View Full Version : Aer Lingus to recruit Irish Nationals only
Ontheairwaves
4th Jun 2001, 05:35
I hear that Aer Lingus are actually going to break their traditonal hiring of non nationals and actually look at their own back yard for some pilots....
Seems to be a new thing for them to do
RVR800
4th Jun 2001, 17:45
Contrary to EU law ?..
Nice Treaty ballot ?..
CaptSensible
4th Jun 2001, 21:27
you still upset? Get over it.
Flat Erik
4th Jun 2001, 23:20
Having lived and worked in Ireland for over 2 years, I have found that there sure is a very anti-foreigner attitude, particularly directed towards the Brits. It's not just me, many collegues feel the same way and have left as a result. Anyway, most foreigners couldn't afford a house in Dublin anyway, so, "Good luck" to them!
EarlyGo
4th Jun 2001, 23:27
Being from the Emerald Isle myself Erik I'm afraid you've got a point, which is a bit of a shame considering how many Irish have migrated to England, America or whatever. They migrated for economic reasons, to find work and make a new life, yet now that Ireland is booming there is a reluctance to accept things going the other way, as it surely will when a country is newly prosperous.
Dublinflyer
5th Jun 2001, 00:18
I wonder if they could keep up this policy if they are bought by BA?
Bramble
5th Jun 2001, 01:54
I was at work today chatting to a couple of the 'drivers' and from the way they were bemoaning their fate EI need all the pilots they need.I don't think EI can afford to be picky about nationality when they are so short on crews. But considering some of the bizare decisions made by EI senior managment who knows what they'll do
Blackshirt
5th Jun 2001, 02:20
Can you imagine the outrage in the media if, for example, BA made it policy not to hire Irish citizens???
Utter outrage, after all, that would be racist!
Bramble there is by no means a pilot shortage in EI, they dont even have enough spaces for returning cadets.
tailscrape
5th Jun 2001, 02:41
Now, from what I have heard the whole company is in disarray (from current drivers), so how many Brits would want to decamp there anyway?
Not hiring Brits, no problem. My opinion anyway.
Oh, and everyone here slags them for paying peanuts , so again why would you want to work for them and get paid sweet f.a. in a weaker currency than our own.
At least people won't have to hear the twaddle from a certain Captain Mc something over there in their recruitment department.
Good luck to them, cos they'll be back when they've made a mess of it all in a while....
high & fast
5th Jun 2001, 03:20
Yes indeed. Having worked for them I agree there is an anti-foreign attitude in Aer Lingus. This comes from a minority of pilots but it is still a significant amount. It is also particularly directed at the guys from the UK. Looks like the company is in severe trouble anyway. Turning in such small profit in what is Ireland's biggest boom time ever. I think a trade sell off is very likely. Good Luck people!!
EI - E I - O
5th Jun 2001, 05:23
Erik and High and Fast. I have worked in the U.K. and being Irish, I got the 2rd class citizen attitude, constantly, in the Queens Isle, for long enough. But, you just get on with it, and move on and move up!!
Nobody has real time for people with that attitude.
Maybe when BA take over, things will get better?
Dublinflyer
5th Jun 2001, 11:03
Do you think they would consider selling it to RyanAir? At least it would stay in Irish hands and maybe it would turn a profit if it was run by people who know how to make money.
EI - E I - O
5th Jun 2001, 13:03
Dublin Flyer - Great Idea, "Ryan Aer" would would work, but the colour scheme, may be a bit naff.
But you know what they say about "Blue and Green"!
Dublinflyer
5th Jun 2001, 13:32
The Public Enterprise Minister is meeting with IMPACT this evening
following a request from the union. Mary O'Rourke is to discuss recent
speculation about the future sale of the airline. SIPTU has been invited to
that meeting but National Industrial Secretary Noel Dowling is unsure, as
of yet, whether or not they will attend. He says that he will meet with the
Central Executive this morning to discuss it.
Noel Dowling, SIPTU National Industrial Secretary, discusses the union's
issues at Aer Lingus
http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0605/morningireland/morningireland7A.ram
I rang up to enquire about their sponsorship program last year. They asked me where I live and when I told them, their immediate response was 'can't you find an airline in England to fly for'.
Having said that though, its no worse than Quantas saying Australians only, or American Carriers specifying Americans only. After all, Eire is a foreign country.
Carnage Matey!
5th Jun 2001, 15:16
Err no. Ireland is in the EU and its completely illegal to discriminate against other EU citizens in this way. There's no such law in the USA or Australia. Imagine the outrage if we decided to send all the Irish back from the UK!! Now the French, that would be a different matter!! ;)
Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean it in that sense. I meant that Aer Lingus is an Irish airline and I guess they want Irish people fronting it. Whatever the EU says, I can understand, however frustrating it is for the rest of us, what they are saying.
CaptSensible
5th Jun 2001, 17:22
Aer Lingus currently employs pilots from:
Holland
France
Norway
UK (England, Scotland, N.Ireland)
Finland
Australia
New Zealand
USA
Lebanon
...probably others I'm not aware of, and more than one of each I might add. The more the merrier!
They also employ lot's of Paddies.
'Fraid you've picked the wrong target to accuse of racism. In fact I think you all misunderstood the origintor of the threads point...he's complaining 'cos he (a Paddy) didn't get hired...just because he's a paddy!! He obviously feels that all he (and the other Irish applicants) should have to do is turn up!
Well if that ain't racism, what is?
As far as I've seen no pilot in ALT 'dislikes' foreigners. Just as long as they can do their job and are good heads, that's good enough for the vast majority.
[This message has been edited by CaptSensible (edited 05 June 2001).]
And to put more weight to Capt S argument... EI after the collapse of TLA hired in total... wait for it 0 pilots of the 25 natoinalities working in TLA... obviously TLA had a racist problem...NOT. Ask any of the 25 groups what they thought of working with the "Paddys" as so lovingly called by our neighbours. We even had a lot of English Scottish and Northern Irish and they stayed till they got their experience and moved on barr a few good men. :) :) :)
flybystring
5th Jun 2001, 18:25
AN EMPHATIC NO THEY ARE NOT !!
Yes like any company anywhere in the world there are a few "oddballs" who don't like the colour of your hair,skin, nationality, sexuality,the paper you read etc etc but out of 600+ pilots you could count them on one hand or less ? and they are not so stupid so as to advertise. Lets face it AL is now so PC, that you now get fired for touching on the hand and touching the shoulder because its an invasion of personal space.
CS Please also add
Canadian
South African
PS it is bloody expensive but thats an economic choice that effects everybody here.
[This message has been edited by flybystring (because I didn't read CS's list properly)
[This message has been edited by flybystring (edited 05 June 2001).]
CaptSensible
5th Jun 2001, 18:36
When TLA went bust ALT had already ended their DEP recruitment and were exclusively hiring for the cadet scheme.
And as a matter of interest, before TLA rolled over, at least a half dozen guys left them to join ALT...while the DEP jobs were still there. Still happily employed.
Actually, the funny thing about this whole thread is how completely arse about face it is. ALT loves to hire Irish boys and girls as cadets because, historically, the DEPs and non-nationals tend to leave. Not good for your training costs. Also not good because you have to then increase the pay to keep the others from doing same!
Better to pay locals crap money (as happened for years) in the knowledge they'd never leave, even if you dumped on them from a height.
This is yet another reason why every ALT pilot should (and I believe does) support the hiring of non-nationals, as well as our own...they provide a healthy balance, and keep the management on their toes.
Ultimately therefore this thread is b###ox (yet another one) because ALT, just like every other company, hires the best it can get for the job, and operates it's hiring policys to suit it's needs...within the law.
If anything, ALT has an excess of this kind of PC practice.
Bramble
5th Jun 2001, 19:12
"Bramble there is by no means a pilot shortage in EI, they dont even have enough spaces for returning cadets."
Yet the 330 crews seem over worked.However we have too many 737 f/o's. I got this from chatting to the crews.It seems to me a shortage of experience rather than bodies,but then again I am just a tea bag squeezer!!!So feel free to correct me
Bow5, your comment about American carriers saying they hire only US nationals is completely wrong.
I, together with many other Brits, Irish, Latin Americans, Ozzies et al work for a US carrier and I am sure that the same is true of all the other US airlines.
US Immigration, the INS, specifies visa issues, all the US carriers ask is that you have the right to live and work in the USA, ie naturalised citizen, green card or some other kind of visa permitting you to be here legally.
Yeah OK. I might have generalised a bit there :)
I was taking what I had seen on the AA website about sponsorship being only open to US citizens as read across the industry. Am I right in thinking though that you have to have the right to live and work in the US to work for a US carrier?
ChoppiCharlie
6th Jun 2001, 02:12
Guys and Girls,
This thread is losing itself in the unfortunately inaccurate picture some of you are painting. AL have many non-nationals operating for them at the moment. In Operations it is now uncommon to hear Irish accents!! Of a recent class of Cadets 8 of the 10 were British!! How is that racist? There are also French Citizens, Australians, New Zealanders, Scandinavians and the good old Americans. So please......... Meanwhile the company is in dire straits due to the management of the heap! Many years ago pilots there gave back a scale on their salary to help the company out. Where has that left them now? If AA/BA or BMI were to buy the airline ,that would at least inject a bit of professionalism into the only area lacking it.....that is......the management would change! Thank God! Bring on BMI! We already have the American routes set up for you AND you would have no major competitor on the DUB-LHR route....Happy Days!
Meanwhile IMPACT the trade union representing pilots there had had to ask them not to issue a statement supporting Michael Foley!! That speaks volumes and tells all of you what the present staff think of B. Cahill....the man who is singlehandedly bringing the airline down!
Bow5
sure you have to have the right to live and work in the US to be hired by any company in the US, even foreign ones.
Ontheairwaves
6th Jun 2001, 10:30
There seems to be alot of people using TLA's(three letter abreviations).
Capt S
since you are a very informed ALT man perhaps you could clarify why DEP's are such a liability to ALT when CADETS can just as easily jump ship once they have the required number of hours that xyz airline is looking for. Does ALT think that the fact that they have spent 1 1/2yrs training them that the cadets will stay any longer than a DEP???
Could never figure that one out....perhaps you could shed some light on this??
Ontheairwaves
6th Jun 2001, 10:38
Capt S
one last comment, i don't think i should be accused of racism because i think i should be hired because i'm a PADDY,.....no not at all,....i thought i should be hired because at the time(10yrs ago) i had 50hrs and demonstrated that i was prepared to become a pilot and being IRISH i want to fly for the NATIONAL carrier.....how silly i was back then......to think that they'd be remotely interested in taking somebody on from their own back yard.....
Yeah dog eat dog.....ALT want the best they can......but still i thought that they'd look to their own first and failing that then look abroad.
I know of some guys who worked with ALT got their CPL's and then were not hired by ALT even though they had a proven track history with the company.....if they don't take guys from within the company what chance did i ever have....
Dublinflyer
6th Jun 2001, 16:37
It looks like Aer Lingus won't even be Irish itself soon so I don't think this will ever be an issue. Unless RyanAir buys it.
CaptSensible
6th Jun 2001, 21:56
Ontheairwaves, it's nice to have a rational exchange with you for once.
In spite of the fact that you evidently hold it against the pilots of Aer Lingus (inc. myself) that they didn't hire you...it has absolutely nothing to do with me or the average pilot.
There are managers in the company who are charged with that responsibility. Some of those managers are indeed also pilots...but let's just say that they are managers first, and pilots second!
I can't answer your question about the selection process. I've never been involved. I do however know that it is truly the case that 'Cadets don't leave' but DEP's do. I can't give you statistics, but out of the group that have left in the last twenty years or so I reckon around 5% were cadets...the rest were DEPs. Exactly what mechanism is at work I don't know. The cadets are every bit as marketable (maybe more so) than the DEPs, yet they tend to stay. I think it's probably the 'get 'em young and you have 'em for life' syndrome.
On the subject of your second post. I myself know many Irish guys/girls who put all their money and dedication into getting a licence, hoping to get into ALT, only to be rejected. With some you might be able to identify some kind of reason for it, but with the majority I could see absolutely none. Yet still they got knocked back. Again, don't ask me why. Maybe poor interview technique...who knows. Interestingly, those who didn't get into ALT often weren't accepted by FR either...
BTW, I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with you (so don't fly off the handle). Look, the same thing happens everywhere! BA don't feel obliged to hire every Brit who gets a licence, and yet they have hired Paddies.
Anyhow, given your dislike of the company I can't understand your desire to be a part of it. They probably did you a huge favour by not taking you. Would you really want to be involved in the current mess? You're better out of it, believe me.
Silver Tongued Cavalier
6th Jun 2001, 23:03
As a foreigner working for Aer Lingus, I can honestly say that I've never experienced any form of "racism" whatsoever. In fact I relish the opportunity, can't wait for a bit of sporting fun!
All the people I've met with in EI have been top quality, some great characters, and a joy to work with.
Get the job done to a high standard, have a laugh, earn the respect of fellow employees and it's a great place to work, mind you just don't touch anyone's wrist, Irish girls just aren't like that you know! Must start going down Tomangoes more often!
A few people commenting on this site with chips on their shoulders and axes to grind seem to have no idea what they are talking about. Irelands in the EU (and done exceedingly well out of it too), therefore can not discriminate over EU nationals.
We all know that we work in the most international of all industries, and being a Pilot is one of the most worldwide marketable careers. Irish guys who can't get in EI should look elsewhere just like all the foreigners in EI who had to move here, or would Mammy not like that??!! Whoop whooop Banter Alert!
Most people know that Airline selection is really a Lotto, people get refused Aer Arran one day, and get in BA the next, it's just down to the applicant and the selectors on the day.
Next few months will be very interesting though for EI, don't fancy working in Head Office though!!
<small>[ 13 March 2002, 00:13: Message edited by: Silver Tongued Cavalier ]</small>
Ontheairwaves
7th Jun 2001, 10:21
Capt S
yes i guess you are right about the interviewers.....i just wanted when i was younger to be flying the flag....but had to go further afield.....yes they probably DID me a favour....but when i'm parked in JFK and cast an eye across at the Shamrock, one can't but think of what might have been.....
CaptSensible
7th Jun 2001, 17:32
There's lots of pilots in ALT who wish they were on the Shamrock parked in JFK!
Good luck wherever you are anyhow.
Simple argument is they cannot legally only hire Irish Nationals.
Any EU National is allowed to apply for the job. If necessary Aer Lingus would have to prove why they prefered say an Irish Pilot to a For example British Pilot.
In all honesty I think Aer Lingus would recruit anyone that they felt would be an asset to the company, regardless of Nationality.
Sagey
Bearcat
7th Jun 2001, 21:49
Capt Sensible,
you come across as a very junior second officer when you take up the position of AL spokesman defending the holy grail. A bit of humility now and then wouldnt go amiss.
dick badcock
8th Jun 2001, 00:31
Ontheair,
Cadets sign a seven (7) year bond, DEP only sign a three year bond. Those 4 years in between are the difference between "Should I buy a house or rent?"
Once you've bought, you're settled in! Majority of DEP's are renting, cadets live at home for 3-4 years saving up for that first downpayment
OK, so I might be generalizing a bit, but hey? ;)
CaptSensible
8th Jun 2001, 02:34
Bearcat I don't getcha.
Just statin' facts...take it or leave it.
I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over this, because myself and several others have, I think, clearly refuted the allegations which were cheap and nasty to say the least.
It just seems rather weak of you to resort to yet another personal attack in desparation.
Last refuge of the man without an argument to make, they say.
This thread is patently exhausted, and the subject is now closed as far as I'm concerned.
It badly needs a padlock Mr.Moderator.
[This message has been edited by CaptSensible (edited 07 June 2001).]
Jet A1
8th Jun 2001, 16:05
Why we are on the topic why not daub Emirates with the same brush -- - They employ a number of 'Foreigners'
Bearcat
8th Jun 2001, 23:43
Sensible,
I have no cross to bear, all I was saying jeez you certainly wear your heart on your sleeve. Funny I never made any slanderous remarks but jog my memory but was'nt it your goodself that told me to go back to my north side abode? Besta luck, close the thread and happy flying