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Navpi 7th Jun 2018 21:33


Excellent piece on the sheer incompetence of Grayling and his sibling.

Navpi 7th Jun 2018 21:45

Jesse Norman has misled the House of Commons by implying the same clauses on bailing out promoters of other airport expansion schemes (i.e Heathrow Hub and Gatwick) were agreed. The bail out clause only featured in Heathrow's agreement. See 10.43 https://t.co/RtLcfTWd35

Heathrow Harry 8th Jun 2018 08:26

Originally Posted by Prophead (Post 10168004)
Navpi, you're clutching at straws now.

The owners of Heathrow have paid millions already towards a project that was approved years ago. This is down to governmental incompetence and political meddling. It costs huge amounts just to plan a project like this and the lifespan of the construction could run over multiple elected governments.

It is right that they should seek compensation should the whole thing suddenly be cancelled or sabotaged for political means. This is not just so HAL can pocket the cash, it's more about being able to pay suppliers and stop those suppliers and contractors going to the wall.

Pparliamentcan change the rules anytime it likes. No govt can bind its successors ...

Rutan16 8th Jun 2018 10:57

We are not talking about the budget sector nor are we talking about holiday charters. When talking about LHR we are generally talking about scheduled services to cities worldwide. Many of which will never be viable from a single regional airport
  • That’s the narrative spun by HAL and some politicians but runs against many of the models in the industry.
  • HAL absolutely want access to the Flexible fares and Leisure business why do you think they are courting Easyjet !
  • BTW contrary to popular believe the majority of footfall is leisure based right now and one thing that I can’t denigh is a significant amount of that leisure traffic is INBOUND O&D into one of the planets largest holidaying destinations just a few miles east!

There is not the infrastructure in the north to support this. Hence taking a shuttle flight to LHR onto a dedicated runway with a good connection setup works better for a large part of the north than slogging it over to MAN. We know people are currently doing just this via AMS instead of travelling through Manchester.

  • The Northern Power House project of the former Chancellor was an attempt to evaluate reason identify and address many of the inequities associated with having a range of high hills through a relatively small area of the North of England and the negative effects that has on opportunity and investment in the wider economy.
  • I can’t dispute the M60/M56 are almost as poor as the M25/M4 corridors and for many similar reasons - they are orbital roads round major conurbations dominated by local traffic.
  • The rail connections are a mess due to incompetence by Network Rail and Grayling and vast over spend in the south east.
  • Just as the debate around the London Orbital needs sorting irrespective of R3 so do the similar issues around Manchester - These issues are for the DFT and will cost millions anyway
  • As for the last part couldn’t care less if some in Yorkshire or Northumberland feel that a flight via Amsterdam is more convenient that a trek over the moors. The number are actually quite small in the scheme of things and it’s their choice how they spend their money . A comparison to consider through Leeds/Newcastle/Durham/Doncaster and Humberside combined for the year 2016 handled 888, 000 combined on the Amsterdam route whilst Manchester handled over million alone in the same period.

With the modern rail network being built and connected to LHR it is the only sensible option. To build Crossrail, HS2 and the western rail link to LHR and then expand LGW instead would be absurd. My view is we should expand both as they both cater for different markets but if it has to be only one then it should be LHR.

Huge investment in a small corner of the UK, ignore the great pupulus at your peril thats why Brexit happened. HS2 is underway for sure (well least phase one) however how does dumping northerners and midlanders in Old Oak Common really benefit them significantly.

The Elisabeth line is more about getting the great unwashed from Essex into Central London and similarly those in Berkshire into the City oh and by the way the major Rail Station that is Euston connects to neither right now.

I generally support the HS2 long term project it will eventually relieve pressure on the existing rail corridors however its far more about the domestic connectivity than enhansing global options. It doesn’t even connect to HS1 directly

What test? The new runway is not built yet. The BA regionals are always the first to be canned when it stacks up at LHR so it isn't accurate to gauge interest in a project that isn't functional yet. I used to use this weekly to get back to Leeds and there were many people using it then and praising it. A handful of flights don't make a hub however.

The test is BA have provided those in Yorkshire an opportunity to connect to the world over Heathrow and yet they aren’t using it period stop

SamYeager 8th Jun 2018 12:40

Semi serious question: is there any estimate of how much the wait in the multiple stacks across the SE is likely to reduce for airliners wishing to land at LHR if R3 is built?

Rutan16 8th Jun 2018 12:54

Originally Posted by SamYeager (Post 10168207)
Semi serious question: is there any estimate of how much the wait in the multiple stacks across the SE is likely to reduce for airliners wishing to land at LHR if R3 is built?

Its not a semi serious question but one of the primary questions to be answered
That said those stacks are about segregated and grouping differing traffic flows onto base leg safely correctly spaced and to maximise landings.
They won’t actually go away even with R3 infact we may see rather more albeit further out over the North Sea to manage traffic flows on approach to the parallel landing runways even capped you could well see an extra 140000 slots created.
Thats an other Birmingham sized airport.
Now where does that traffic come from certainly not entirely organic growth imho, much would be sucked in from other middle sized airports and Gatwick is that in the national interest?

BAengineer 8th Jun 2018 13:31

I for one am sick of the delays - just get on and build the damn thing. And if LGW, STN, MAN, BHX or whoever want more capacity then let them build it as well. It would be better money spent than on HS2

160to4DME 8th Jun 2018 14:42

North West born and bred
MAN based
Fully support this.
Despite the parochial and predictable moaning on here, MAN now has critical mass not to be affected and will ride the wave with LHR growth.
Bring it on; and soon.

Navpi 8th Jun 2018 22:01

Meanwhile away from the playground.


True Blue 8th Jun 2018 22:42

The press seem to be starting to unpick various parts of this cabinet go ahead for the new runway. If they have not been completely above board on this, could it get politically very difficult for the government?

Navpi 9th Jun 2018 05:11

True blue is correct

The press are indeed picking at the carcass of Graylings career , a career going down the pan faster than the effluent emanating from Whitehall and the montain of money for The Thames Super Sewer.

Another Major infastructure project "IN LONDON" which due location is of course of "National Importance".

Thank goodness we do have journalists like John Grace from The Guardian

"Given Gayling’s obvious incompetence the day before on rail it was asking a lot for anyone to believe he had morphed into a functioning human being – let alone a cabinet minister – overnight:

AND Jay Mitchinson from the Yorkshire Post who consistently depicts Graylings Head skewered atop a sluglike snail wandering aimlessly around The North on a decrepid rail network unfit for purpose !

Their savagery is matched only by the gentrified , oh so timid , wishy washy nay pitiful commentary by the BBC London mafia

Laura Kuenssberg
Kamal Ahmed
and John Pienarr

They are of course from "OUR BBC" or msybe" Its Your BBC"

remember that jingle?

...their best efforts at 'telling it like it is" amounted to the suggestion of it being " a difficult week for the The Minister".

..blimey don't hold back Laura !

SWBKCB 9th Jun 2018 08:55

Now where does that traffic come from certainly not entirely organic growth imho, much would be sucked in from other middle sized airports and Gatwick is that in the national interest?
There's no guarantee that the extra slots available will generate any new routes for either regional or global connectivity.

How many new routes would EZY bring? LHR could just become the regional airport for West London, Thames Valley etc, saving them the tedious trek to LGW, LTN or STN for their short breaks.

True Blue 9th Jun 2018 09:15


Maybe sufficient of us over the years have seen all the PR.spin on big projects, how we would all benefit for it later never to materialise.

An extra runway around London has only ever been thought of as being at Lhr as when this idea got serious, BAA owned all the airports around London and were only interested in expanding Lhr as that was their pet project. They had no interest in making Lgw a successful competitor. That idea has never been seriously questioned since.

The airport commission used passenger figures for Lgw that were seriously wrong to try and prove a case. If the case for Lhr expansion is so strong, why were they never told to go away, correct their figures and rerun the report?

When you start out with the answer you want and start to construct a case, as was evident here, you then run into all sorts of problems as people start to see through the lies and deceit.

They will deserve everything they get in terms of flak. All this talk about regional connectivity, they have no idea if that would ever happen or not. Just one example of PR rubbish fed to the masses they think are stupid.

Ringwayman 9th Jun 2018 09:34

Multiple flights per week available from China to Heathrow for years. Barely anyhing economic impact up North. The moment MAN got it's Beijing link, exponential growth in trade and tourism to/from China happened. That is why it's a fallacy to think that an expanded LHR is the answer to the North's socio-economic development. Those northern airports hankering for a London link are just in denial about what is best for their region.

SWBKCB 9th Jun 2018 14:32

Create easier connections to the regions and, as you say, growth follows
Lets see how many of these regional connections actually appear. Sounds like snake oil salesman talk to me.

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