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-   -   MANCHESTER - 7 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/350163-manchester-7-a.html)

ManofMan 3rd Feb 2010 17:01

Do you live in a vast expanse that needs clearing before the airport can operate...stands...taxiways...runways, how can they clear the snow when its falling so heavy??

Preperation my Ar$e...its simply fell too heavy too quickly, look at the Metars !!!!

EGCC 031650Z 12006KT 2000 -SN BKN008 00/00 Q1005 SNOCLO
EGCC 031620Z 13005KT 0800 R23R/1500 SN BKN004 00/00 Q1005 NOSIG
EGCC 031550Z 13003KT 1100 R23R/P1500 SN FEW002 SCT004 BKN008 00/M00 Q1006 BECMG BKN004
EGCC 031520Z 16005KT 1000 R23R/1300 SN FEW003 SCT008 BKN011 01/00 Q1006 BECMG BKN008
EGCC 031450Z 17005KT 2100 -SN SCT008 SCT012 01/00 Q1006 BECMG 1400 SN BKN008
EGCC 031420Z 17009KT 6000 -SHSN FEW014 SCT025 BKN032 02/00 Q1006 BECMG 3000 SHSN BKN010


What cant speak cant lie...bring a million staff in and you couldnt keep the place open, in order to clear the runway you need to get on it, not easily done with landing traffic...hence...SNOCLO

MARK9263 3rd Feb 2010 17:07

Tut,tut,tut...! and still the excuses flow.
I went outside when it stopped and it was about 1 INCH of snow..

ManofMan 3rd Feb 2010 17:12

I went outside when it stopped and it was about 1 INCH of snow

Thats O.K. then...cant imagine a 777 would skid very far in 1 inch of wet snow...maybee you are right, they should have stayed open...Emirates could have launched a new service from Dubai to Heald Green....cos thats where it would have come to a halt when it had finsished skidding.

Dont get me wrong...i was on here banging the drum on how poor MAN was when they used cheap de-icer before Christmas...that simply froze....but today...not the airports fault i am afraid.

Mouser 3rd Feb 2010 17:13

Has it stopped or as forecast has it turned to rain.

MAN777 3rd Feb 2010 17:14

Thats my point, MAN has TWO runways keep one swept all the time and alternate.

What is required is a fully staffed snow fleet

Last week there was just two brushes on the runway no wonder they cannot keep up.

MUFC_fan 3rd Feb 2010 17:18

Surely if snow is falling an inch in 45 minutes, then by the time one end of a runway is clear then the end that you started at would be covered again - I ain't no expert but that seems the logic to me!

I think the reason is that it has come down too fast.

You can have as many runways Dallas Fort Worth and nothing could get in!:ugh:

purplehelmet 3rd Feb 2010 18:10

manofman
 
dubai to heald green. nice one lmao:):ok:

opnot 3rd Feb 2010 18:10

mark9623
one inch of snow, braking action poor /poor/poor no landers QED

man777 how long do you pay for a fully equip snow fleet in this country. I remembered it snowed in June a afew years ago

Mouser 3rd Feb 2010 18:17

Airport flight arrivals shows EK109 landed at 19.03

TURIN 3rd Feb 2010 18:21

While the two runways are being alternately cleared, who, and with what is clearing the taxiways and stands?

Ever tried shifting a heavy jet in thick snow? You think a diversion is expensive? Try having a couple of tugs jack-knife into the fuselage taking the headset men with them! Now that is expensive.

How do you expect the bags/cargo to be offloaded when the stands are thick with snow? Highloaders are not off road vehicles. While were at it, how does an electric buggy pull a set of steps through thick snow?

True, if there was a multitude with shovels and grit you may have a chance but currently forget it.

We do not generally in this country experience the weather we have at the moment. It is not economical to man up and maintain a fleet of equipment that will be used once every other blue moon.

Accept it. It's a bit inconvenient but it's better than injuries to personnel and damaged aircraft.
Don't get me started on de-icing the aircraft!!!!:mad:

MARK9263 3rd Feb 2010 18:31

OH! And that was a problem 5/10/20/30/40 years ago?
This the first time we ever had snow ?

Stop the tow-the-line,PC,apologist nonsense..!

Brian Fantana 3rd Feb 2010 18:37

Manofman - Taxiways and airside roads should have been de-iced and swept that way they would have been able to get onto the runway - PRIOR PLANNING!! Or was there not enough man power on shift. The Bean counters not allowing overtime?? Yes there is landing traffic to dodge but it’s a winter afternoon in Feb during the worst recession to hit the airlines - hardly peak week in summer aircraft movements going on.
MAN777 - MAN has 2 runways, but the bean counters are not prepared to cover the cost of opening the second. Fire cover on the far side would have to open, extra controllers in the tower and airfield ops to carry out runway inspections.
I have experience of being stuck in the hold at Dayne with 23R blocked and having to divert with other carriers, we were not allowed to do a visual approach onto 23L, a CAVOK day too!!
MAN needs to pull its socks up sharpish but whilst bean counters are running it there is no chance! IMHO

MAN777 3rd Feb 2010 19:08

The stands and taxiways were not thick with snow, there was a very thin coating of rapidly melting slush, its perfectly safe to drive any form of airport vehicle in those conditions WITH CARE. The ground was not frozen as was the case a few weeks ago.

I understand that runways are a different matter, but once off the runway are you telling me that a slow moving airliner is going to be bothered by a bit of slush ?

I never suggested a snow fleet available all year, what i did imply was that maybe with 36 hours notice, some sort of effective team could be put together. I have worked on and off at MAN for 30 years and I dont ever recall such long closures for such small amounts of snow, also the snow clearing fleet MAN had years ago was half the size it is now and the place was kept open, what is so different ??

Hopefully this will be the last snow of the winter and MAG management can get back to running the shops !! Oh by the way dont you need flights actually on the ground at Manchester to supply the shop punters !!!:rolleyes:

Ringwayman 3rd Feb 2010 19:28

Can anyone suggest how "an effective team" can be assembled in 36 hours? As I understand it, all would-be operatives on the apron needed to go through the appropriate channels for them to go through security processes before they gain airside passes....something that can take months. So for today's events, it means that they would have had to start that process perhaps back in November. Then MAN put them on a retainer "just in case" and in the meantime these people would have to be trusted to keep their diairies free for 3 to 6 months so that nothing could potentially clash with what may be needed once in 10 to 20 years. In the meantime we could be talking 50 people on reasonable money (let's pitch in at £5.80/hr for a 37 hour week for 20 weeks which equates to well over £4000 perperson or £200,000 in total without any overtime) for no net effect except to necessitate a rise in airport charges to reflect these extra costs which is something that most, if not all, airlines are clamouring against.

As for the shops needing flights on the ground, are you suggesting that there are no passengers already at the airport ready for the outbound sectors?

busz 3rd Feb 2010 19:35

Flew into SZG as the FO on a flight recently. It snowed while we were there, and the snow clearing team, about 8 vehicles were on and off the runway in between the departures and arrivals. You CAN keep the show on the road, but it requires investment. MAN is too busy giving dividends to the councils to invest in infrastructure at the moment however.

I used to be proud of my airport. Not anymore

MAN777 3rd Feb 2010 19:53

I didnt mean bring in outsiders, give me some credit.

Snow clearing staff come from other sections within MAG, anybody who can drive and who are suitably trained can be diverted into the role. Thats how its always been done.

I think MAN has adopted a "too hard to do" policy and basically decided not to make the effort until the last flake falls, then take your time to catch up, however long that is. Meanwhile dozens of MAN movements are scattered all over the UK, causing further knock on delays and cancellations.

Re shoppers in Terminals, Basic Retail common sense says that you get as many people as possible through the doors to spend their money. So if the airport is being run by bean counters, they are shooting themselves in the foot by being so ready to shut the runway. A few hundred delayed passengers only have a finite amount of money to spend.

greatoaks 3rd Feb 2010 20:13

Man of Man
 

Emirates could have launched a new service from Dubai to Heald Green....cos thats where it would have come to a halt when it had finished skidding.

Pi$$ Funny ... well done

Here's an idea for the accountants

Whilst the airport is closed run some free buses from the Trafford Centre and pack em through the new blue retail experience......£££££££'s

TURIN 3rd Feb 2010 20:32


Stop the tow-the-line,PC,apologist nonsense..!
Eh?:confused:



You CAN keep the show on the road, but it requires investment.
Now your getting it. :ok:


I understand that runways are a different matter, but once off the runway are you telling me that a slow moving airliner is going to be bothered by a bit of slush ?
No, but a static one full of fuel and load will be a bugger to shift off the gate.

Mr A Tis 3rd Feb 2010 20:55

Let us not forget either that the airlines want to pay minimum fees ( or in Ryanair's case-no fees at all) to use the airport facilities.
Its not just the airport beencounters, but the airlines are as much to blame, under the "ryanairisation" of the industry.

Betablockeruk 3rd Feb 2010 21:05


Let us not forget either that the airlines want to pay minimum fees ( or in Ryanair's case-no fees at all) to use the airport facilities.
and yet PIK (Ryanir base) is currently taking most of GLA diverted traffic.

Looks like if you got hit by this band of snow then snoclo was inevitable.

MUFC_fan 3rd Feb 2010 23:07

Flybe in talks with Aberdeen Airport : Aberdeen Airport News Stories

Surely...

MANTFS 4th Feb 2010 07:44

Why during yesterdays snow did the airport issue that it was closed until 2000 when in fact it re-opened at 1830?. This false information being given out by the ATC units caused several aircraft to divert unnecessarily causing cost to airlines and disruption to passengers.

ManofMan 4th Feb 2010 09:39

Why during yesterdays snow did the airport issue that it was closed until 2000 when in fact it re-opened at 1830

Err...maybee that the 2000hrs opening time was an estimate, the snow stopped at 1800 hrs and they were able to get the place open again, any aircraft on route would have been kept updated so nothing would have diverted unnecessarily, you only have to look at the arrivals to see that stuff was getting in, if what your saying is correct then none of this would have got in ....

18:37 SAS541 OY-KBL Airbus A321-23218:40 SAS2549 OY-KHM McDonnell-Douglas MD8219:01 TCX76LN G-FCLF Boeing 757-28A19:03 UAE19 A6-EBH Boeing 777-31HER19:07 FIN3689 OH-LKL Embraer EMB190-100LR19:17 BMA376Q G-EMBI Embraer EMB145EU19:24 AFR116E F-GKXN Airbus A320-21419:28 SHT2G G-BUSK Airbus A320-21119:32 BEE207 G-JECH De Havilland DHC8-40219:35 EIN20D EI-EDS Airbus A320-21419:41 KLM1093 PH-BDP Boeing 737-30619:43 MON859P G-MONK Boeing 757-2T719:46 CAL6639 B-18709 Boeing 747-409F (SCD)19:50 BEE375 G-ECOK De Havilland DHC8-40219:53 SHT2910 G-DOCS Boeing 737-436

Nothing diverted anywhere as a result of Manchester estimating 2000 Hrs.

Does that answer your question ??

MANTFS 4th Feb 2010 10:26

"Nothing diverted elsewhere due to Manchester estimating opening at 2000"

Not true - At least 2 ZB's diverted to BHX/EMA with over 90 mins holding fuel having been told MAN will not open until 2000 at the earliest.

allosaurus 4th Feb 2010 10:30

not frozen!
 
Not frozen!At 0700 WED stands 2 to 8 were like ice rinks! once again personel and aircraft at risk from non de-iced stands and road ways:eek:

ManofMan 4th Feb 2010 10:45

"Nothing diverted unnecessarily"

Not true - At least 2 ZB's diverted to BHX/EMA with over 90 mins holding fuel having been told MAN will open until 2000 at the earliest.


At what time did this happen ???

MARK9263 4th Feb 2010 11:01

At what time did this happen ???
 
Give it up defending the indefencable..! Just accept that it was another foul-up courtesy of our local aerodrome!

Ian Brooks 4th Feb 2010 11:06

Mark9263
Leeds closed this morning due fog/low cloud, was this due to airport authority unable to blow it away quick enough?

Ian B

MARK9263 4th Feb 2010 11:08

And your spurious point is ?

ManofMan 4th Feb 2010 11:11

Give it up defending the indefencable..! Just accept that it was another foul-up courtesy of our local aerodrome!

Nah...why would i do that ??? the people who are bashing the airport do so from the comfort of their arm-chair, no idea whatsover.

Think you will find that the ZB that went to BHX did so at about 16.30 ish, even if he would have held until the earliest opening time he would have needed 2 + hours of holding fuel, so my point is he would have had to divert even if the airport would have said it would be re-opening at 1800 hrs !!!!

The previous poster said that the diversion was un-nessesary.

MANTFS 4th Feb 2010 11:12

MANOFMAN

ZB I/B from ACE arrived in BHX around 1800
ZB I/B from TFS arrived EMA 1820

Manchester Kurt 4th Feb 2010 11:13

Mark, you seem more concerned with critising people for the closure than understanding why it happened and why it will probably happen again.

Not exactly very constructive.

MARK9263 4th Feb 2010 11:17

Another apologist..welcome my friend

Ian Brooks 4th Feb 2010 11:19

Give a break!

Ian B

al446 4th Feb 2010 11:21


Why during yesterdays snow did the airport issue that it was closed until 2000 when in fact it re-opened at 1830
Followed by


ZB I/B from ACE arrived in BHX around 1800
ZB I/B from TFS arrived EMA 1820
Point is?

hammerb32 4th Feb 2010 11:51

Another apologist..welcome my friend

Mark,

As you're such an expert on this at least share with us how you'd keep a runway, taxiways and stands clear of heavy snow and the airport open, maybe send it in. I mean it's happened at pretty much every UK airport at some point this winter, you know something the UK aviation industry doesn't, you need to share your expertise. Or maybe, as you're coming across, you're just a professional complainer/whinger who doesn't really understand a thing you talk about?

MARK9263 4th Feb 2010 12:01

Someone famous once said 'When you have a to resort to personal insults to win an argument then the argument itself is lost'
Thats not up to me mate what I would do,thats why the airport pays good money for people to provide the brains and the manpower to do that, but it doesnt mean to say people can't have an opinion that opposes yours...!

hammerb32 4th Feb 2010 12:02

A personal insult, or perception being a reality, thanks for confirming what i thought though....

BHX5DME 4th Feb 2010 12:18

Manchesters Passenger Decline Continues into 2010
 
January 2010 pax - 1,034,459 down 14.06%
January 2010 movements - 10,617 down 18.59%

Pax 12 months to 31.01.10 - 18,669,520 down 15.20%
Movements 12 months to 31.01.10 - 170,060 down 15.89%

Ian Brooks 4th Feb 2010 12:28

A few serious questions
1)How much does one of these big snowplows cost that is operated by the Likes of Oslo or Helsinki?
2) How many would MAN need to clear both runways and all taxyways and aprons in
about an hour or two
3) How many staff would that need to man vehicles and maintain at a few minutes notice should it start to snow or what would these guys/gals do when it is not snowing
( most years probably 360+ ).
4) Presuming you cannot have big snow banks at sides of taxyway/runway how many lorry loads of snow would need to be moved and where is it put.
5) how many deicing vehicles would be needed

This is not a sarcastic request I am very interested to learn about what it takes as
i have little knowlege ( like many others ) on this

Ian B


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