Ettyl
 

It looks like another 'virtual airline' has appeared on the Isle of Man.

They did try to run before covid hit with SUN-AIR to IOM

On Ettyl's Facebook
All flights on sale during the TT are operated on the ATR 72-600 by Eastern Airways

Worrying that someone who is the supposed Head of Commercial Operations for a proposed "virtual airline" doesn't know the IATA code for Liverpool John Lennon :confused:

Particularly during current times if all you have to worry about is an airport IATA code then you must be the luckiest guy alive!

You can book flights for May/June 2021 .... Not Liverpool though

The reputation of so-called virtual airlines is there for a reason.

What makes your virtual airline any different from what has gone before?

Does your operation have any form of oversight from CAA, ATOL, or ABTA? Excluding the obvious bit which is Eastern having an AOC.

have they secured MAN slots also, as the slot rules remain in place for S21

Hopefully they'll be shut down before they get flying. The IOM needs to get a grip on these cowboy outfits before it leads to another Manx2. People lost their lives, I hope this doesn't have to be repeated before this practice is banned.

Isn't there a more fundamental issue here? This lot are selling tickets on an aircraft on which they have chartered but are not the operator, and don't have any form of visible ATOL licensing or authority to act on behalf of the AOC holder to act as a ticket provider. Right now, unless they have some suitable authority, it's breaking the law!

I don’t believe there is such a thing as an ATOL license in the Manx jurisdiction? Assuming correct, there’s little to stop them selling seats to local punters on the island.

...that said, since the whole set up appears totally geared to selling to origin markets NOT based on the island, the UK CAA might take a rather different view.

Flightrider

Illegal in the UK, allowed in the Isle Of Man. I once had a very good friend who operated for a company running services for an 'airline' that operated the same set up. He is unfortunately no longer with us due to this absurd technicality. I thought that the Isle of Man government had finally seen sense with the ending of the second iteration of Manx2, but unfortunately it seems to not be the case. I will be writing to my MP, and to the DfT to try and ensure that this 'airline' never takes to the skies. I hope anyone with any interest in aviation safety and oversight in the UK will do the same. This should NOT be allowed.

Also a great sign: Have a google of the MD- Jason Scales. This results comes up: https://sites.google.com/site/jasonscalesfraud/

A young MD, with no airline experience to speak of, who has a website dedicated to an alleged fraud. Come on IOM government, shut this down before it gets out of hand.

Are we judging a company and its people to be guilty before it has taken any substantive actions ?
Perhaps better for the people and Government of the IoM who desire to make their own laws independent of the UK to decide what regulation they desire ? Or maybe wait until the company is seen to have engaged in unsafe practices before regulators shut it down ?
The CAA can make rules, inspect companies for compliance and if a travel-centric company breaks those rules the CAA can clobber them.... but the company should at least be given the opportunity to comply with those rules before forbidding them from even starting

planedrive

This is getting a little overhyped and out of hand now and the age is wrong too. You're making some very emotional and overhyped assertions.

Allow me to clarify a few points:
1) The article you reference pertains to a company I was contracted to assist, messy but no relevance to my personal circumstances. If it really matters to you, way back when I had my first business aged 12, nominated for the Daily Mail Enterprising Young Brits awards and have successfully established and exited multiple businesses of my own and helped others too. Ive had business failures too in that time, but i dont lead in to any investment without knowing that risk. Youre right, I've never been directly involved with aviation from an operational perspective but have hired the relevant people who do and working with strategic partners who safely operate in the sector to work on this with as a travel business.

2) This is not an airline. My primary business is in commercial property on the Island, we have set from the outset that it is a sole purpose endeavour for the Isle of Man TT. There is an assumption that this is a reincarnation of Manx2, it really isn't. We are partnering with reputable carriers, not far flung European ones (not that there's necessarily a problem with that, I guess) and we are not in any way trying to represent being an airline although the model is for seat only sales. It is actually for the good of the Island and its people. We have spent a number of weeks over the summer supporting and sponsoring local events and the Islands economy.

3) There are other separate conversations ongoing around securing relevant regulatory approval to service scheduled routes for the Isle of Man, but this will categorically not be done under a VA model and who knows if it will ever happen.

Aside from that - and with very open dialogue with relevant local authorities - the travel business will service niche opportunities and events on the Island.

A website hastily edited from saying they have an ATR72-600 'in their fleet' to this:

"[sic] What aircraft will I be flyin on?
Ettyl is not an airline and therefore does not operate its' own fleet. Our currently flights on sale for the Isle of Man TT 2021 are operated on an ATR 72-600."

Question 1) Why were they trying to mislead customers in the first place only to change it when pointed out?
Question 2) Is there no spelling/grammar checker in their website host system?

Amateur mistakes like this and you reckon we should leave them to run an 'airline' and just keep our fingers crossed. I'd rather action was taken before something went wrong.

If they are selling tickets in the UK - and you can book for travel originating in the UK - you need an ATOL, an exemption from the need to hold an ATOL or an approved ticket seller agreement with the AOC holder. I can't see any sign of any of those and you have to have at least one of these three things before you sell tickets - not just by the time you fly. I don't know the equivalent regs in the IOM, but those are the requirements in the UK. The reply about the Daily Mail business awards is a good read, but what about the question that really matters - is this venture (in its current form and at this time) actually legal?

Looking at Flights for Saturday - they need at least 2 Eastern ATR72
0700 BHD

0700 MAN

0920 GLA

0940 DUB

1200 CWL

1210 BHX

1610 MAN

1630 GLA

1850 DUB

1910 BHD

Flight-rider

Jason Scales ‘MD’ has stated that if they continue with Scheduled services they won’t be a Virtual Airline.

I’m told that the IOM government were discussing the future of flights over the next few days, so we will have to await the outcome of that

Flightrider

The sale of a package in the UK requires ATOL and lets be honest here, we've all seen operators selling packages originating in the UK using Spanish (or other jurisdiction) bonding rather than the CAAs ATOL. Which is a ridiculous yet compliant practice.

In this instance, ATOL regulations have no standing in the Isle of Man but we have been in dialogue with both the IOM and UK CAA to ensure compliance with the 'Airline Ticketing Agent' rules in respect of the IOM TT 2021 and there are contracts in place with the operating carrier. So in response to your question, yes. There is no mark, no seal or badge to display in respect of this as you would with ATOL.

To clarify again: in its current form, this is not an airline, virtual airline or attempt to be anything in between. Its a travel business focussed on crearing much needed lower cost capacity for a specific event. The UK - unlike the US - does not have separate governance of 'public charters'. If - big if - we look to do anything more including our current review of undertaking scheduled services, then we will only do this in a fully regulated manner than a half botched bandaid airline. But that's still early days.

Apologies for my confusion but it does sound a lot like a virtual airline.

davidjohnson6

I'm not angry at the company. I'm angry that lessons clearly haven't been learned by those who supposedly make up the rules - or else these loopholes would have been sealed shut. It's all well and good if the Isle of Man wish to make their own laws but at least look where that ended up last time.

ATOL regulations may have no standing in the IOM, but as you are selling tickets to UK passengers for travel originating in the UK, you are bound by the regulations for any such sales. The ATOL regulations do not apply only to packages - they apply to seat-only services as well.

If you are acting as a ticket agent on behalf of an AOC holder, you are required to make that clear. I am sure that the CAA would have told you that. I cannot imagine that they have sanctioned an arrangement where there is an obvious absence of transparency, especially given the sensitivity around this. It is a legal obligation that the passenger must be aware of the party with whom they are entering into a contract for carriage. The ticket agent arrangement also means that if Ettyl was to cease trading, the AOC holder (so Eastern) would have an obligation to either carry the passenger or refund their money if they elected not to fly (and pay compensation depending on the notice given of flight cancellation).

Let's cut to the chase:

Question 1
If I buy a ticket from you, with whom am I entering into a contract?

Question 2
Does your agreement to charter the aircraft from the AOC holder either include an agreement for you to act as a ticketing agent on the operator's behalf or is there a separate such agreement?

Question 3
Have you actually received UK CAA acceptance of this or any other arrangement which confirms you are exempt from the need to hold an ATOL?

Wow,

I last viewed this thread only some 12 hours ago and upon my return it has all kicked off with perhaps the only words of reason coming from davidjohnson6.

I predicted to myself that this or similar situation would happen, that all the critics and nay sayers bored during lockdown would emerge having experienced a similar situation on PPRuNe myself.

Now to try and put things in to some perspective if operating flights utilising another operator's aircraft is unacceptable and worthy of ban then that puts an end to the commonplace practice of sub-chartering and sub-leasing, aren't codeshare agreements doing precisely that and as another example where would Australia have been during the 1989/1990 pilots dispute had Ansett and Australian Airlines not been selling tickets for travel on the aircraft of European operators?

And operating one's own aircraft on another operator's AOC has been a common practice also with a prime example of this being easyJet, when easyJet started selling tickets and operating they didn't even have an AOC or a ground operations department, they were operating on Air Foyle's AOC and who would have heard of a guy 'Stellios' at that time, had there been the internet and rumour network in those days might he have found himself being accused of being a fraudster with less than knowledgable individuals threatening to write to their MP's to have his operation grounded?

Now having been thru a similar kangaroo court situation here myself I have some sympathy towards these people at Ettyl, PPRuNe is paid for by revenue earned from commercial advertising, individual posters here are not permitted to commercially advertise and even Jenny Tails posting the commercial link in her first post has breached the rules that we all agree to before posting here.

Bound by those same rules are the people of Ettyl, perhaps their mistake was to join this discussion in the first instance but I made that same mistake once before also, a number of you are firing off questions at these people which should they answer to they shall be effectively commercially advertising their product which PPRuNE forbids them to do and I have a hunch that the mods shall be paying particular attention to this.

As with my previous situation it was as if I had been lined up against a wall and the firing squad were taking shots at me that I had no course of defence against, not that many if any of you are likely to listen but that is what you are doing to these people at Ettyl and they are not in a position to defend against you without paying PPRuNe to commercially advertise.

Honestly there are some sharks on here. The guy came on to a public forum and faced the critics (who are faceless and all powerful). Not having specific airline experience does not and should not rule somebody out, though clearly they need an experienced team around them to avoid expensive pitfalls etc.
We've come to a stage where the list of airlines has dwindled substantially and not withstanding the current challenges, there would seem to be few opportunities to viably enter the market. We need (imho) to welcome this development and clearly Eastern are a reputable and safe airline. That gives confidence and supporting a British airline ...

It's also a brave move to get into anything airline amidst this pandemic... so best of luck to those concerned.

Well that might be stretching things a bit!

In any case, it’s perhaps understandable hostility, given relatively recent events, not helped by some elementary mistakes on their website which won’t do anything to boost confidence in the operation.

I particularly liked

About Ettyl

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a9dd420e69.jpg

The comparison with the early stages of easyJet is superficial and not accurate. When the business started, it did not have its own AOC and actually flew on GB Airways’ AOC before moving onto Air Foyle’s.

There was a clear and CAA approved protection structure in place around easyJet when it began, and they had hired a reputable lawyer to advise them on it.

The comparison is valid in so far as you can start without an AOC and it can be done, but that’s about as far as the similarities go.

The days of starting on somebody else's AOC are, for all intents and purposes, dead. Any enquiry to the CAA will make that very clear. As regards the Isle of Man, they don't have their own version of the CAA. All IOM operations are governed by CAA regulations.

If it helps, I booked with them when they initially tried to start up. IOM-MAN. Just one pair of flights. When it didn't happen, they were quite prompt in issuing a full refund. No problem at all.
The Island really does need to drop the Open Skies model. With U2 offering MAN flights daily for three days a week imminent, it will no doubt ruin the Loganair product and lead to no IOM-MAN flights some days or at weekends. EasyJet and an Island that needs frequency and guaranteed service are not a good mix!

Good luck to anyone helping to knock certain politicians into the real world.

EZY did initially show 5 flights a week, I wouldn’t take their current schedule planning anything to go by. Remember we are in the middle of something that airlines can’t control, airlines are trying to make money. With borders effectively closed to the U.K. easyJet won’t make money on daily flights

Yes, but if they can't make money they'll not bother. Daily morning and evening flights to Manchester historically only make money on some days and times of the week. That's the nature of it. If you only come when you make money its as useful as the proverbial chocolate fireguard to the community it proports to serve.

Ettyl have Announced the purchase of Stobart Air and Carlisle Airport this morning

Is it public yet as noting on any news feeds?

https://ettyl.evaske.com/

Apologies, here's the link

The link is not working but I am sure the news will start to filter out across the news networks shortly. Any details on the sale?

Ettyl Limited acquires Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport Following Esken Limited’s announcement to the London Stock Exchange earlier today, Isle of Man-based Ettyl Limited (“Ettyl”) confirms it has signed agreements for its acquisition of Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport from Esken Limited, the aviation and energy infrastructure group, subject to bank consent Stobart Air will continue to operate the existing Aer Lingus Regional franchise that is currently contracted to run through to December 2022 – subject to change of control consent The intention is to retain all staff currently employed by Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport Further announcements regarding Ettyl’s development plans for Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport will be made over the coming weeks and months Commenting on the acquisition, Jason Scales, Managing Director, Ettyl Limited ‘We are delighted to have signed agreements for these acquisitions. In the immediate term it will be very much business as usual in respect of both Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport’s operations and our deal ensures that the great teams within those businesses are retaine We will be making further announcements over the coming weeks and months regarding our plans. Ettyl sees significant opportunities for increased regional connectivity as economies recover from the impacts caused by the pandemic and return to stability across the UK and Ireland.

Alteagod

Aye, looks like its been taken down.

Looks to be website is being updated says coming soon on main page on website, and info page for buying Stobart Air asking now for login

I know we're living in strange times but ............

In an update to market Stobart state it is in "advanced discussions with Ettyl Ltd for the sale of its shareholding in Stobart Air & Carlisle Airport".

It added there can be no certainty an agreement will be reached or the transaction will conclude as it remains subject to contract matters and approvals.