fly as soon as the runway has recovered in 2005.

[JDK]

Hi Airbedane,
Thanks for answering the point, even with a negative.:( As ever, safe operation first, even if the anneversary is missed. You will be wheeling the Comet out on some airshow days and pointing at it as a pinnicle of aviation achievement even if it don't get to fly in 2004?

Can I have a hypothetical question then? Would the Collection consider sending the Comet to Lleystad (in 2005 or after) in return for a (flying!) visit to Old Warden by the DC-2?

In the UK is is easy to underestimate the importance in Holland of the success of Uiver, the fame of the crew and thus the importance of the race.

Can we have an air-race commemoration in 2005 (or 2014?? :p)
Cheers
James

[ozplane]

If the idea of a MacRobertson Air race recreation did come about wouldn't Wroughton be a good place for it? The Science Museum have a Boeing 247 (unairworthy) in their store there and I'm sure you could rustle up a Rapide, BA Eagle and a Puss Moth to join the DC-2 and the Comet. Not sure about a Falcon or Hawk Major though.
On the subject of the Comet I've never seen any reference to it in the Grosvenor House Hotel or have I been looking in the wrong place? I would have thought a photograph might have been in one of the bars somewhere.

[Airbedane]

Comet to Lleystad - Current policy is not to send the aircraft overseas as an engine failure over water could lead to total loss of (pilot as well as) aircraft. However, nothing is set in concrete. Risk to the aircraft and hours burnt off must be weighed against the event it would be attending and remuneration. A trip to Lleystad is unlikely, but always possible.

Wroughton - perhaps, but same criteria wrt risk, hours, the event and costs applies.

Air race event in 2005, or when the Comet is back in the air - I expect it will be high on the agenda, but you'll have to wait and see as to exactly when.

[BEagle]

I've only seen the Comet in the air once; I was flying a Bulldog back to Benson when the red rocket shot past. Magnificent sight!

You lucky chap, Airbedane - when you fly the Comet, what will that bring your number of types and hours up to?

[Airbedane]

Luck doesn't come into it, BEags old chap, it's more a case of recognising it as it flashes past and having the right qualifications to grab hold for dear life before it dissappears into the distance.

As regads types and times, the latter is probably about a half as much as you and the former is not very many compared to others in my position. Not a good answer, but I don't think such stats are valid - they're certainly not a measure of ability, for which, unfortunately, they are oft used.

I've been fortunate enough to see the Comet many times, but by far the best was the display given by Angus McVitie (who unfortunately passed away on Jan 13th this year) at Great Warbirds, Wroughton - he won the award for best display, if I remember right. Well deserved, too!

[Ex Oggie]

Very sad to hear of the passing of Angus McVitie, this is the first mention I have heard.

Certainly one of the greats, and one of my personal favorite display pilots at OW, up there with the likes of Dicky Martin and John Lewis.

[Silas Blattner]

Is that bit in the commentary about historic aircraft should only be flown by test pilots still compulsory ? - ah well, it's still a glorious place to visit first thing on a winter's morning when anyone can have the place practically to themselves.

Silas.

[JDK]

Very sorry to hear that Angus passed away. I agree, we were always pleased to see him flying at Old Warden or Shuttleworth aircraft elsewhere. Many thanks for the flying.
James

[G-KEST]

So sad to hear of Angus's death though he had been in poor health for some time. His displays were lways a joy to watch particularly in the Vega Gull with which he had a great affinity. He was a fine test pilot and in his latter days in retirement he often tested prototype PFA aerplanes for an intial PtoF. On one occasion in a Glasair the undercarriage limit microswitch was out of adjustment and the gear continued to come up until the upper wing skins started bulgeing up. Other men would have had a cardiac arrest but not Angus. He calmly coped and put the bird back on the ground in one piece. We seldom see pilots of his calibre and I am proud to have had him as a friend. We are indeed the poorer for his passing but while he was with us we saw some very high quality displays in a wide variety of aeroplanes. Rest with the angels Angus and give your personal wings a good workout prior to recommending them for a full Permit to Fly.
Goodbye and many thanks,
Trapper 69:sad:

[Zlin526]

Airbedane,

I saw in this month's Pilot magazine that Vic Norman's Curtis Jenny is up for sale. Now that would be a nice sight at Old Warden.....At least it would fly a bit more than it does now:ok:

[Airbedane]

I'd love to have the 'Jenny' at Old Waden Zlin526, but I understand it has a high asking price - would you be willing to sponsor it??

A

[Zlin526]

Airbedane,

If I had enough spare cash to sponsor it for you fine chaps to fly, I'd at least want to have a go myself:{

Z

[Hairyplane]

I got straight 'on the case' when I heard about the Jenny.

I have always marvelled at the famous photo of a Jenny with 2 wingwalkers playing tennis on the top wing!

Now, I'm not suggesting we try that here(!) but it would make a wonderful backdrop behind the aircraft at Old Warden.

Alas, not to be....

The Jenny comes with a breathtaking price tag (well...it made me gasp!)

Lets hope that it stays in the UK - shame if goes back across the pond.

HP