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-   -   Heathrow-2 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599818-heathrow-2-a.html)

Laarbruch72 15th Feb 2018 14:03

It doesn't need to move sideways, if the BA vehicle is moving uncontrolled (with the driver incapacitated), then it could conceivably have strayed into the path of the Ops vehicle in an unpredictable manner. Or it might not have. But you don't know, and you're jumping to a conclusion; A picture of the scene following an accident rarely paints a clear picture of the events leading up to it... Let the police do their job and investigate.

Highway1 15th Feb 2018 15:01

Laarbruch72

Which is precisely why there is a very low speed limit on the maneuvering areas - so that if something (a vehicle or an aircraft ) suddenly cuts across you you can stop in time.

Hotel Tango 15th Feb 2018 15:06

Jetgirl So you base your findings on a post crash photograph which effectively tells you absolutely nothing! I guess you don't know the first thing about accident investigation. And anyway, I am not saying that it isn't the case, I am simply stating that we do not at present have all of the the facts at hand. Therefore, conclusions/allegations such as yours are, I repeat, presently totally unfounded!

Skipness One Echo 15th Feb 2018 15:18


China Southern have filed an application to start WUHAN to LHR effective from 30 May 2018 three weekly with A333-200.
Seems LHR-CAN drops from 10 weekly to daily to compensate.

parabellum 16th Feb 2018 01:37

As mentioned above when there is a fatal accident there has to be a coroners inquest for which a mountain of evidence has to be collected at the scene and this takes time.


If an Ops vehicle has a genuine need to exceed the airport speed limit it might help if, instead of flashing yellow lights, (normal ops), it selected a red/blue combination that tells everyone it is speeding for a genuine purpose.

glad rag 16th Feb 2018 09:41

LlamaFarmer

Good point about differential lighting but would this not require driver training to the requisite standard ie to the same level as the other emergency drivers?

LlamaFarmer 16th Feb 2018 10:16


Originally Posted by glad rag (Post 10054843)
Good point about differential lighting but would this not require driver training to the requisite standard ie to the same level as the other emergency drivers??

Doctors on an emergency call use green lights. They have no training and the green lights offer no privileges to disregard road traffic laws, but are an indication to other road users of the urgency, and for other drivers to give way where possible. (They still have to stick to speed limit and obey all road signs and traffic lights.)

Something similar like that perhaps?
It doesn't necessarily need to be the same level of high speed blue light driving, although yes additional training would never be a bad thing.
It is fine taxiing a plane at 30kts down the taxiway, so if the taxiway is clear it is surely safe for a car to be going down at 50mph, I'd hardly say that would require particularly advanced training.

It's if they'd start doing unexpected things, such as not giving way at the junctions, not sticking to marked roads etc.


Every airside driver knows you give way to moving aircraft, but maybe there needs to be other levels of priority for other vehicles, without making it too complicated.

Where possible and safe we'll always give way (in our aircraft) to emergency vehicles needing to cross the taxiway/apron etc, such as an ambulance going to an aircraft, or police going to somewhere in a hurry. Although ATC Ground controller is usually way ahead of the game there anyway.

But as far as cars/vans/etc go, an emergency (risk to life or of injury) response clearly needs the highest priority. Then urgent airfield ops (such as an urgent runway inspection or FOD clearing) is very time critical and can't take 15 minutes to get to where they need to be waiting for crossings etc (although it's not urgently life-or-death, and if it HAS to be done then they can assure safety by closing the runway and stopping approaches, however this is clearly not ideal, especially at an airport like Heathrow or Gatwick... a few minutes of runway closure can cause backlogs that take the rest of the day to clear and have knock-on effects all around Europe, especially in summer!)

Highway1 16th Feb 2018 11:31


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 10054939)
For me the big question remains: was the cardiac problem pre or post crash? Few seems to want to take that into consideration!

How does that mitigate the speed with which the ops truck t-boned the BA van?. Even if the BA guy suffered the heart attack pre-accident that wouldn't have any affect on the speed of the Ops vehicle. Maneuvering areas are limited to 5 mph for a reason.

LlamaFarmer 16th Feb 2018 11:43

It doesn't.

BUT, do you know what the Ops vehicle was doing and what it was responding to?
Do you know that it didn't have right of way, and reasonably expect the BA van to stop?
Do you know that the BA van even came from a reasonable direction or at a reasonable speed?


That doesn't imply blame on anyones part, but to say it is the Ops vehicles fault purely because if they had been going slower it wouldn't have happened is not the point.

Navpi 16th Feb 2018 11:44

The new Government infastructure guru has today demanded "we get on and build the crumbling UK infastructure". Includes Rw3.

I quite agree but let's nail down all the costs and ramifications given government intervention usually means a doubling of the bill.

Others spokespeople including "experts with actual expertise" are more sanguine!

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/bus...59.article?v=1

Highway1 16th Feb 2018 12:20

Well from the pictures the BA van was travelling along the rear of he maneuvering area and the ops truck was heading for the taxiway in that circumstance the BA van had right of way because the ops truck is supposed to stop and check before entering the taxiway anyway (I know they dont always bother). To anyone who has worked airside at LHR (and any BAA airport) this incident isnt that surprising.

Epsomdog 16th Feb 2018 12:53


Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer (Post 10054812)
Ops have genuine reasons for needing to go quickly, urgent runway inspection, pick up FOD etc. If they were on a urgent task then yes additional different lighting might help a bit more.

Emergency vehicles, Police, Fire and ambulance, with blue flashing lights, on possible life saving response. Obviously need to exceed speed limits, these drivers are trained to a very high standard.

In my opinion Ops vehicles do not fit in this category.

Out on the airfield/runways away from the parking stands, it may be convenient to drive at speed to aid with the operation. However, once they approach congested parking areas, they should abide by all speed limits. Many times I have witnessed Ops vehicles driving recklessly entering parking stands at high speed. They’ve got away with this for years, probably because they’re the ones enforcing driving standards on the ramp.

glad rag 16th Feb 2018 13:17

Exactly.

I have witnessed 3 serious incidents "air side" in 3 different countries.
Each one was a result of rushing where there was no real need and 2 out of 3 resulted in fatalities.

Epsomdog 16th Feb 2018 14:32


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 10054939)
My only concerns were the many assumptions made about the cause of this particular accident. No one, including you, know all the facts. Whilst I very much feel for the unfortunate victim, his family, friends and colleagues, unlike some on here I'm not ready to hang the Ops vehicle driver whilst not knowing all the facts concerning the cause. For me the big question remains: was the cardiac problem pre or post crash? Few seems to want to take that into consideration!

I agree with most of your points. For me the big question is. Which seat was the poor guy occupying? If he was in the pax seat (that seemed to take the brunt) then surely his cardiac condition was irrelevant!

Hotel Tango 16th Feb 2018 16:03

Thank you Epsomdog.


For me the big question is. Which seat was the poor guy occupying?
That question had also occurred to me upon seeing the pictures. however, the following would seem to point to one person per vehicle.


Police and paramedics were called to the scene of the incident shortly after 6am on Wednesday morning, which the airport has said involved two male members of staff.
And that is what made me then wonder if the cardiac condition may have existed pre crash.

Highway1 16th Feb 2018 16:12


Originally Posted by Epsomdog (Post 10055086)
Many times I have witnessed Ops vehicles driving recklessly entering parking stands at high speed. They’ve got away with this for years, probably because they’re the ones enforcing driving standards on the ramp.

And that is the issue - I have never seen a single Ops vehicle in 4 decades in this industry ever be stopped for speeding.

Neil Amrose 16th Feb 2018 17:27

In 35 years at Gatwick( now retired) with Bcal then working in Handling Agents ops control centers, Airfield Ops went from pleasant helpful to just avoid contact if possible.Noticeable when ownership moved from BAA to whatever it's called now.

Spotless 16th Feb 2018 18:22

A couple of years ago a BAA yellow opspatrol (similar model to this accident) vehicle rolled over onto its Heathrow’s ‘F’ ‘B’ ‘R’ taxiway area, no other vehicles involved. Apparently the BAA’s response was “there was a bee in the vehicle causing the driver to loose control”.... the speed it would take to roll a vehicle on a wide taxiway is significant. You only had to sit and watch out the window how fast these BAA vehicles go, airfield ops is not an emergency needing to drive that fast, they’d need to invest in more resources if they’re thinly spread.....On a personal note I got “caught” speeding at LGW airside, 30mph (20mph limit the whole of LGW main roads) on a clear sunny day driving behind empty remote stands with not another vehicle in sight. The yellow peril was probably travelling IRO 70mph with black smoke pouring out across the taxiway to issue my bollocking on the grounds of health and safety..... this sort of incident at LHR could have been predicted by many a LHR airside worker. RIP John Coles.

DaveReidUK 22nd Feb 2018 16:35

Flight operations videos
 
Heathrow has published a set of videos on YouTube describing aspects of its operations (also being shown at the current expansion roadshows):








4Greens 23rd Feb 2018 19:36

Heathrow runway
 
Have been involved in discussions over the building of another runway at Heathrow. I would be interested on the views of ppruners on this very difficult decision.


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