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-   -   Luton-9 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599758-luton-9-a.html)

22/04 21st May 2018 19:35

I am not sure what airbrake is comparing LTN with. Heathrow certainly is little better with aircraft switching from an outside to inner taxiway system- granted the new terminals don't have cul de sacs but T3 still does big time with often a wait after arrival for a stand if there is any slippage in schedules. Gatwick North and holding at west end of 26 there an be a 'mare as well. And building new airports-out of the question- we can't even get a third runway at LHR!

LTNman 21st May 2018 19:42


Why exactly are a/c being tugged out to Delta anyway?
By being tugged to the north half of Delta it then allows an aircraft to enter the eastern apron from the direction of Alpha.

Also worth remembering that Luton has to work with what is has as the basic layout goes back to the 60's If anyone remember life without Echo the main apron was then a culdesac with around 17 stands.

Falcon666 21st May 2018 19:57

I have just been watching the East Apron and of the last four departures from the stands only one tugged out to Delta.
The other three did in fact push and start from the Apron so presumably it has nothing to do with the compound.
Do they only tug out to Delta when a incoming is going to arrive at one of the inner stands (closer to the terminal) -but surely that shouldn't happen that often?

forest 21st May 2018 20:24


Originally Posted by Falcon666 (Post 10153231)
I have just been watching the East Apron and of the last four departures from the stands only one tugged out to Delta.
The other three did in fact push and start from the Apron so presumably it has nothing to do with the compound.
Do they only tug out to Delta when a incoming is going to arrive at one of the inner stands (closer to the terminal) -but surely that shouldn't happen that often?

All stands in East apron are built to push within the Apron albeit St 43 and 43 Lima have to do a non standard long push onto Delta whilst the works compound is on st46. Not sure what will happen after its removed as the piers, now subject to a/c size are 4 a/c stands per pier. Will wait and see.

LTNman 22nd May 2018 09:59

Construction update
 
The first panel has been fitted to the new entrance. Can't yet make out what it is made from until I can get underneath it. The original plan showed a massive grand design but the bean counters won with this compact effort that will keep the glass dry but that is about it. Another mini canopy will run the length of the bus station.
https://i.imgur.com/vaTkLrs.jpg

The Mystery of the wall. What is its purpose? Note the drainage against the wall.
https://i.imgur.com/6Zd2I5M.jpg

The ramp that will carry all traffic.
https://i.imgur.com/GjAncj3.jpg

The subway that will eventually serve the new drop off area plus MS2
https://i.imgur.com/p8xzFpE.jpg

At the top of the ramp an exit is being created to access the first floor of the new multistory as the ground floor will be the drop off area.
https://i.imgur.com/Wj5RA2d.jpg

The new temporary drop off area. Cars will travel around the 5 individual bays on the wrong side of the road. Bollards are started to be installed to keep the traffic on the wrong side of the road
https://i.imgur.com/bxDNxjM.jpg

Traffic has been diverted around the second footbridge and 3rd core which are due for demolition and passes the entrance to the subway meaning it can't open until the road goes back.
https://i.imgur.com/8Z7lVwV.jpg

The new taxiway extension is taking the strain.
https://i.imgur.com/7uEpXRC.jpg

Finally what an airport handling 16 million passengers looks like
https://i.imgur.com/9yvzgnG.jpg

PAXboy 22nd May 2018 12:19


Originally Posted by Buster the Bear (Post 10153210)
The barking mad plan to build a tinminal in a cul-de-sac! I fondly remember the then Airport Director barking at me for my cynicism!

The original plan was of course for an additional tunnel to the north that would have exited along Frank Lester Way. That was design engineered out of the plans for financial reasons. In effect, a circular one way system.

ABSOLUTELY!!! The aspect of life driven by bean counters that I enjoy the most is reflected in the old saying: "Cheap - is Dear". When you cut back on something to save money, almost inevitably, it costs you more in the long run. For the original bean counters - it is a 'Win' as they save money but everyone after them has to spend more to compensate. In this particular case, as the North tunnel would now be VERY expensive, they cannot do it - but have to spend ever more amounts of money to try and offset the original bad choice. The same goes for the link to the railway station, now costing more than it would have done originally.

I appreciate that predictions of numbers were difficult but the short term attitude of modern Britain is writ large across LTN.

LTNman 22nd May 2018 15:25


When you cut back on something to save money, almost inevitably, it costs you more in the long run.
Expect to see in June plans for a new set of taxiways that will go to the ends of the runway as part of the expansion plans to 36 million

ExpectmorePayless 22nd May 2018 16:39

Oh what a disappointing and impractical canopy.
A large glass canopy would have provided a much better finish and protection from the elements.
Can we expect the whinos from Luton town centre to take up residence in the subway underpass ? 😁

Great pictures as always LTNman.

PAXboy 22nd May 2018 17:30

Agreed ExpectmorePayless. A canopy that is purely for show - as it will not protect the pax and their luggage from rain as they get on/off the bus. Another smashing idea.

asdf1234 22nd May 2018 17:45

Is the wall to separate terminal inbound and outbound pax?

LTNman 22nd May 2018 17:51


Is the wall to separate terminal inbound and outbound pax?
No, as there will be a path between the two sets of doors. A staircase is being built across the entrance that will bridge the wall.

Money saved on the canopy will help to pay for the demolition costs of the 2 year old walkway and third core. One can only speculate what it cost to build.

April 2016 shows the span going in. Think it was open for just over a year.
https://i.imgur.com/lFu00Ae.jpg

ExpectmorePayless 22nd May 2018 19:56


The Mystery of the wall. What is its purpose? Note the drainage against the wall.
Is it to funnel all the rainwater from the various canopies and pavements, and send it downhill to finish in a muddy puddle in the subway underpass ? 😁😁😁

Track record isn't good with swimming underpasses and bridges.

LTNman 22nd May 2018 20:34


The barking mad plan to build a tinminal in a cul-de-sac! I fondly remember the then Airport Director barking at me for my cynicism!

The original plan was of course for an additional tunnel to the north that would have exited along Frank Lester Way. That was design engineered out of the plans for financial reasons. In effect, a circular one way system.
Probably designed out as it was a rubbish idea. An additional tunnel would put traffic back on local roads as was the original route back in the 80's. The whole idea of New Airport Way and Airport Way was to take traffic way from local roads and housing estates.

Spanish eyes 22nd May 2018 20:46

I'm thinking it just might have shrunk just a little.
https://i.imgur.com/pPXOA8S.jpg

Scrotchidson 23rd May 2018 08:33


Unfortunately, LTN is not an impressive airport at all. From today’s stats each of those departures will run on average nearly 20 mins late.
The CAA's stats sadly misleads the public into thinking that each airport contributes wholly to those delay stats when we all know various factors are involved.


LTN needs a thorough revamp of procedures
Procedures don't get changed via online forums and I certainly wouldn't go online and announce that an airline needs to change an SOP without knowing the full details behind why it operates in the way that it does. However, I do have good connections with base captains so I tend to speak with them when I can.


auto frequency changes
With the number of calls on the incorrect frequency for clearances in the morning we get I can only imagine how an auto frequency change will go with traffic entering the LTMA on the wrong frequency...


No, LTN ATC management and LTN airport management should be getting a grip of it and going to NATS instead telling us to “turn left, hold A4.” Pause....... “contact ground blah”. ATC may be doing their best but this type of change has to be pushed through by airport managers.
ATC work together with Airport Managers but they do not push through ATC procedures. The guys & gals up there are also a friendly bunch and visits are always welcome from those flying in and out. It's a better way to understand each other.


but the resistance to change shown on this thread is why delays at Luton and operational efficiencies are only going to get worse
Any examples?

Luton's a unique airport and with the current infrastructure and space available it is what it is. Compared to 5 years ago the place has transformed and procedurally has become a lot more efficient but that takes time and man power. New procedures don't get written overnight and money is need to make those efficiencies happen, for example enabling A1, C1, H1, B1 to become CAT III holds. You also need to control the amount of change to protect everyone within the operation because when people make mistakes, not matter what role they are in within aviation, there's always someone holding the safety accountabilities.

22/04 23rd May 2018 15:37

A very good post scrotchidson - I was trying to say much of what you have said but with less inside knowledge I guess.

Do you have any comment on how taxiway foxtrot will work- I see as an aid to allow traffic to be routed in opposite directions, passed and sequenced and allow the occasional push back on to Delta without blocking things - a bit like the inner and outer taxiways at LHR>

cj241101 23rd May 2018 16:13

I'm no expert on ATC procedures but would guess at the following:-

Runway 26 in use. Most if not all outbound traffic from the main and north aprons currently routes clockwise via taxiway Echo then Delta. Once Foxtrot is in use it can then turn left and keep the rest of Delta clear for inbound traffic to the east apron, which currently gets held at Alpha 5 until Delta is clear. The current problem of pushing back on to Delta and facing south will remain as it will still block traffic heading via Delta into Foxtrot. Ideally Foxtrot needs to start where Echo ends except that Harrods hangar 202 and stand 62 are there.
Runway 08 in use. Inbound traffic vacating at Alpha 1 currently taxies inbound via Delta, with a few exceptions during quieter periods, mostly destined for the southern half of the main apron. Foxtrot would permit aircraft from the north and east aprons to still head south via Delta while inbounds routed via Foxtrot. El Al, incidentally, will always taxi in and out via Delta regardless of the aircraft size (767's and 777's aren't permitted to taxi west on Echo in any case due to wing tip clearances).

LTNman 23rd May 2018 16:17

Also is Delta still El-AL 787 friendly? Seems to be a bit of wingtip shrinkage in the last year.

Airbrake 23rd May 2018 16:27

Scrotchidson.

We all know Stats can be used to prove anything. However, LTN & LGW compete very strongly with each other for who has the worst delays.

LTN, needs to “refresh” its procedures. If you want a base managers perspective continue talking to them. They will give you the full company PR bull, and tell you what a great company they work for. If you want some home truths and suggestions go 8nto the crew room for the morning or afternoon reports.

Auto frequency changes. Have you ever wondered why so many clearance calls go out on the wrong freq? It’s a genuine question. Part of the problem is that pre 0600L ground is closed so everything is done on Twr. Then ground opens and twr tells everybody to go to ground for ATC clearances and push, start. Then at some point delivery opens and ground tells everybody to go there. Is it a surprise that at some point somebody hasn’t kept up with the rearranging of the deck chairs? How about opening delivery at 0530L? I know that will never happen because of staffing levels and costs. That is a Luton problem.
Auto frequency changes on departure and when exiting the runway on landing work extremely well at numerous far more complex airports than Luton. Try asking a base Captain for a jump seat on a double AMS and see for yourself how it works.

I’ve been based at Luton a very long time, I’m not holding my breath for any changes.

PS. Today I walked by the white “awning” at the new terminal exit. By Christmas it will be a dirty grey and covered in grime. Who thought that was a good idea?

LGS6753 23rd May 2018 17:44

Article on Wizz at Luton from Anna.aero:

Wizz Air to expand by 18% at its biggest base this year


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