Pax using GPS

[Maxflyer]

Sorry if this has been asked before....

Myself and mrs MF are going to Sri Lanka on Sri Lankan Airlines in November. I have a Garmin Pilot III and wondered if I would be allowed to take it onboard and use during the flight?

[BAe 146-100]

Hi,

Maxflyer, yes I think you would be able to.

BAe 146-100

[RadarContact]

Maxflyer, please be sure to inform the cabin crew about that. It doesn't happen every time but I've had some very strange things happen with somebody using a handheld GPS, so they'll know who to yell at when the displays in the cockpit start showing up totally new colours... :)

I know it's technically only a receiver, but these also tend to concentrate EM field strength around them.

[Maxflyer]

RadarContact....

If there is even the slightest possibility that it could interfere with a cockpit display, I won't bother.

Thanks for the heads up.

MF

[604guy]

There also might be some anxiety amongst the cabin crew as to a) what is this electronic device? b) why is there (possibly) something suctioned against a window ie antenna? c) why does a passenger need to know EXACTLY where we are?

We are in the post 9/11 world.

[Memetic]

It's a radio reciever so I think the strict answer is if the airline bans the use of radio recievers they ban GPS.

This got discussed in this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84981


Edited to make thi this....

[av8boy]

Strictly US regs...

14 CFR 91.21 Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person
may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft
allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the
following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating
certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the
aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation
or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used. [snip]
***********
Note the phrasing... There is no requirement that the operator shows that a PED causes interference before that PED is banned. Rather, a given PED is banned until the operator is satisfied that it will not cause interference.

So, if the operator doesn't want a pax using a GPS, it merely claims that it has not evaluated the GPS and the device is therefore banned. In the US I've seen some carriers allow GPS and some prohibit GPS use. Seems a little disingenuous though (one airline bans GPS regardless of aircraft type and configuration, while another allows GPS regardless of aircraft type and configuration. Doesn't seem like a decision based upon the actual potential for electronic interference really...) However, I do understand the argument that the jury is still out on this issue.

I'm completely supportive of a ban based upon security concerns and a rule change to support such a ban, if necessary. I just quibble with the current inconsistent rationale/explanation...

Dave

[Air Born]

I asked the crew about this on an unnamed airline and they told me that "the aircraft would mean that it wouldn't work anyway"......?!?! I didn't push the point.

[Hen Ddraig]

This topic is also running in the Private flying Forum

Time to spare. Go by air.

HD

[GlueBall]

Back in the days of OMEGA, some of us would bring along portable GPS receivers just for fun, or to cross check OMEGA accuracy. We would attach the antenna with a suction cup on the rear side window which had no electric heating elements and therefore wouldn't interfere with reception. It worked great, and without affecting other navigation or radio equipment. For "external" power (to save batteries) we'd plug into a 28 VDC light bulb socket. Needless to say, we couldn't and wouldn't use our personal GPS units for primary navigation, although they were more accurate than the OMEGA units.:cool:

[Jetdriver]

These items are radio receivers and NO you wouldn't be allowed to use them on board. They have the potential to cause interference and it is impractical to expect the crew to have to assess the relative merits of each toy a passenger brings on board.

Certain electronic equipment may be permitted in accordance with rules pertaining to the timing of its use and always at the discretion of the aircraft commander but the use of radio receivers and or transmitters whatever their strength is never usually permitted on board exept where it is part of the aircraft architecture ( for example in flight phones ).

Taking it on board and switched off of course is not likely to be a problem.

[av8boy]

Jetdriver,

You certain? For instance (and again, this is limited to the US, thus, for example only), American won't allow pax use of GPS at all, but Delta treats a pax GPS like a laptop. There is, however, one difference. Although Delta allows both laptop and GPS to be used above 10 thousand, it also allows the GPS (but not the laptop) to be used during taxi-in to the gate. Of course, neither may be used during taxi-out, climb (BLO10), descent(BLO10), approach, etc.

I checked the Sri Lankan website and found some PED info but nothing on GPS. Is your info specific to Sri Lankan?

Just wondering,

Dave

[Jetdriver]

The information is not specific to Sri Lankan. But our own company in the Uk will not permit their use based on advice received from the CAA. Perhaps the poster would be as well phoning the airline in question to ask the question.

In the Uk it seems that the CAA has suggested to airlines that reports suggests there is the potential for disturbance. It may be up to each operator to interpret the advice in light of their own operation. From your comment it seems to be the case in the US as well.

The latest fad to arrive seems to be mobile phones (cell phones) that have a "flight mode" this enables the phones functions to be used in flight whilst disabling the telecom function of the phone itself. The problem with this is that crew are unable to distinguish which phones are switched on and operating in this mode. The company has taken the view that it will not permit phones to be operated in flight at all that includes phones that may be operating with this mode enabled.

[av8boy]

Same thing in the US re cell phones. Been reading some FAA enforcement cases lately where this was the cause of action ("I wasn't TALKING on the cell phone...I was just PROGRAMMING it!).

Dave

[Onan the Clumsy]

But...if a portable GPS would REALLY cause a problem, then how can it be allowed as navigational equipment?

Admittedly it wouldn't be used in airline flying, but what if you owned a fancy airplane and a Garmin 295? Does this mean that you can't turn it on in case everything else stops working?

What if you were in a 172 and #2 for takeoff behind a 737? or worse you were taxiing out as the 737 was on the roll?

Phones I can see because they were made for a different purpose, but a handheld aviation GPS is made for flying, so how could it cause any problems? Doesn't really make sense to me.

[strafer]

I'm confused too. Exactly how can non-transmitting receivers affect airline systems?

PS re a previous post about 'mysterious radio equipment'. This is the same equipment that has been available in cars for some time. Most people are aware of Sat Nav.

[paulo]

I doubt aviation GPS units cause problems with avionics. The best anyone has ever demonstrated with regards to RF interference is the CAA tests of mobiles when used in the cockpit. Away from the cockpit, i.e. in the cabin, the tests have been fairly inconsequential with those relatively high powered transmitting devices.

Meanwhile Lufthansa, for example, is happy (and with them, the FAA) to fit low power transmitting devices in the cabin, i.e. WiFi.

There's a huge amount of scaremongering on the subject of RF, but there's no analysis to give it weight. In fact, just the opposite. Most flights, like it or not, will operate with active mobile phones on board. Most GA flights, will run some kind of GPS. We are not in the midst of a zillion 737s or 172s crashing to the ground.

Nonetheless - leaving a mobile on, esp. if you are flight crew - is probably unwise, and for other unusual non transmitting gadgets the operator or commander's policy should be respected (i.e. Ask!) , if only to stop any in-flight issues caused by the percieved problem.

[Onan the Clumsy]

On a different note, I hear they have jamming technology that'll kill cell phone transmissions. Usefull in say a restaurant or concert hall. I wonder if anyone's thought of the opposite - a machine to trigger them all to ring. That way at the start of the concert, they could activate them all and people would be reminded to switch them off.

Would have been useful at the wedding me and the misses went to over the weekend. It had just started and I remembered her phone was still on. She started to switch it off but then we remembered that it plays a little tune when it switches off. Whose brilliant design was THAT? :mad:

[paulo]

Onan, you must at least name the offending handset manufacturer!

[PAXboy]

"She started to switch it off but then we remembered that it plays a little tune when it switches off."

Take the battery out, rather than switching it off!

[Onan the Clumsy]

Paulo, it was a Motorola :yuk:

Paxboy, I thought of that, but, Couldn't figure out how to do it as it was her phone :ugh:

[PA38]

I was going to start a new post on this very subject, I am going to Faro on Mytravel in October.
Would they allow me to take my pilot 111 on a Mytravel flight, or should I go cap in hand to the Captain on boarding;)

[My names Turkish]

Onan, A Cinema owner in Ireland Purchased such a device for blocking Cell Phone transmissions. He was forced to turn it off as he was advised he could be prosecuted under the same law as they used to use for Radar Detectors in Cars, The RadioTelephony act, which I believe is very similar to its namesake in the Uk.

I think they are a bloody good idea. Cell phones are becoming so Antisocial. Peopla actually start talking on them in the cinema over here in the US, not even making the slightest effort to hide the fact:{

[RW-1]

You may use a GPS on your flight. In fact Garmin encourages you to do so 'cause you can play with it during that time, makes it much more fun to get to know your unit.

Have had mine on every flight so far, no issues, with the exception of a DC-9 crew who wanted me to leave it up front for them :)

While it is a receiver, it is an aviation approved receiver, and as to your situation, I simply tell you to do this:

Bottom line: Before flight, simply ask the Captain, if he says yes, you're done. Use it and be happy!

Most airlines give the captain discretion over what is and is not allowed, and they typically will go by the airlines policy.

As an ex Naval Avionics technician as well, I go with Paulo's answer. In fact I worked with Hardened aircraft for EMP, and to tell you, the port GPS in the back isn't generating enough RF field, if at all, to interfere. There have been larger problems with in flight fires from the entertainment systems onboard that have shown some degree of interferance than your unit will.

On the other side, knowing your position can be aggravating, I went from FL to Jersey, and held outside West Virginia for 3 laps, then over DC we diverted, and you could tell we were diverting by the course, and looking out at the weather ahead, my FA thought it was great knowing ahead of time, as when the captain gave us the divert speech, we plugged in direct to the divert location, and had an instant idea of how long to get there (for the most part, going around the klag, Newark was closed hehe) ...

[dexter256]

You've probably all read it, but here's a link to a UK AIC on PEDs:

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4P148.PDF

[batty]

I tried my Garmin GPSIII in the cabin as pax and it was rubbish very weak signal even when held right to the window.

I fly the B737-200 a highly modern aircraft :rolleyes: and take it with me at times and put it on the coming...gets a great signal there and at times has been of great help.

[paulo]

I've struggled with my GPSIII as pax aswell, but it did work a treat on a CRJ-700.