Pax using GPS
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Pax using GPS
Sorry if this has been asked before....
Myself and mrs MF are going to Sri Lanka on Sri Lankan Airlines in November. I have a Garmin Pilot III and wondered if I would be allowed to take it onboard and use during the flight?
Myself and mrs MF are going to Sri Lanka on Sri Lankan Airlines in November. I have a Garmin Pilot III and wondered if I would be allowed to take it onboard and use during the flight?
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Maxflyer, please be sure to inform the cabin crew about that. It doesn't happen every time but I've had some very strange things happen with somebody using a handheld GPS, so they'll know who to yell at when the displays in the cockpit start showing up totally new colours... 
I know it's technically only a receiver, but these also tend to concentrate EM field strength around them.
I know it's technically only a receiver, but these also tend to concentrate EM field strength around them.
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There also might be some anxiety amongst the cabin crew as to a) what is this electronic device? b) why is there (possibly) something suctioned against a window ie antenna? c) why does a passenger need to know EXACTLY where we are?
We are in the post 9/11 world.
We are in the post 9/11 world.
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No.
It's a radio reciever so I think the strict answer is if the airline bans the use of radio recievers they ban GPS.
This got discussed in this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=84981
Edited to make thi this....
This got discussed in this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=84981
Edited to make thi this....
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Strictly US regs...
14 CFR 91.21 Portable electronic devices.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person
may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft
allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the
following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating
certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the
aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation
or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used. [snip]
***********
Note the phrasing... There is no requirement that the operator shows that a PED causes interference before that PED is banned. Rather, a given PED is banned until the operator is satisfied that it will not cause interference.
So, if the operator doesn't want a pax using a GPS, it merely claims that it has not evaluated the GPS and the device is therefore banned. In the US I've seen some carriers allow GPS and some prohibit GPS use. Seems a little disingenuous though (one airline bans GPS regardless of aircraft type and configuration, while another allows GPS regardless of aircraft type and configuration. Doesn't seem like a decision based upon the actual potential for electronic interference really...) However, I do understand the argument that the jury is still out on this issue.
I'm completely supportive of a ban based upon security concerns and a rule change to support such a ban, if necessary. I just quibble with the current inconsistent rationale/explanation...
Dave
14 CFR 91.21 Portable electronic devices.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person
may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft
allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the
following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating
certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the
aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation
or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used. [snip]
***********
Note the phrasing... There is no requirement that the operator shows that a PED causes interference before that PED is banned. Rather, a given PED is banned until the operator is satisfied that it will not cause interference.
So, if the operator doesn't want a pax using a GPS, it merely claims that it has not evaluated the GPS and the device is therefore banned. In the US I've seen some carriers allow GPS and some prohibit GPS use. Seems a little disingenuous though (one airline bans GPS regardless of aircraft type and configuration, while another allows GPS regardless of aircraft type and configuration. Doesn't seem like a decision based upon the actual potential for electronic interference really...) However, I do understand the argument that the jury is still out on this issue.
I'm completely supportive of a ban based upon security concerns and a rule change to support such a ban, if necessary. I just quibble with the current inconsistent rationale/explanation...
Dave
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Back in the days of OMEGA, some of us would bring along portable GPS receivers just for fun, or to cross check OMEGA accuracy. We would attach the antenna with a suction cup on the rear side window which had no electric heating elements and therefore wouldn't interfere with reception. It worked great, and without affecting other navigation or radio equipment. For "external" power (to save batteries) we'd plug into a 28 VDC light bulb socket. Needless to say, we couldn't and wouldn't use our personal GPS units for primary navigation, although they were more accurate than the OMEGA units.
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These items are radio receivers and NO you wouldn't be allowed to use them on board. They have the potential to cause interference and it is impractical to expect the crew to have to assess the relative merits of each toy a passenger brings on board.
Certain electronic equipment may be permitted in accordance with rules pertaining to the timing of its use and always at the discretion of the aircraft commander but the use of radio receivers and or transmitters whatever their strength is never usually permitted on board exept where it is part of the aircraft architecture ( for example in flight phones ).
Taking it on board and switched off of course is not likely to be a problem.
Certain electronic equipment may be permitted in accordance with rules pertaining to the timing of its use and always at the discretion of the aircraft commander but the use of radio receivers and or transmitters whatever their strength is never usually permitted on board exept where it is part of the aircraft architecture ( for example in flight phones ).
Taking it on board and switched off of course is not likely to be a problem.
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Jetdriver,
You certain? For instance (and again, this is limited to the US, thus, for example only), American won't allow pax use of GPS at all, but Delta treats a pax GPS like a laptop. There is, however, one difference. Although Delta allows both laptop and GPS to be used above 10 thousand, it also allows the GPS (but not the laptop) to be used during taxi-in to the gate. Of course, neither may be used during taxi-out, climb (BLO10), descent(BLO10), approach, etc.
I checked the Sri Lankan website and found some PED info but nothing on GPS. Is your info specific to Sri Lankan?
Just wondering,
Dave
You certain? For instance (and again, this is limited to the US, thus, for example only), American won't allow pax use of GPS at all, but Delta treats a pax GPS like a laptop. There is, however, one difference. Although Delta allows both laptop and GPS to be used above 10 thousand, it also allows the GPS (but not the laptop) to be used during taxi-in to the gate. Of course, neither may be used during taxi-out, climb (BLO10), descent(BLO10), approach, etc.
I checked the Sri Lankan website and found some PED info but nothing on GPS. Is your info specific to Sri Lankan?
Just wondering,
Dave
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The information is not specific to Sri Lankan. But our own company in the Uk will not permit their use based on advice received from the CAA. Perhaps the poster would be as well phoning the airline in question to ask the question.
In the Uk it seems that the CAA has suggested to airlines that reports suggests there is the potential for disturbance. It may be up to each operator to interpret the advice in light of their own operation. From your comment it seems to be the case in the US as well.
The latest fad to arrive seems to be mobile phones (cell phones) that have a "flight mode" this enables the phones functions to be used in flight whilst disabling the telecom function of the phone itself. The problem with this is that crew are unable to distinguish which phones are switched on and operating in this mode. The company has taken the view that it will not permit phones to be operated in flight at all that includes phones that may be operating with this mode enabled.
In the Uk it seems that the CAA has suggested to airlines that reports suggests there is the potential for disturbance. It may be up to each operator to interpret the advice in light of their own operation. From your comment it seems to be the case in the US as well.
The latest fad to arrive seems to be mobile phones (cell phones) that have a "flight mode" this enables the phones functions to be used in flight whilst disabling the telecom function of the phone itself. The problem with this is that crew are unable to distinguish which phones are switched on and operating in this mode. The company has taken the view that it will not permit phones to be operated in flight at all that includes phones that may be operating with this mode enabled.
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Same thing in the US re cell phones. Been reading some FAA enforcement cases lately where this was the cause of action ("I wasn't TALKING on the cell phone...I was just PROGRAMMING it!).
Dave
Dave
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But...if a portable GPS would REALLY cause a problem, then how can it be allowed as navigational equipment?
Admittedly it wouldn't be used in airline flying, but what if you owned a fancy airplane and a Garmin 295? Does this mean that you can't turn it on in case everything else stops working?
What if you were in a 172 and #2 for takeoff behind a 737? or worse you were taxiing out as the 737 was on the roll?
Phones I can see because they were made for a different purpose, but a handheld aviation GPS is made for flying, so how could it cause any problems? Doesn't really make sense to me.
Admittedly it wouldn't be used in airline flying, but what if you owned a fancy airplane and a Garmin 295? Does this mean that you can't turn it on in case everything else stops working?
What if you were in a 172 and #2 for takeoff behind a 737? or worse you were taxiing out as the 737 was on the roll?
Phones I can see because they were made for a different purpose, but a handheld aviation GPS is made for flying, so how could it cause any problems? Doesn't really make sense to me.
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I'm confused too. Exactly how can non-transmitting receivers affect airline systems?
PS re a previous post about 'mysterious radio equipment'. This is the same equipment that has been available in cars for some time. Most people are aware of Sat Nav.
PS re a previous post about 'mysterious radio equipment'. This is the same equipment that has been available in cars for some time. Most people are aware of Sat Nav.
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I doubt aviation GPS units cause problems with avionics. The best anyone has ever demonstrated with regards to RF interference is the CAA tests of mobiles when used in the cockpit. Away from the cockpit, i.e. in the cabin, the tests have been fairly inconsequential with those relatively high powered transmitting devices.
Meanwhile Lufthansa, for example, is happy (and with them, the FAA) to fit low power transmitting devices in the cabin, i.e. WiFi.
There's a huge amount of scaremongering on the subject of RF, but there's no analysis to give it weight. In fact, just the opposite. Most flights, like it or not, will operate with active mobile phones on board. Most GA flights, will run some kind of GPS. We are not in the midst of a zillion 737s or 172s crashing to the ground.
Nonetheless - leaving a mobile on, esp. if you are flight crew - is probably unwise, and for other unusual non transmitting gadgets the operator or commander's policy should be respected (i.e. Ask!) , if only to stop any in-flight issues caused by the percieved problem.
Meanwhile Lufthansa, for example, is happy (and with them, the FAA) to fit low power transmitting devices in the cabin, i.e. WiFi.
There's a huge amount of scaremongering on the subject of RF, but there's no analysis to give it weight. In fact, just the opposite. Most flights, like it or not, will operate with active mobile phones on board. Most GA flights, will run some kind of GPS. We are not in the midst of a zillion 737s or 172s crashing to the ground.
Nonetheless - leaving a mobile on, esp. if you are flight crew - is probably unwise, and for other unusual non transmitting gadgets the operator or commander's policy should be respected (i.e. Ask!) , if only to stop any in-flight issues caused by the percieved problem.
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On a different note, I hear they have jamming technology that'll kill cell phone transmissions. Usefull in say a restaurant or concert hall. I wonder if anyone's thought of the opposite - a machine to trigger them all to ring. That way at the start of the concert, they could activate them all and people would be reminded to switch them off.
Would have been useful at the wedding me and the misses went to over the weekend. It had just started and I remembered her phone was still on. She started to switch it off but then we remembered that it plays a little tune when it switches off. Whose brilliant design was THAT?
Would have been useful at the wedding me and the misses went to over the weekend. It had just started and I remembered her phone was still on. She started to switch it off but then we remembered that it plays a little tune when it switches off. Whose brilliant design was THAT?
Paxing All Over The World
"She started to switch it off but then we remembered that it plays a little tune when it switches off."
Take the battery out, rather than switching it off!
Take the battery out, rather than switching it off!