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Flight canceled on Christmas day 2012
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HOWEVER it doesnt really tell you much apart from that there is a decrease of 1.5 million pax over a 5 year period.... The percentage drop at NCL and EMA during the first recession was significantly greater than BRS and LPL, why? Then the period afterwards at NCL and EMA was flat where BRS has had year on year growth, why? There are many influencing factors, but could it be as simple as the people pulling the strings not doing as good a job as their counterparts in other parts of the country? profit margins are less at these airports.?? |
"From the travelling publics point of view I'm not even remotely interested in what their margin is. I want cheap flights and more choice, other airports are doing a better job of this than NCL, why?"
Well, as a local council tax payer, I am more interested in the mgmt at NCL strengthening the financial position of the airport, based on sustainably profitable air services (and they seem to be achieving that). The previous volume growth to over 5m came during a period of management that saddled the airport with huge debts (and gained the management personal fortunes), that has required a substantial re-financing at council tax payers expense and revenue loss. |
There are many influencing factors, but could it be as simple as the people pulling the strings not doing as good a job as their counterparts in other parts of the country? The North East has always been one of the poorest areas of the country and the economy has been hit here harder and longer, so the dip at NCL has been harder and longer than at comparable airports. The relative performance of the respective airport managements might have a marginal effect, but it basically comes down to how much money people have to spend. I recall reading some time back that to support all the concessions at NCL then pax no.'s of c. 5M pax were mooted. It can only be a matter of time before sustained reduced no.'s at nearer 4M begin to impact on the pax experience. Independent holiday operators used to use there own planes at NCL 5 years ago. over the last few years these charters have disappeared and they have chartered seats on TOM,TCX etc. However this summer see's the start of these returning. We have A3,OHY and others this summer and hopefully this will cont in the next few years to come. what did BRU carry 5 years ago compared to the last 12 months of operation at ncl?? also can we get the figures for DXB and LHR, AMS for the last 5 years. EK is doing very well... |
I am more interested in the mgmt at NCL strengthening the financial position of the airport Each to their own, I want my flight to be cheaper then I'll fly more. I suspect that will be the general consensus of opinion on Northumberland Street too. NCL has been harder and longer than at comparable airports. |
Hi all. Quite new to pprune so try not to kick off.
With regards to the falling pax numbers and airlines pulling out, here's a few ideas of mine: 1) El Al - maybe a 3 times weekly flight, 738? I know a few Jewish people who live in the Gateshead area, and they say their community are crying out for a direct link to Israel. 2) EK twice daily - saw on here that EK want to go 2x daily NCL. Either a 77W/A350 combo or both flights A350 with the 2nd flight arriving around 1800 and departing at 1945. There's obviously demand for the flight since its doing so well. 3) USA flights - We need a USA link. I know AA scrapped it, but that was due to poor advertising. Maybe a UA flight to Newark, possibly 763? If that's to big maybe a 752/753? Thank you MNJ1 |
Here is some good news regarding the KL AMS services they have added a additional service between NCL and AMS!! Nice to see the AMS route going from strength to strength! Hopefully AF will upgrade to a A318 sooner or later?
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Story from the Journal:
NEW flights between Newcastle International Airport and Amsterdam have been announced for the summer. KLM Royal Dutch Airlines will operate the route, boosting its number of flights to 35 a week to the Dutch capital. This comes in addition to 19 weekly flights already offered by Air France between Newcastle and Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris. Henri Hourcade, general manager UK Ireland at Air France and KLM, said: “Air France and KLM have a strong presence in Newcastle and this additional frequency is a direct response to customer demand. “Despite the challenging economic climate, we’re committed to giving travellers greater flexibility and widest choice of medium and long-haul destinations. “For us, it is about supporting regional aviation so we can make travel easier and more convenient.” Passengers travelling on any of the linking 54 weekly flights connecting Newcastle to the rest of the world will experience hassle-free and fast connections via convenient hubs in Amsterdam Schiphol or Paris Charles de Gaulle airports. Schiphol was voted Best Airport in Europe at the Business Traveller Awards in 2012 for the 13th consecutive year and Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport started an action plan last year called Hub 2012, which include terminals refurbishment, new buildings, and branding improvements. |
Hi, Mnj1
All of what you have said are good points. 1. El Al, due to most of them being orthodox Jewish, most will likely only fly El Al, however I think 1/2 weekly will be more likely, but not any time soon. 2. Simple case of when, not if, considering Emirates said that if NCL keep growing like it is until year end, they will go 2 daily in 2015. I would expect a 77E(if they still have them)/77L or even A345 to start and then we'll probably end up 2 daily A350 by 2018-ish. 3. Again, when not if, however this one has been a bugger for the airport. If we get it, our only chance will be a x4/5 weekly 752 from UA, which is probably for the best as they have the best transatlantic 757 experience, AVOD etc. A TK service has also been speculated, but unless you can hold your breath until about 2015/16... I wouldn't. Our next new routes will more than likely be from Jet2. Hopefully they keep their promise of expansion to 8 based A/C next year. I can't see EZY expanding although I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong and finally, what NCL needs is more EU city routes... plenty of potential for both LS, EZY, BE etc etc etc there |
Absolutely correct re AMS, the 35 flights is just the 5 x daily summer increase the same as 2012.
If the press really want to write a newsworthy article they should pick up on the possible loss of the Gatwick route. |
What about TOM launching some new holiday routes as well.
1) Maldives - MLE is only served by 2 UK airports on a not so regular scale. Maybe a 1 or 2x weekly 767 service in the summer, with the potential to upgrade to the 787. 2) St Maarten - I absolutely love St Maarten. The only issue is that there is no direct service from the UK, you have to do it on a expensive full service airline via AMS or CDG. So for the summer season, similar to the above, why not try a 1x weekly 767 service on a saturday, again with 787 upgrade potential. |
1) El Al - maybe a 3 times weekly flight, 738? I know a few Jewish people who live in the Gateshead area, and they say their community are crying out for a direct link to Israel. 2) EK twice daily - saw on here that EK want to go 2x daily NCL. Either a 77W/A350 combo or both flights A350 with the 2nd flight arriving around 1800 and departing at 1945. There's obviously demand for the flight since its doing so well. 3) USA flights - We need a USA link. I know AA scrapped it, but that was due to poor advertising. Maybe a UA flight to Newark, possibly 763? If that's to big maybe a 752/753? What about TOM launching some new holiday routes as well. 1) Maldives - MLE is only served by 2 UK airports on a not so regular scale. Maybe a 1 or 2x weekly 767 service in the summer, with the potential to upgrade to the 787. 2) St Maarten - I absolutely love St Maarten. The only issue is that there is no direct service from the UK, you have to do it on a expensive full service airline via AMS or CDG. So for the summer season, similar to the above, why not try a 1x weekly 767 service on a saturday, again with 787 upgrade potential. I know that shy bairns get nowt and God loves an optimist, but a lot of this reads like a trip round Fantasy Island. :ok: |
Think you will find Thomsons are pulling out of Maldives as hoteliers have become greedy. As for St. Maarten dream on if you think can be done from Newcastle as if it won't work from LGW/MAN it won't work anywhere else. A number of people on this thread do no need to smell the coffee and be more realistic about what can be achieved in this market at present. Newcastle has done very well given its catchment. KLM is an increase in capacity this summer with more EMB190 aircraft I believe with restoration of the summer fifth daily flight. Certainly very busy on my recent trip.
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A number of people on this thread do no need to smell the coffee and be more realistic |
So for the summer season, similar to the above, why not try a 1x weekly 767 service on a saturday, again with 787 upgrade potential. St Maarten is niche, any UK service would start with a London link which is lacking, so NCL has no chance. |
Re the KLM story in the Journal... I'm going off on a tangent here , but this is part of a wider problem where a lot of what we read in newspapers -especially local ones - these days isn't actually news but PR (big difference). Instead of going looking for stories they are quite happy to be spoon fed stories by the PR departments of large companies. The co I work for is a good example.
Any regular reader of the Journal & Chronicle could be forgiven for thinking that not a single route has been dropped from NCL, ever! Anyway, rant over. I'm off for a lie down. carry on;) |
Unemployment figures
There's are answer
BBC have just reported that unemployment in the north east has risen again. It states that the northeast is now one of the HIGHEST unemployment rates in the uk with 1 in 10 people out of work!! |
Emirates said that if NCL keep growing like it is until year end, they will go 2 daily in 2015. I would expect a 77E(if they still have them)/77L or even A345 to start and then we'll probably end up 2 daily A350 by 2018-ish.
The only reason Newcastle now have the 77W is because Emirates are retiring their Airbus 340/330 fleet (as you probably know). Now if you look at the figures for Newcastle compared to all the other Aerodromes, you can see why they waited as long as they could to 'upgrade' it, Why would they wait 5 years to put the triple onto NCL when they could've done it after 2 or 3? 220 PAX (average) for both flights EK35 and EK36 is poor the average, should be nearing 500, if you want to start calling the route successful. The only reason I could see Newcastle ever getting a second daily is because of Cargo, PAX for EK out of Newcastle is simply extra commission, Trust me. That is why they wouldn't ever send a 777F, Choose between cargo or PAX, or have both, A lot of people around NCL seemed to have this brainwashed idea that Newcastle Airport is the be all and end all, but Hey ho that's my opinion what can I say afterall You don't get to see figures like I do. Thanks Falcon900LX |
Jet2 S14
In addition to Reus and Ibiza frequncy increase, Alicante increases to 10 x weekly, double daily tuesday, thursday and saturday. Palma also up to 10 x weekly. Still a lot to be uploaded I guess though |
Grahamk
Thanks for the update yes I'm sure that jet2 have more too add Hoping they may add Bulgaria ? Thomson and Thomas cook both adding flights too Small increases each year is what we are after. |
Falcon900LX,
What do you mean by needs to be 500 average to call the route successful? Bit difficult when the aircraft serving the route has 428 seats or do you mean to say current average is 110 each way which adds up to 220? Just wonder what figures you may have seen? Something does not add up. GAXLN |
FA90X The average for March's DXB both flights was 570pax?????
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EK figures
Well that shows that the route had out grown the airbus and the 777 was now needed???
Another 2 years then we may need a second flight as it states that the plane holds 428 once the flight starts hitting 400 daily then you do need to start thinking about adding an extra daily flight |
GOOD GOD!
Falcon900LX - FINALLY someone with some sense in this forum. What was it Kenneth Clarke said about UKIP? 'Send In The Clowns?' No need Kenneth, just look at this forum, plenty of clowns on here. You lot going on about EL AL flights, second EK flight to DXB etc need to sit down and ask some serious questions about yourselves and your sanity. WAKE UP you idiots! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: |
People can't speculate? Discuss what they'd like because miserable gits like you would rather sit and be a keyboard warrior with smarmy put downs?
So what if its pie in the sky stuff? At least its encouraging debate and exposing questions about how the airport is going about things which as locals, people have a literal vested tax paying interest in On a side note, this Jewish community, I assume they use connections at the moment for things like Passover holidays etc? Must be someone getting all their business |
CaptainAdams : No need for the tone you adopt here. I suggest you may wish to edit your derogatory comments and allow views on routes to be discussed on their prospective merits.
I doubt, before the launch of Emirates service to Dubai, - many, if any! would have taken speculation on such service seriously and may have made similar commentary to your tone on EL AL to Israel or USA flights. Personally I doubt a service will commence to Israel, but due to the extensive security at airports demanded by the Israeli govt. and undercover armed security personnel on all of their flights due to the increased risks. New York should and probably will happen - I believe the obstacle is not viability in terms of pax or freight, but the routes via all accessible hubs : (LHR,CDG,AMS,FRA,etc...) are dominated by codeshare partners of legacy US airlines feeding from BA,AF,KLM,LH, etc... being members of Oneworld, Star, Skyteam etc... |
WAKE UP you idiots! |
Captainadams... Looks like u have upset a lot of people!!
I bet 5 years ago you were one of the many people that said the daily Dubai would never work?? As it has been stated many times before on here yes it may not happen tomorrow or next week but one day Newcastle will gain the routes that it needs.. New York will happen its just the right airline at the right time.. I believe that if American or united did start the route summer only next year say 5x weekly I think they would be shocked at the amount of pax willing to use it... However as said which airline is will to take that gamble?? None at the minute and yes it will hit other hubs mainly KLM? Only time will tell..... To the rest of you let's start a new rumour?? I'm going to say we need a link to Russia?? |
New York will happen its just the right airline at the right time.. I believe that if American or united did start the route summer only next year say 5x weekly American are withdrawing the transatalantic B757 operation completely are they're not going to start NCL with a B767-300ER. Continental started the whole regional game with the B757 in the UK but they're now merged with the airline that had one UK destination in the last 19 years. I can't think of another route either carrier serves less than daily in summer across the pond. Why should it start? The UK is already up to it's ears in loss making regional airports chasing lower and lower yields. Emirates are miracle workers but there's a finite market and they did well at GLA by stealing market share from BA, KL and BD. That was already a bigger pond to fish in and GLA was achieving much higher load factors than NCL is before it got a second gig. The best example is BHX which has ground to a halt at 2 x B77Ws from EK and a single UA B757. The market is right sizing after a growth bubble which outside the major airports is unsustainable. |
It's interesting to see that many people share my view, Newcastle is and forever will be ( In my eyes ) a 3 - 4 Million Pax airport, Solely because of the surrounding dromes
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I don't want to cause more argument, but a few points.
1. EK themselves have said they want 2 daily to NCL if it expands more this year. 2. They must see something as they proved at the end of last year while a couple of 77W's were in for maintenence that they have spare 77L's available to operate the route if needs be, yet they still use the 77W. 3. EK is (reportedly) carrying an average of 250 pax per flight, 500 per day and Business is reportedly selling well. I'll try and get the load info in August when I next travel on them Also regarding El Al I can see the extra security being a problem and to answer someone's query about religious festivals. I would assume that due to them being orthodox they will drive to LTN/LHR and take the daily (except Saturday) 763/772 from LTN or 744 from LHR. Bearing in mind that Gateshead also has the largest Talmudical College in Europe... Finally, from previous experience, if TOM were to start NCL-SXM it would likely be significantly more expensive than flying AF/KL or BA/AA etc. And the same case for the Maldives, looking in previous years it had been approximately £2800 for 3 adults return on Emirates from NCL and about £6000 for 3 adults return from LGW. Although I want to see NCL do well, I think they need to excercise caution, as said before, small yearly increases is good. |
I'm all for sensible debate without any cheap digs, but I have to agree with captain_adams...
Some of the routes mentioned are wish lists of individuals and not serious money making opportunities for for an airline. Don't forget the pax numbers are reducing and as someone has already pointed out the North East has the highest unemployment in the country. If you think of the more sensible suggestions or the routes we've had and couldn't sustain... Milan, Madrid, Berlin, Brussels, Hamburg and Toronto - what chance have the others got. |
Selected April stats:
Copenhagen: 1424 Paris CDG|: 11811 -26% Dusseldorf: 2805 -21% Dublin 11640 -15% Amsterdam 30420 +29% Stavanger 2144 +1% Dubai 16596 +29% average load of 64.6% based on a 428 seater every day (works out at an averag load of 276 pax per flight - i.e. if the A332 was still operating, just under 100% loads) Gatwick 6607 -6% Heathrow 39898 -2% Overall: 324492 during the month, an increase of 3.1%. Last 12 months 4.36m, an increase of 0.7% |
EK also have a lot of new aircraft to keep busy - and they are in some ways a LCA for international - I can see them going to 2 flights a day if only for the connecting traffic - quite a few people go Newcastle - South Africa via Dubai now - it's longer but a lot cheaper than going via LHR
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I think the issue in this forum as the moment is people thinking they are experts. I work in the airport business, and a lot of what's getting mentioned on here is untrue.
1). Why oh why are people so obsessed with Emirates? Yes it's our only scheduled long haul flight, but do we constantly have to blow smoke up their behind. It's not a glittering success story, and not a complete failure, but it's hardly consistent. Many a time have I seen NCL loadsheets of an EK 777 with LESS than 100 people on board. That's poor. Also, please READ articles. EK have expressed interest in a 2nd daily PROVIDING LFs etc increase. So people saying 'they will' and 'they are' are adding fuel to the fire. 2). USA flights - since when were these a case of 'when not if'. AA cancelled before start. CO scrapped BRS etc. DLs European hub is AMS, with strong links to NCL. They fill almost all flights daily, so why (using DL as an example here) would a US airline launch flights to NCL which would never regularly be full, when they can link to Hubs, fill planes and make ££, which is all airlines care about. 3) EL AL Etc, no chance. Come on guys, lets be realistic when it comes to NCL. |
Hi all!
Does anyone know why Ryanair do not have a base in NCL, or if there are any plans for one in the future? Surely it would be profitable even with Jet2 and a diminishing Easy Jet presence. |
Why is it sure to be profitable? RYR have tried a number of routes through NCL and withdrawn, so I think if they thought they could make money here, or more precisely, more money than another base, they would be doing (there, that should get a NCL base by the end of the year...:ok:).
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I think the issue in this forum as the moment is people thinking they are experts. I work in the airport business, and a lot of what's getting mentioned on here is untrue. 1). Why oh why are people so obsessed with Emirates? Yes it's our only scheduled long haul flight, but do we constantly have to blow smoke up their behind. It's not a glittering success story, and not a complete failure, but it's hardly consistent. Many a time have I seen NCL loadsheets of an EK 777 with LESS than 100 people on board. That's poor. Also, please READ articles. EK have expressed interest in a 2nd daily PROVIDING LFs etc increase. So people saying 'they will' and 'they are' are adding fuel to the fire. 2). USA flights - since when were these a case of 'when not if'. AA cancelled before start. CO scrapped BRS etc. DLs European hub is AMS, with strong links to NCL. They fill almost all flights daily, so why (using DL as an example here) would a US airline launch flights to NCL which would never regularly be full, when they can link to Hubs, fill planes and make ££, which is all airlines care about. 3) EL AL Etc, no chance. Come on guys, lets be realistic when it comes to NCL. |
Emirates
Centrefix25
We all know that they arent going to fill every seat daily on the flight. We know that some days during the week there is under 200 pax onboard but some days there is over 400.... This shows that they need the bigger aircraft for certain days of the week. Emirates are aware that some days they could use the smaller aircraft but for operational reasons its easier to just use the one type. What EK are doing is maximising the route making sure they can offer the seats as per demand to ensure pax can travel through there hub and not LHR or AMS!!!!! What EK are stating that is if pax figures contiune to rise and last month shows 26% year on year than what they are meaning is that some days will be full and some pax could if another flight isnt on sale start to travel via AMS or LHR.... You have stated that you get to see the load sheets?? Can you not tell us by spilt what days or how many days during april there was over 300 pax onboard i.e 10 days - 100-150pax per flight 10 days- 150-300pax per flight 10 days over 400 per flight ?????? Also if the aircraft goes out full of pax then is any of the cargo off loaded until the next day?? as for the report on airline routes it still states they are after a link to the East and they had a better case for the route than dubai????? |
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