Groundhand
 

Groundhand - I'm all up for a clear out, nothing like a good fire in the undergrowth to encourgage new shoots!

But there is that little thing known as our contracts to sort out, oh at any rate much of what you say has already happened at BA. Outsourcing much of non essential services, developing 2 tiered contracts for the workforce. I.e. new recruits on far worse terms and conditions than existing staff. (a terrible inequality)

Just read a great article on the BA BRAND - LINK Some bloke called Kevin Murray a x - head of communications at BA (think brother of Ruby Murray). Article states how they think the BA brand could be damaged beyond repair.

But there may be enough 'goodwill in the tank' to see us through. So as some other posters have said, a strike by any unit at BA could see the end, we are gentlemen on the brink....... and with 2 sections of staff, the pilots and cabin crew rumbling away it looks ominous.

Doors to automatic!!!!!!!:ok:

You are right
 

StorminNormin - you are right, always.... What are you going on about or have I missed something in the excitement about the autobot plane?

Stormin - you changed your post, you naughty chap. No it's not dementure, I understand now, you are right that there is a thread going that suggests, along the lines of it could be a deliberate attempt to scupper BA, whilst they whistle through someother devious dealing. Usual smoke and mirrors cheap magician trick. Anyway the thread if nothing else keeps the conspirators happy..

Groundhand...

We do - that's why we are so upset that things are going so badly. Our punctuality has been awful in the past two years, our service well below what it should be. Despite some strengths, most people are upset with the state of the operation and its beyond their control. As a pilot, I can influence punctuality, but only in a negative sense. I can't make tugs appear or an aeroplane arrive on stand sooner if I am stuck waiting for one to arrive. Given that I'm always ready unless something gets in my way I feel that I am delivering a service that is worth the money. Unfortunately the airline as a whole is not. All of us play a part in that, but by doing my job well, along with almost all of my colleagues we can't make it any better. Other forces are required - this includes changing working practices and managing things better - and getting rid of people who are not needed. Unfortunately Willie came along with a giant axe and took bits off of every part of the operation, when in fact he should have added to some and taken away from others. Its a management issue rather than one of working practices, although they do play a part.

The management view of working practices is poorer than it ought to be, they single out the minority and extrapolate that to the the majority. Our cabin crew for instance, who are seen as inflexible (and some indeed are), often work right up to the maximum they are allowed to legally in longhaul. You can't get much more out of them than the legal max.... (and I don't mean union max).

A lot of airlines who seemingly have flexible crews often loose many (they get fed up) and use questionable practices. Like an airline who recently asked someone I know to fly two early sectors, position up the country and then fly two lates, calling the time in the taxi "rest" to allow the duty. That's just illegal and stupid and I for one am pleased we have union agreements to prevent that. Having seen both sides of the coin in BA and outside, I think the union agreements, at least for some groups of staff, help both the company and the staff.

What doesn't help is not seeing the woods for the trees, and Willie is doing just that. He can't see the incompetence of staff below him (including illegal deals) and can't see that investment is needed to prevent losses. BA says today that the T5 probs have cost £16million. Imagine if we spent half of that training staff and planning, we would still be 8m ahead, its just it wouldn't be seen like that, it would be seen as 8m wasted. We'd still have the same staff and the same working practices, but we'd have a working terminal and plenty to be proud of, and also we'd have a stronger bottom line and future.

Terminal 5
 

I've got the idea in my head that this thread has
put there.
I have a distinct feeling that the whole situation
has been skilfully manufactured in order to reduce
any will by the Pilots to go on strike over the Openlies
fiasco by giving them the idea that any further action.
Or should I say FUTURE action by them could put BA
in jeopardy:{
But thats not possible, I hope.
Willies not THAT bright, is he?

Try £270 million
 

Ornithopter - Nice reply, you sound like a sensible chap, yet you too are irked by what has been going on for sometime now. T5 just became the tipping point that realised all that is wrong at BA.

But just imagine what £270 would of bought in staff and training support at BA. That was the cost of the price fixing scandal, od which Martin George and the other Clot Burns walked away not in shame, but with a nice golden handshake.

Cake for the upper echeleons and sh1t for those, very professional, coal face employees.

BA pension swindle
 

Stormin - It happen with the BA pension, a little distraction (cabin crew IR issues) whilst 2.1 billion was saved from the pension pot. Now that's something even Paul Daniels couldn't pull off, or Debbie MacGee for that matter.

I think he's bright, no doubt.............. up for a fight, no doubt........ realises the pilots have the upper hand, no doubt...........

BAeng
 

Thanks, or should I say that?
You just reinforced my idea that this is a manufactured
situation to force the people that matter back into line!
I need more medication!
Must go and lie down now.:\
Hope I don't have nightmares about pilotless planes!:eek:

Groundhand:

Quite right Groundhand. The trouble is that the process has to be started from the top, and there would appear to be more than enough evidence that the Board and Senior Management can't and won't "walk the Talk" that goes with the sort of business transformation you are obviously talking about.....Perhaps if BA hired the CEO of Air New Zealand.....you know, the one that works on the check in and makes his senior executives load bags once a month so that they have an intimate understanding of the Customer experience.


....On second thoughts, that isn't going to work unless you get the Board to do likewise.

Willie humping bags
 

But Sunfish, he is humping the bags;

try; www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk

What a laugh!!!!!! Kept us entertained in the 'restroom' no end:p

Website URL changed !!! spelt willie wrong, what a silly billy

If only...

try this link
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article....&in_page_id=34
enjoy!

Pool championship
 

Ahh Five bells you would be talking about the interTerminal Pool and darts championship. One runs on a 3 year rotation the other on a 4yr rotation. You've guessed it, the 12 yr cycle when they clash coincided with the opening of Terminal 5.

Wierdly last Thursday was the opening rounds of both contests, everyone has ago and gets involved so it's quite a busy day.. Stupid of management to plan their opening when there was so much else going on....

Oh the link to williewalshgame

www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk

BA standing instruction 2
 

Para 1 - Price fixing June 07 failed that promise
Para 2 - Delivering promises to customers, what like flying them somewhere? Yep you got it, screwed that promise many times over the last few years. (hey but don't worry it was someone elses fault)
Para 3. Honest communications??? Working as one team ??? Respecting individual and collective rights - Nope don't see any of that good stuff
Para 4. Rail roading through a dodgy environmental report, pushing for a third runway, refusing to consult with local pressure groups. Yep you got it, not much commitment to that promise
Para 5. The environment - yeah with the greenpeace lot on the planes I don't think BA is very respected for being a green organisation, ref 3rd runway at LHR etc

Board has responsability, but clearly not the accountability that is usually attached to such a promise. Will someone please stand down over this.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2313/...5df1c5.jpg?v=0

Try the image search function on Google - Wee Willie never seems to smile. Instead he only ever likes to look seriously powerful and in control. Rod Ellington was regularly seen smiling as far as I can recall. This Sun photo is a typical Walsh image. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...icial%26sa%3DN

Ignored
 

Thank you Two-Tone-Blue for your remarks about the relevance of my post number 1010. Unfortunately you appear to have been the only person who thought it merited a response because not one of the apparently knowledgeable people on the forum has offered me the desired reassurance, nor indeed even a plain statement that "You'll be lucky to get your suitcase back at all assuming you manage to get to LAX and back".

L9172

Get the feeling your being ignored
 

L9172 - you are not being ignored, I guess we just don't have the answer your looking for, sorry mate.

I personally wouldn't want to tell you to take the chance, to find it all went pear shaped for you on your trip. Innit as Two-tone-blue would say.

That's one of the issues with BA at the moment, why it has lost the trust of the customer base. If T5 was an isolated incident, it would be shameful, but not the end of the world. The problem is, and i thought this was the thread here, that there have been a succession of problems all that have let the passengers down.

Underlying all of this is an organisation which is defective to say the least.

Those market issues are known and already priced into the shares. BAs hype on the wonderful improvements T5 would bring was priced in too - now it isn't.

The investors are coming out of the woodwork now, see:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3670961.ece
- 4th para onwards.

When a major institutional shareholder makes comments like that in public, then the CEO of a PLC is in trouble.

From the various posts describing the management culture of BA, it would appear that its problems fit a reasonably well known business culture model involving successive layers managing "up" trying to get ahead. As a result their managing "down" is not very good at all.

......and of course if you see management in terms of "Up" and "Down" then that's part of the problem too. The inverted pyramid is a much better way of looking at things.

That reminds me of a line a Flight Engineer on the 747 Classics used once,

"Other airlines care less, British Airways couldn't"



Priceless.

Yes we have experienced the same or worse levels of cutbacks - in particular we have lost a huge amount of experience to natural wastage and early retirement. These skills aren't being replaced with fresh blood and that does worry me.
At the moment levels of staffing in Engineering haven't dropped enough to affect safety but who knows what will happen as more of the older staff leave and numbers drop still further. T5 moving wasn't as much of a problem for engineering as it's the same aircraft in a different place.

That is sadly so true of every industry, profession and of course the dear old Health Service in the 21st Century UK plc.

Is that Tony or Gordon's fault I wonder, or does it go back to Maggie's days?

That's good to know that safety isn't a problem at the moment, though from the sounds of your post sounds like you think your on a knife edge. When the pressures on its the slack you need to provide that essential support. Oh read a post on the net which says Willie has the support of the staff at BA. from my views of this and other airline sites, this seems very far from the truth.

with respect
 

Perhaps it's just the Yank, but Free Speech guarantees the gummint won't muzzle your yap. This Forum is Private Property, owned by folks who most assuredly have the right to tune any one out they like. Back to slaggin the little weasel

I left BA cabin crew to train as a nurse 18 mths ago. I see many similarities in BA management as in NHS manangement.

There seems to be a lot of "graduate managers" ie people that have never met a pasenger/ patient yet are enabled to make huge decisions regarding their welfare. I am not against someone gaining a degree at uni and then progressing to a management position, but there is something to be said for someone "starting at the bottom" and working their way up.

I cared for a patient a few days ago who passed away. The bed manager sent the cleaners to clean his room within mins of his passing. Us nurses wanted to wait until all members of his family had been able to visit.(Some lived 2-3 hrs away) The cleaners waited outside ( with the rellys saying their goodbyes in the room) until I told them to leave. The bed manager who has a degree in media studies and an Msc in management had a huge go at me. She said that the relatives could say goodbye in the funeral home and that she needed the bed asap.

This lack of respect for the people that actually pay our wages is rife in BA too. As a purser on longhaul I often spent time calming down a pax that had been treated badly by BA. I often sent emails to relevant managers in my own time when I returned from flights to discuss the pax problems. In 13 yrs of working for BA, and 5 years as a purser I NEVER recieved a reply.

While I'm on a roll, T5 has been years in the making. Staff should have been recruited months ago and their training complete by now. Systems should have been checked and re checked, back up systems in place.

Having worked for BA I was sometimes surprised that a/c ever left the tarmac. The pilots and frontline generally are great ( if jaded by the constant apologies) The managers could not manage a drink in the proverbial brewery. As a purser glaringly obvious problems would be reported by myself flight after flight and nothing would be done about it.

In the current climate, I doubt that BA will survive another 20 years. The management system has to change and each manager witin BA has to become more accountable.

loobster,
Yes, heard the same comments from NHS acquaintances.
Thankfully, as a soldier, engineer, RAF officer and pilot most of my immediate managers have been close enough to the 'coal face' to know WTF was going on - with one or two notable and disastrous exceptions.
Some administrators are good - but when they're bad they can spoil your whole day.

However - I'll say it again - Never ascribe to malice that which can more easily be explained by stupidity.

vanHorck, I agree about the effect on unions and management in the 80's but I am afraid that UKland is not ready for European approaches to workforce management, too much US influence.

To use your words " a workforce with a healthy long term future in BA" is maybe what you should have said and, without unions, the lower end of the food chain will not get. Oops, should have seen it before, 2 yrs working for Uitzendburos in A'dam.

It is not unions screwin BA up, try WW.

Standard of BA Mangement
 

Jim McAuslan BALPA writes in todays FT

[QUOTE]Sir, Failings on the opening days of Heathrow Terminal 5 are symptomatic of British Airways’ loss of focus in delivering a sound operation. This airline can and should make Britain proud but a fundamental change of attitude is required from the very highest levels of BA management.The British Airline Pilots’ Association has for years pressed BA to focus on operational integrity – punctuality, baggage delivery and product quality. Get that right and the customers will keep coming back[/QUOTE].

The problem with the “highest levels of BA Management” is the abysmal low level of capability and complete lack of experience.

When I started my career in aviation some 40 years ago, I was told that Aviation was one industry where there is no replacement for hands on experience. BOAC/BEA did sponsor employees to do a degree in Management but as a sandwich course where the pie in the sky ideas of lecturers where tempered by the realities they experienced whilst on the ground. The result was well balanced staff who had both aviation and management skills. What has happened since those long forgotten days is that people have been promoted beyond their capability and realising the fact they have moved to safeguard their position by ensuring that anybody that they employ has less capability than they have. The result is an ever decreasing level of management capability with BA management. The really capable people have been held back and in most cases have left to work for other airlines who appreciate their professionalism. Some poor souls stick it out and remain the lone voices crying in the wilderness. Britain has made a big contribution to aviation. there are many expats working in the industry all over the world making a positive contribution.

I wonder how many of the current BA management would be head hunted by other companies for their capability and experience.

Willie Walsh promises to improve staff communication
 

http://www.cbsbutler.com/uploadimages/Loudhailer.jpg

http://www.zanarkand.co.uk/ww/31.PNG
I'll take on the opposition tomorrow. Today it's my management's turn

What a wonderful idea
 

Roobarb, maybe if I step out on to my Waterworld balcony I can use such a device to deliver my commandments to T5 staff. Like 'get on with it you lazy BEEP's'

Wonderful ingenuity, you must work for our product development team or engineering. Come to my office today and we'll discuss your management style and maybe have a latte down in the street.

ANytime will do as I don't expect much on today as we've cancelled a shed load of the operation, hey look what a great excuse the 'wrong kinda snow is'.. The wrong kind because we could of done with a months worth to see us through the move!

Loobster - you obviously have not yet seen how terrible ex-nurse managers are then!

BALPA says...
 

An open letter from BALPA:ok:

http://www.balpa.org.uk/Media---Pr/Open%20Letter.htm

From the BALPA letter . . .

This is exactly where the focus should be, on the stockholders. Only they have the power to force real change. Why are the stockholders tolerating a ride toward an all-time low stock price?

Who are BA's major stockholders?

impressive open letter from the core of BA (pilots) to the investors.... hope the letter makes all the headlines....

It looks like the Pilots are going for blood then
 

Interesting open letter from BALPA and it reads to me like the fight is really on now, and it looks like it is going to be very messy.

BA management have played straight into the Pilots hands and will pay dearly for their mistakes, sadly some of the innocent will also pay.


Regards
Exeng

It’s very sad as an outsider to watch British Airways slowly tear itself apart led by some truly terrible management and riven by internal rivalries and demarcation disputes. BA appears to have caught a very bad bout of what used to be called the “British disease". The present situation is very reminiscent of British Leyland in the 1970's at its worst and the outcome unless this situation is sorted out quickly will be precisely the same. No more British motor industry, no more national airline carrier. The comparisons between the two looks alarmingly similar just replace Willie Walsh with Michael Edwards. You really would have to be a fool or a total masochist to book an airline ticket with BA in its current chaotic state when there are so many excellent alternatives. As many airline tickets are booked well in advance it may be a few months yet before the markets punishment of BA really starts to painfully kick in. Somehow I can’t see the Government being terribly sympathetic to a bail out when Willie Walsh starts running out of cash even if the EU would allow it (check out Alitalia). The final straw may well be the forthcoming pilot’s strike which BA management have clearly done their best to provoke. What a mess and national disgrace. :confused:

Who plays Red Robbo in this farce ?
 

.............?

Saw last Finance Director John Rishton
 

,who instigated the Pensions Review, on CNBC a couple of weeks ago being congratulated on rescuing the Dutch supermarket group Ahold from the bankruptcy it was teetering on when he joined.

markrl: Welcome to PPRuNe, but sorry, but you seem to have completely lost the plot with your opening posting. Even by stretching my imagination to the limit, I can't see that comparing BA plc today with BL in the 1970's is valid.

BA makes large amounts of money despite the management-induced cockups. The workforce cannot be compared with BL.

Markri,
there are no demarcation disputes at BA the unions are far too weak for that. That we have managed to function at all is a tribute to the commitment of our very dedicated staff. We are under no illusions as to the commercial position of our company and all wish both to see it prosper and to share in that prosperity. The staff here know we can give world class service if the management let us! In no way is our position comparable to british Leyland.