Brian,

From 1970 the airport has grown continually both physically and in terms of passenger numbers. From then until the late 1990s, in many senses it was a building site with an attached runway yet the passenger experience - and that of the airlines - was generally pleasant.

At a meeting I attended in 1983 with airport management, politicians, tourism professionals and airline representatives (both operators at MAN and not) the attendees could only come up with one substantial complaint about the passenger experience viz: only one bank, (Midland Bank) and only open normal banking hours. Apart from that the airport, which was winning award on top of award and seeing continuous passenger growth, was held up a a shining example of how an international airport should be run - and not only at that meeting.

In 1993 I had my company run an Airports Environment Conference in the then brand new T2 with a major trade magazine and, whilst the airport supplied speakers and a little hospitality, they were not sponsors..

With representation from over 100 major airports around the world, including all of those you name, the magazine took the trouble to survey the delegates for their view of the airport in areas ranging from environment to use of space, passenger experience (over 90% of the delegates flew into the airport, many of the rest used the brand new station) amenities and the general ambience.

In all areas it scored in in the top two out of eight ratings from poor, through acceptable to exemplary. The written comments many appended were summed up as "glowing".

Putting Manchester down by referring to it in the following terms:
shows either a lack of research or just pure prejudice.

As of the end of 2008 with reduced passenger numbers, it was the fourth busiest airport in the UK with 21.2 million passengers. No "regional" UK airport comes near.

It had the third highest movements of all UK airports and, in 2007 - the last year for which I have figures - it was the 22nd busiest airport for international passengers in the world - it had reached 17th in 2005.

The percentage of scheduled passengers as opposed to IT and GA passengers rose from around 40% in 1992 to 63% in 2007 and Manchester still offers more destinations and direct routes than any other single UK airport.

If it is a regional, it is ahead of any other regional in Europe in terms of numbers and facilities.

It's a lot more than that I'm afraid. In terms of passenger experience, in the past - say up to the late 1990s - extensions, reworking and maintenance were done with the minimum disruption to passengers. Signing was comprehensive, explicit and showed what was where. The terminals were light, airy, had plenty of seating and outside views both before and after security. There was a good range of shops, banking facilities had been upgraded and the hours changed to suit the passenger but the facilities were far from the current "in your face" obstruction they form today.

Then certain layers of management started to retire changing the way the airport was run.

The founding of MAG in 2001, whilst from one perspective can be viewed as a logical business decision, from another can only be viewed as a disaster from the point of view of Manchester Airport itself. The focus shifted from making profits through providing access to air transportation to making profits from a range of diverse and sometimes unconnected business activities.

What real benefit are Bournemouth and Humberside to the local councils in the erstwhile Greater Manchester when the airport which was once the jewel in the crown of the City and then the County is, from a passenger's point of view, an ugly mess of security, shopping malls and uncomfortable holding areas?

EMA has seen success as a freight centre - so has Manchester - but the debt incurred and used to buy EMA could have been better spent at MAN, extending the rail line to the World Freight Centre and offering a truly multi modal centre, using the expertise in freight handling to attract operators (including those at EMA) and give employment to the citizens of the stakeholder local authorities.

I would dispute that Manchester needs a strong home airline. Boston, Vancouver, Los Angeles, Miami, Dusseldorf, Milan, Munich, have all prospered in recent years without a strong, home based carrier by attracting a range of operators serving a wide variety of routes - often with two or more in direct competition.

The management at MAN need to use the current downturn to draw breath and rethink their strategies. They made the wrong decision about LCCs and have seen traffic (mine included) both drift away and cease to grow as the "new" travellers have used, particularly, Liverpool.

T1 is, as far as I'm concerned, depressing, .T2 has not been regularly upgraded. At 16 years old, were it an hotel, it would have just had its third revamp and T3 is a cramped joke - the old domestic pier was a far more enjoyable experience.

I well remember the doom and gloom of 1973/4 - but the traffic bounced back.. 1981/2 saw similar times as did the early 1990s. 9/11 wasn't as bad but each time the airport grew in the aftermath.

This time the challenges are bigger but I'm not convinced the management is aviation minded and focussed enough to benefit from the end of recession when it eventually comes, in the same way as in the past.

In fact, freight and the viewing park apart, I'm at a loss to credit them with anything new that the current directors have overseen from start to finish that has REALLY worked since the inception of MAG.

I agree with much of what you say, it is very true.

I quite like T1, I have to say. Now that the renovation is closer to being complete it looks very nice, modern and comfortable. It is a shame the seating area is in such a dark corner though. This is the terminal I use most often and I have seen a huge improvement over the past 12 months, in terms of the experience. There are short security queues, plenty of check-in space and the layout is reasonably logical now the renovation is closer to completion.
T2, I don't use, so I can't comment, really.
T3 is a horrible place, I avoid it wherever possible and the current shuttle-bus or hike is a joke. I can only hope that there is something planned for that area, the food/snack options are a joke.

But, in general, you can arrive by train reliably at MAN, there are no terrible delays due to congestion and there are a wide variety of destinations to choose from. What MAN has suffered from is that no legacy or network airline has dedicated a hub and spoke model from there, at least in any long-term strategic way. I suppose this makes MAN a spoke in itself and thus MAN has to compete with other airports for each flight, thus driving down the money made from each flight. Mind you, LGW and the Scottish airports suffer from the same problem, so I wonder if LGW would actually bring anything new to MAG.

Brian.

Not used T1 for 12 months but will be through there in June so hope to see a vast improvement.

Hlx/tui/ab
 

With Air Berlin taking over TUI Fly (HLX) Loco city flights from this years winter schedule, does anyone have any idea if Air Berlin will keep on the Cologne & Stuttgart routes ex MAN ? Lets hope so, esp as AB allow you to connect onwards rather than the point to point of HLX.

Noticed a PK had a full emergency divert last night around 2230. Watched it land and I must say it was rather eventful. Landed on 05L And used every bleedin foot of runway available to him! Must have been still doing well over 80 knots past stand 50! Wasn't so certain he would get it reeled in on time, but well done he did! The a310 doesn't seem to stop so well whilst heavy and on one engine!

In other news, the "staff deli" remains overpriced and is not staying to the officially announced opening hours of 0700-1800. There's a shocker!

Pk A310
 

Came in with one engine out, and so I guess could not use reverse thrust due to assymetric effect, hence longer roll out.

Manchester - 7
 

by the time he was level with stand 50 he was still motoring along, blue lights in hot pursuit! . . definately sounded a bit 'odd' whilst taxiing in. . .

staff 'deli' not opening at advertised hours? how odd! They will do the old B.R trick of opening it only at times when no-one can get to it (Operational staff of course) and then using under-use as an excuse to close it!!!

T-M-D

The PK A310 last night was the PK776 LBA/ISB. Given AP-BEC was damaged at LBA by ground handling impact, diversions due fog/Xwinds and now this I can see PK moving these flights back to MAN. They have not had a great start ex LBA. Flights all seem to be full though.

Anyone know what happened to the pax?

I wouldn't be too sure about PIA moving all the flights from LBA to MAN. Why would they increase flights at LBA just to move them back. Pasengers that are using the LBA service do so because they don't want to be traveling from Yorkshire over to MAN. Yeah there are some operating problems at LBA due to runway length and that it is affected by fog in Winter more often than most other UK airports due to its height above sea level but damage to ac by ground handling vehicles can happen at any airport!

Having taken off from LBA presumably lost power in flight? Have we got a true story as to what happened after takeoff?

I bet the A310 was like a 'Flying Brick' going along 05L - STOP!!

PIA had an excellent start at LBIA, I think for the first few months
incident - free alot of the inbounds were at least 35 mins early.

The Balkan 154's always floated over the 'PAPI'S' and landed half-way down the runways and still stopped safely!!

One major "gripe" with MAN...
I arrive for work [shifts] at 0615, 1345 and 2145, and have to use either the stairwell from T1 CP, or the lift from level 5...not a problem. What IS the problem?
It's the "Security Staff" blatently puffing away on their fags... in a clearly marked "NO SMOKING area". [Either on the balcony from level three to the stairwell, or just by the lift to level 5/arrivals corridor]
You say something to them, and it's "Sod off....", and if you dare to say anything whist wearing a MAPLC ID card......It's "I've got your name sunshine, and don't you forget it".

report it higher up.

Get their names off their passes too! Does the level 3 balcony still stink of p?

Funnily enuf, a colleague did this. For a couple of "Dry" days, the "said" areas were clear....but come the rain.......
Having said that,
Why the chuff should "Fare paying Pax" endure a "hike" [usually in the wet], (after all it is Manchester) from the Station, T1 car park, etc to Terrminal 3....and vice versa...... eg
I've just arrived from the US....[as a US Citizen] and I have been "advised" that there is a Direct Train Service into Manchester....
What are my...
a, First impressions, and
b, my recommendations to my friends, when I get home?
"Best Airport in the World"...........:{:ugh:

March 2009 Traffic
 

Pax - 1,359,056 down 18.42% (or 296k less than March 2008)
Movements - 14,180 down 14.53% (or 2,410 less movements than March 2008)
Freight - 8,874 down 38.35%
Pax Rolling 12m - 20.4m !
Pretty Grim

As you know Air Berlins, you are bound to have this service withdrawn. All routes but Paderborn have been stopped. And Paderborn is only kept on due to contracts with the Army.

BHX5DME

Getting to be more like a 'regional' airport with every
passing month!

MM

Dont panic
 

The drop in the statistics mentioned are in line with almost all of the UK airports, including those down south, it is not particular to Manchester.

Manchester is still the premier UK airport outside the London catchment area and will continue to be so.

It is not immune the economic downturn.

My money is on strong growth in 18 months time.


Centre cities

Pax figures are likely to be downward for a while longer yet - the scheduled side of things was down around 12% in March, with charter pax down 30%. We still have a 4 months of summer flying when XL would have been carrying large amount of pax and a reduced combined fleet of First Choice and Thomson. So I'd imagine a bare minimum 20% to 25% fall in numbers for charters. There's also a bit of a hit to be taken on long-haul scheduled to look forward to. On the plus side, we have the mythical extra 300,000 pax from Ryanair to look forward to this year plus the 3rd U2 A320 from May, plus suggestions that a 4th one is due in winter?

Haha, Rowena got out at the right time. Good girl!

What's the difference between Geoff Muirhead and Gordon Brown?

Nothing: unelected, unwanted, past his retirement date, presiding over decline and dithering. Come the revolution...

What are you babbling about MS?

GB was elected MP for the Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath seat with 58% of the vote.

In the UK we do not 'elect' prime ministers we elect MPs who are then elected by their party to be top MP. (agreed not necessarily in that order). ;)

All the parties do it, end of. :ugh:

Before you ask, no I do not agree with many of the current government policies, but I'm sick to death of hearing the same old tired "he wasn't elected' cobblers from the Daily Liar reading brigade.

Not babbling, comparing.

Not elected to the position of Prime Minister, i.e. when chosen to lead the Labour Party (by intimidating the other potential candidates not to stand) he should have then called a General Election to let the electorate have their say. He bottled it at that point, and has persisted in leading us further down a garden path of his choosing, still without allowing the British (in fact mostly English, but I won't go there) people to have their say on whether they want him to, or not.

Like Geoff, chosen by a cabal of councillors, yet the majority stakeholders in the PLC, which these days are the banks, are given no say. Ditto the staff or customers, though I accept they rarely get a say in any other organisation either.

More importantly, they're both leading their respective organisations down the toilet without anyone being able or willing to stop them.

Rowena=Blair - can read the wind and got out in time with reputation intact (ish). :D:D:D

Momentary lapse, or should that be Permanent lapse?

From the MAG website:

Our shareholders are:
The Council of the City of Manchester - 55%
The Borough Council of Bolton - 5%
The Borough Council of Bury - 5%
The Oldham Borough Council - 5%
The Rochdale Borough Council - 5%
The Council of the City of Salford - 5%
The Metropolitan Borough Council of Stockport - 5%
The Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council - 5%
The Trafford Borough Council - 5%
The Wigan Borough Council - 5%

Seems to me that comes to 100% - so how do you arrive at the following:

and what sort of lunatic would give any bank any say in a business today?

I hold no brief for the way the airport is currently managed, but you are babbling.

There is a difference between Stakeholder and Shareholder.
:rolleyes:

BHX5DME

Getting to be more like a 'regional' airport with every
passing month!

MM

MickyMan,

How would you define regional ????

Ta

Manofman

Not capital

MM

So by that definition Frankfurt is a regional airport then?

It is an airport of a region in Germany not
being a capital city.

MM

Cargocat said:

Ever heard of teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?

Any stake the banks have would be in the form of loans. Those loans do not (and should not) allow them to have a say in the running of an "arms length" local authority owned operation.

The other "stakeholders" are, in fact, the airport's customers - leasing space, buying gate and ramp time or providing the airport with an on site service - none of whom have, or should have, a say in the running of the company.

If the shareholders aren't doing a good job of overseeing the way the company is managed, it is up to the council tax payers in the Metropolitan Boroughs to have their councillors take up the matter and for the so called stakeholders (customers) to complain or vote with their feet.

I would suggest you read your own post before trying to belittle anyone.

My Grandmother was well off enough as not to resort to sucking eggs, She employed her own egg suckers.:mad:

You posted the make up of the shareholders of MAPLC whereas the comments were about the stakeholders which due to the level of borrowings by MAPLC includes the banks.

As for babbling you seem to take the top spot.

Good day to you Sir

Thankyou Cargocat.

I specifically referred to stakeholders not shareholders for a reason.

It has been known for years that the shareholders have no teeth, happy to take the dividends without any real governance.

Once MAPLC mortgaged its debt-free business to buy EMA and BOH by over 100% of MAN's capital value, the banks rightly insisted on a say in how the company was run. They did this principally by replacing the existing FD with Philip Ridal, a City of London type, who would bring some semblance of competence to the previously amateurish corporate governance standards.

The other stakeholders (tenants, airlines, retailers etc.) absolutely have a say in how the company is run, not least because their own businesses depend on MAN being run well. Never mind the council tax payers: many of them only fly once a year, if at all, and some of them have no idea how a company should be run.

Following my own logic, perhaps the way forward for MAPLC is for the councils to sell their shares to airlines, retailers etc. who might have more idea how to run it well, not to mention a business-led motive to do so. Just a thought.

Momentary collapse

'They did this principally by replacing the existing FD with Philip Ridal, a City of London type, who would bring some semblance of competence to the previously amateurish corporate governance standards.'


.........and he's doing a bloody good job too!!

You forgot to add?

MM

I deliberately didn't add it, because although he did a damn fine job while he was there (specifically improving the company's debt rating, allowing their interest rate to be significantly lowered, reducing costs) he left a long time ago, lured back to the bright lights of the big city. A loss to the company, certainly.

mickyman...

Just to clarify, you are saying that the likes of Atlanta, New York, Chicago, Houston, Shanghai etc etc are all regional airports.....and if thats the case your first comment of :

Getting to be more like a 'regional' airport with every
passing month!

is total $hite !!! because by your reasoning it always has been and always will be a regional airport, coz Manchester aint the captial of England.

Unless i am getting confuddled !!!

Manofman

You are

MM

Nice reply MM, well thought out, good points and a fantastic argument....just what i have come to expect from such an informed poster....again...well done.

Manchester cannot be compared with New York, Atlanta, Houston, Shanghai or even Munich. These are hub airports. Nobody hubs at Manchester anymore it is a "Spoke" for BA, KLM, Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss, Emirates, Qatar, Continental et al.

Manchester is a regional airport, a major one at that. Remember that the above airports do not have the high proportion of charter or lo-cost passengers that Manchester has.

wow...come on kids!
 

Jeez..what's going on on here recently, it's all sniping.
Anyone got any genuine rumours?
Here's my two pence worth...EK to introduce First Class on the MAN route...discuss.

So Cargoman and Momentary Lapse, you believe that business that partially depend on their leased property at/services to the airport should have a say in how the company is run.

Give me strength. On that basis, as a tax payer I should have a personal say in how every government department is run, every shop in the Trafford Centre should have a say in how Peel Holdings does its business and, within aviation, your idea for Manchester should apply to every airport worldwide.

For decades the airport has been run for the benefit of, firstly, the City ratepayers, in the last 35 years for the benefit of those in first the GMC, then the Metropolitan Boroughs - and still is.

The current management isn't doing very well but having management by committee turns racehorses into camels.

Selling the airport would lead to an even worse performance. Your "stakeholders" know bu**er all about running an airport.

British corporate history is littered with companies succesful in one discipline making an absolute shambles of businesses in other disciplines which they have taken over on the basis that "management is the same in any industry".

As for banks being more involved - don't you read the papers or watch the news on TV?

What is needed are Councillors like the long lamemted Gordon Thomas who had the airport at heart, kept the management under close scrutiny and wasn't afraid to scrutinise, praise and criticise in equal measure.

Gordon Sweetapple once said to me that the airport had a reputation for good management because it was managed by an excellent mix of industry professionals, professional local government officers who had learned about aviation from their earliest days and was overseen by councillors determined to make the most of their asset and both improve and develop it on a continuing basis, something currently that seems to have diminished and would be totally lost if sold to a faceless company from elsewhere.