View Full Version : Toronto crash?
Bubbette
12th Sep 2003, 22:10
Did I just hear something on the radio about a crash in Toronto?
Might be this http://toronto.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=to_planes20030912
LTNman
12th Sep 2003, 22:27
Surprised any airline is allowed to fly single engined aircraft.
Mikey21
12th Sep 2003, 23:25
The crash happened in Ontario, but quiete a way away from toronto.
It went down in the bush, north of Thunder bay, not too far from Hudson Bay, if you've ever heard of it.
It was a cessna grand Caravan, around 10 on board, crashed 10 miles from is destination, could be due to bad wx, possibly involving Thunderstorm.
The company is called wasaya, they offer a lot of service in the northern Ontario, yes some of those places have no roads to get to it.
They operate PC12, Caravan, 1900.
Elliot Moose
13th Sep 2003, 03:15
Surprised any airline is allowed to fly single engined aircraft.
You shouldn't be surprised there LTNman! Single Engine IFR is a fact of life on this side of the pond. The company in question operates four (now 3) caravans and EIGHT PC12's on both charter and scheduled service over a wide area of northern Ontario and Manitoba.
Before the mud slinging starts, let me say that they (and their competitors, who mostly run the same equipment) are very good companies with excellent safety records considering they conditions in which they work. These aircraft are very safe and yes I have a whole pile of time flying them, including a few hundred on the accident aircraft. I'll take either type IFR with more confidence than a lot of the light twins that are out there.
The community where the crash occurred is a small native community of about 300 people. Most charts call it "Summer Beaver" but the locals call it Nibinamik (Nibin=summer, amik=Beaver) in the Oji-cree which is spoken by all people there.
There is no road in, except for an ice road that lasts for 4-12 weeks in the dead of winter. The only other way in or out is by air from a 3500' gravel lighted runway, or floatplane. The only IFR approach is an approved GPS non-precision. There is no weather reporting of any kind within around 100 miles. The nearest all-season road ends at Pickle Lake, 125sm southwest of the community. These are tough conditions to work in and there are a lot of operations in and out of that and about 20 other communities in the area. The largest aircraft in use are Beech 1900's and HS748's. Prying either of those in and out of those strips takes some real practice, and is likely more dangerous than any risks associated with single engine flying. At least the singles can be slowed down and don't need much runway.
It will be a tragedy much larger than 9/11/01 for those people with seven of their number dead in one crash. Details are still sketchy, but the pilot was a newer commander with a couple thousand hours. A sad day for all concerned, and one that should make us all think about what it is like where aviation is the only link to the outside world. The only way friends and family from the neighbouring communities will be able to go to the funerals will be to fly in (probably on an exact copy of the accident aircraft) right over the crash scene. By mid-day today, that airport will likely have been re-opened so that everything from fuel, to lumber to food can continue to go in to the community.
Is it a 2 crew operation on the Caravan?
Elliot Moose
13th Sep 2003, 08:28
Not necessarily. The caravan qualifies for single pilot, single engine IFR in Canada. When I was there, they operated both ways. Freight and fuel ops are almost always single pilot because that second body takes away 180lbs of paying freight out of 3200ish available. With passenger ops, weight isn't generally critical, and the second pilot is used whenever practicable to enhance safety, as well as aid the PIC with things like bag loading, fueling, passenger handling, etc. They used an SOP that worked quite well with both single and multi crew jobs. The accident flight appears to have been operated single pilot.
wrenchbender
13th Sep 2003, 11:38
Excellent post Elliott! Very enlightening to hear first-hand information about that type of operation from your own personal experience.
Serving communities such as this is how aviation started out in Canada!
Apparently some of the Big Jet guys are not familiar with this type of operation. Pity.
Elliot Moose
13th Sep 2003, 21:31
Video now available at:
cbc news video (http://www.cbc.ca/news/)
Scroll down and click on the video camera icon next to the story "10 die in Northern Ontario Plane crashes"
8 died in the caravan crash. The other two were in a private cessna that crashed about 350miles away.
The largest aircraft in use are Beech 1900's and HS748's. Prying either of those in and out of those strips takes some real practice, and is likely more dangerous than any risks associated with single engine flying.
I don't think anyone would argue that a Caravan is much more suited to service this location than any twin engine aircraft. The issue here (as far as I'm concerned) is single engine "IFR operations."
To this day, I refuse to get on a single engine commercial flight that will be done in other than VMC.
In poor weather, Summer Beaver can wait.....
RatherBeFlying
13th Sep 2003, 23:44
Don't know if SE has anything to do with this sad accident yet. I do recall one NW Ontario accident at I believe Sioux Lookout where the two crew twin engine a/c hit the NDB mast.
Excellent tracking skills -- can't say the same for crew judgement.
Can't find any info on the Transport Safety Board web site -- all the CBC reports is that the police are investigating.
Transport Canada has announced that they have appointed a Ministerial Observer to liase with the TSB investigation and will be undertaking a special purpose audit.
North Shore
14th Sep 2003, 07:53
RatherBe: The crash that you speak of actually occurred at Thompson, Manitoba (CYTH). A Medevac aircraft (Swearingen Merlin SW2?) flew into the NDB tower while on approach.
From the pictures in the paper today, it looks as if the 'Van went in almost vertically, as there is no sign of an impact trail in the trees around. A sad day in Summer Beaver, as almost everyone in the community will have lost a relative. My condolences.
RatherBeFlying
14th Sep 2003, 10:05
http://www.chroniclejournal.com/editorial/dailyphoto/2003-09-13.jpg
Picture by Sandi Krasowski printed in Thunder Bay
Chronicle - Journal
Chronicle-Journal article (http://www.chroniclejournal.com/story.shtml?id=18673)
NS -- I agree it looks like a vertical impact. Indicative of elevator or pitch trim failure/malfunction.
How long ago did the Merlin hit the Thompson NDB mast? The YSL accident was some 20 years ago.
Not much to do with single engine.
If anybody is wondering about the bare tree trunks, the impact site site looks like it was burnt over some 5 years ago -- pretty gutsy for the SARtechs to jump into that:uhoh:
PT6A-34
14th Sep 2003, 21:50
Those of you talking about the safety of SE/Single Pilot IFR ops and 2 Crew IFR ops here is the link to the Metro that crashed here in 1994.
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1994/a94c0088/a94c0088.asp
From a day to day point of view two crew is much safer just for the fact there is two sets of eyes in the cockpit. But the problem lies if SOPS aren't followed, approachs are poorly briefed and there is a misunderstanding that is not rectified. In those situtations having a communication breakdown is just as bad as if you were flying single pilot with the wrong altitude punched in the altitude select for an approach. Like the A320 in France that selected 3000 FPM instead of 3.0 degree glide path and flew straight into the ground. They had avionics, local weather reports, navaids, ILS, FMC's and another pilot to monitor but yet it still got the best of them. Considering up here in the north there is no weather on the most part, NDB's as the only approache aids and night flying with zero outside reference single pilot operations fair quite well.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of this latest accident.
Was it night IFR when the accident happened?
NS -- I agree it looks like a vertical impact. Indicative of elevator or pitch trim failure/malfunction.
Highly unlikely that it was a mechanical failure in my opinion. My forecast is that the pilot failed to maintain ground clearance due to single pilot operations in a high workload environment. All it would take for the workload to skyrocket is any indication that there was a fault no matter how minor, that would take attention away from flying the airplane.
604guy
14th Sep 2003, 23:52
STC
You should work for TSB. You can find accident causes within 48 hours in the comfort of your armchair. Well done!
RatherBeFlying
15th Sep 2003, 00:03
A brief review of recent Caravan accidents does show small impact sites in thunderstorm and icing related accidents along with pre-impact integrity of the flight control system. Single pilot may be more important than single engine.
I would not call this a CFIT as there is no debris trail, nor does there seem to be a path of broken down trees (caveat taken for limited information in photo). Caravan CFITs often have survivors with no or minor injuries:ok:
604Guy,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with speculating about the cause of a crash in a public internet forum.
If you don't want to particpate, don't bother, but don't try to accuse those of us that want to discuss it of doing anything wrong.
604guy
15th Sep 2003, 04:58
STC
I have no problems with discussing unfortunate events. Tragically though, a pilot and his or her passengers have died. To start talking about the likely-hood of pilot error without being equipped with the facts is unfair to the pilot, who is not here to defend themselves, and their family. Lets wait for the facts to emerge and then we can discuss and debate the lessons that can be gleaned. Most likely at that point you and I can be in much agreement about said lessons.
Regards,
North Shore
15th Sep 2003, 05:14
RatherBe: June 1st, 1994. Here is the report: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1994/a94c0088/a94c0088.asp
Dockjock
15th Sep 2003, 06:38
Yes it was night. The flight left Pickle Lake around 2030 local time and it is approximately 1 hr to Summer Beaver or so they say.
Could another cause be that there is no visual approach slope guidance in a place like that? Black hole effect?
In any case very sad. May they all rest in piece.
broadreach
15th Sep 2003, 08:37
EM, thanks for your post. Good of you to emphasise the qualities of the airline before the speculation. I know how devastating it is on a small community. And my humble admiration for the SAR people.
604guy,
This isn't a matter of me accusing anyone. I was discussing probable cause and probability.
Why don't you scold the person who suggested it was an aircraft fault? Is that "fair" to the aircraft manufacturer?
604guy
16th Sep 2003, 04:53
STC
At least the airframe manufacturer is still around.
We could go back and forth on this ad nauseum. I don't won't to do that as I'm sure you don't. We'll agree to disagree for now and await some concrete information to come out.
You started off this thread by mentioning the fact and I am paraphrasing, that TC allows single engine IFR ops for part VII operators and how you disagree with that. On that sir (apologies if I have misspoke the gender) we do completely agree.
pigboat
17th Sep 2003, 08:49
I lost a friend once in a stall/spin accident with a Norseman on floats. The debris pattern looked pretty similar to that one in the picture.
Chuck Ellsworth
17th Sep 2003, 09:05
Yeh, Pigboat it looks like that may be what happened, the shape of the airplane is still evident pointing to a flat impact rather than flying into the ground either shallow or vertical.
But why?
Chuck
This is sort of reminiscent incident report I read.
I'll try to find it again if anyone is interested.
The autopilot was controlling the descent and the aircraft CG was aft of the operational envelope due to passengers shifting around in the cabin during flight. The pitch trim went to full travel in an attempt to relieve the control forces and when the pilot disconnected the autopilot, the control column rapidly flew forward.
The airplane dove steeply but the pilot recovered before impact.
pigboat
17th Sep 2003, 10:20
Chuck, yeah good question. How close was he to the strip, I wonder. May have been peering out the window looking for the lights and it got a little slow on him in a turn, or something. I think I'll wait for the report.
FU24-950M
17th Sep 2003, 10:29
Guys & Gals
I will take a Bush pilot before I take an airline Cadet.
"You can take the pilot out of the bush, but you cannot take the bush out of the pilot".
Bush pilots have that ingrained self preservation quality - They survive because of their own self discipline. No one else is there to look after them.
Well Done Elliot M
UKflyer
17th Sep 2003, 20:52
Sorry, just read the first page!
The flight left Pickle Lake at 7:30 p.m. CDT and was to arrive in the community an hour later.