Stuck at five signatures. I would advise you to try to get more signatures yourself by handing out flyers at the airport etc. My AA petition stands at 81 signatures with loads of criticism. It would be great to see BHX being an international carriers' only UK destination, the other being Mahan Air. If they were ever going to start a new route soon, they would start it when the summer time table starts at the end of March.

Looking at those PAX figures, Air India did better than PIA and Emirates with 85%. Probably why BHX handled a record number of passengers in 2008.

I'll take this seriously. I won't become over ambitious as to what PIA would do. I do hope they don't axe the route. To be honest it does need some expansion. They've been stuck with four weekly flights with B777's for almost two years now.

Hassan13, I think Phileas might actually have a life!! :ugh::ugh:

I was just saying what he COULD do, not should.

He could. But it would be utterly fruitless.

Perhaps as utterly fruitless as petitioning to the attention of the many Aviation Executives of Chicago of an (AA) airline that is actually based/located in Texas! :)

Oooh, some feedback from the said petition:

Coco The Clown: Birmingham to Chicago on an American Airlines B777? Can I use that in my stage show? It's the funniest, daftest thing I've heard for YEARS !!!

Jeff Smisek: A direct blimp service via Iceland would be suitable.

Ivor Biggun: To the creator of this 'petition'. American Airlines are not going to relauch direct flights to Birmingham UK from Chicago like you suggest. Also you have been posting the links to this on certain forums with a title alluding to the petition having been set up by Birmingham Airport. It has NOT been set up by Birmingham Airport, and it is unlikely Birmingham Airport are going after a flight that failed miserably nearly ten years ago. Give up with this silly idea.

Duncan Donut: It appears that, in your desperation to afford this ridiculous petition any credibility, you or someone else has resorted to stealing peoples' airliners.net identities to make what appear to be credible support for your campaign. The notion that AA will ever put a 777 into BHX on regular service to ORD is nothing more than your wet dream.

And finally:

R Branson: I might bring my airline in and make Birmingham a major intercontinental hub. So what if there is not the population to support it, this petition has convinced me that we, like all airlines, should be completely philanthropic and listen to 13 year old spotters when making crucial business decisions.

19 January 2011
Bosses at Birmingham Airport have backed calls from London Mayor, Boris Johnson, to realise the potential of existing airports to ease the burden of constrained capacity at Heathrow.
Mr Johnson, speaking on Tuesday (18th January), cited the growing problem of limited capacity in and around the capital and called for boldness in addressing the issue. One of the proposed solutions is tapping into the vast potential of Birmingham as an alternative to airports in the south-east, which would be even more logical when Birmingham Airport is linked to High Speed Rail.
Birmingham Airport (amongst other major regional Airports) is a Strategic National Asset which, with emerging Government thinking, can easily form part of the solution to the over-heated south-east. There is spare capacity at Birmingham - enough capacity to take another nine million passengers immediately – and more than another 21 million passengers in future years, as it improves its capability with a modest runway extension, for which Planning Consent has already been given.

This spare capacity, allied with High-Speed 2, which will bring Birmingham within 38 minutes of the capital – or position Birmingham in ‘Zone 4’ of the Underground map - negate the need for further expansion elsewhere. Even now Euston is only 70 minutes from Birmingham Airport and many in the south-east can probably get to Birmingham as quickly as they could reach Heathrow's check-in desks. Significantly, the Mayor singled out the future connectivity of the Midlands as a key factor in meeting the growing demand for aviation.
Paul Kehoe, Birmingham Airport’s Chief Executive, said, “The government has already decided against airport expansion elsewhere and has indicated that existing spare capacity should be utilised. A more efficient use of regional airports, linked to High-Speed Rail, will ensure that opportunities and created across the UK, rather than draw jobs out of the regions and deliver them to the south-east.
“In these difficult times it makes sense to use and sensibly improve the assets that you have, rather than building whole new runways and demolishing whole villages. Those days are over.
“Aviation has its part to play in an integrated transport system, and rail must play a part in distributing the demand for International Gateways, to airports that have capacity. Birmingham is a prime example as it is just over an hour from London.
“Birmingham Airport is a vital yet underused piece of National strategic infrastructure. It is already the Midlands' premier international gateway.”

I work out that based on a 30 day month, it equates to 300 pax. Filter that down to 200 pax per day, because, if BHX does get dropped, some pax may defect to MAN/LHR/EK/W5 and so on.
Im sure if TK ran a 10 weekly B738 or daily A333 to IST, it could mop up the pax.
Im also sure that PIA could 'sweeten' pax by twisting the scenario and say they now have a daily connection to BHX rather than 4 weekly.

Looking at past trends, BHX will need 6 or so months of constand 90% loads as well as a good yields to upgrade service/frequency.
For example, MAN is next in line for a 3rd daily service and a 2nd A380, this is due to LF being around the 90-95% mark and high LF in the F cabin too.

Looking at this quote from the news article, just how does some extra tarmac at the end of your runway increase your CAPACITY by 21million?
I can understand if it was an extended terminal, or more parking stands, but a slighty longer runway? :confused:

"It would be great......"

Why are we giving this deluded spotter the time of day? I assume Hassaan has heard of a rather large city called London, located to the south of BHX.

Time to put this nonsense to bed, I have nothing whatsoever against BHX (have used it myself on a few occasions) but this daft petition is nothing more than entertainment value. Any airline executives reading it will be mildly amused by it, but will it affect their route planning decisions?!

It's only given kudos by the amount of posters obsessed by it...........:rolleyes:

Its about time the mods stepped in and knocked this on the head.

Centre cities

Call 100, Centre Cities

Agree with both of you, time to end it.
If he really is 13 years old he should perhaps be steered towards the spotters thread.
That said he doesn't deserve some of the nasty comments he's received from some posters. :=

I would be supprised to see PIA pull out of BHX given the success of this service. High loads and the fact that birmingham has one of the highest pakistani communities in europe. The BHX operation is almost the same size a the manchester service. Birmingham does have a larger pakistani community than manchester and leeds. According to posts on this forum BHX - ISB attracts 7000-9000 a month, I dont think PIA will be in a hurry to give up this route. IF PIA are going cut services then it will be the ones that are not profitable and no future prospect of growth. I dont think BHX has that problem in this area ,I might be wrong. Leeds is a small operation and glasgow was to. GLA was stopped because it was not making any money. There's no official news on PIA website about this supposed deal with turkish airlines. Just media speculation. Just have to wait and see!

Rodchester:

Not quite right. Manchester ahas 35.23% of the UK population in its catchment, whilst BHX has 24.40% of the UK population in its catchment.

Again, no, MAN has 15 Pakistan frequencies per week on PK/ED, whilst BHX has 4.

Like I stated above, over a 30 day month, its 300 pax, that, if BHX was pulled filtration to other services could be filtrated down to 200 per day. That could easily be mopped up by a TK increase of some sort. Also, loads of 79% arnt brilliant, put it this way, 79% LF means that nearly a quater of seats from BHX wernt sold.

But the 'media speculation' quotes a number of statements from PIA management, so, maybe a re-read of the articles is in order?

Can you please let me know where you have got the stats from?

PIA
 

If it makes money I am sure it will stay but only time will tell.

BHX & MAN to ISB had similar load factors in December if my figures
are reliable.

Based on 144 seats for the Air Blue (unfortunately only wiki to rely on, groan),
329 for the 772, 393 for the 77W and 195 is for the A310. The latter is a guess, as BHX has not had A310's for ages and I have lost my records of the seating capacity.

For December Manchester ISB - 12886

26 x 319, 10 x 77W, 18 x 772 and 18 x 310 (from Libhomeradar).

Load factor 78% - okay only one month and my seating figures
could be slightly out similar.

BHX was actually closing in on LHR-ISB - December 1400 difference.

Pete

Just want to reply to wanna be there's comment.

When i was talking about catchment area i was refering to the Pakistani population and not the general population. Birmingham and the midlands does have a higher population of people of pakistani descent than manchester and the northwest. 100000 in b'ham alone.

As for passenger numbers manchester has PIA & air blue flying the route, so common sense would tell you that Manchester is going to handle more passengers. If you look at just the PIA service alone Man/bhx probley have the same loads give or take, which olton mention before.

As for load factors 79% is not brilliant and not bad. No service flies a full loads especially in these harsh economic times. That load factor was for december and does not reflect the whole year since previous loads have being much higher and not far behind Heathrow's which was mention on another forum. Thats not bad! in my opinion, considering bHX distance from Heathrow.

As for TK well if you compare there loads to PIA from BHX that speaks for itself.
I will say this again on the PIA website there is no officail mention of this plan. Some of the routes i can't see PIA giving up like Newyork, but in this climate nothing is impossible!

Finally if BHX - ISB is profitable and doing well with good future prospects then it should stay. If not it will go, simple as that! The Same will apply to manchester and any other route that PIA has, Glasgow service has already bitten the dust.

As olton says only time will tell!

.

What are you on about? If MAN has a higher percentage of the UK population than BHX, then that means MAN has a higher population. For example, if I have 10% of 100 people, then I have 10 people, but if I have 5% of people, I have 5 people. Therefore, my number is higher?!?!

Air Blue at the moment only accounts for 3 rotations, on an A319 at that, so, PIA still has twice as many movements at MAN.

Anyway, Im not turning this into another MAN-vs-BHX debate, but your drawing on innacuracies as to why PIA should stay.

It probably wont get dropped, as its going to be easier for them to run BHX rather than drop it. If any routes do get dropped in the UK, I think its only going to be LBA as its easier to consolidate into MAN for them.

I think that as far as PIA (and for that matter Air India) are concerned, politics are more important in reaching decisions as to whether this or that route is opened or closed.

I don't pretend to understand anything about how democracy (?) operates in Pakistan, supposing that the two words are not an oxymoron. However, with such large ex pat populations around both Birmingham and Manchester, who may have the vote in elections back home, the political cost of offending voters living abroad by allowing the cancellation of direct air services home may prove very influential in deciding whether or not PIA services to either airport would be scrubed.

I'm not generally a betting man, but I would put a small bet on both airports retaining their PIA services on that basis alone, before economics even raise their head.

ATNotts

I totally agree with you I don`t think BHX or MAN will get dropped due to
the power of the Pakistani population in both catchment areas

Looking at the pax figures for MAN and LBA it would seem as the Pakistani
community have given up on Leeds and transfered to MAN as LBA is 29%down
and MAN 13% up on a much large passenger base


Ian B

When i was talking about catchment area i was refering to the Pakistani population and not the general population. Birmingham and the midlands does have a higher population of people of pakistani descent than manchester and the northwest. 100000 in b'ham alone.

Rodchester,

You're quite correct in saying the West Midlands has a much larger population of people of Pakistani descent than the North West, indeed 123,000 was the figures at the last census in the city of Birmingham alone, this compares to a population of 83,000 poeple of Pakistani descent living in the county of Greater Manchester. The difference however the airports is that MAN lies in the middle of Merseyside, Gtr Manchester, Lancashire, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Derbyshire and Staffordshire so the actual catchment of the airport is much bigger than that available to BHX. Don't have the time to work out the heritage Pakistani population in all those areas combined, but it will be considerably higher than that of the West Midlands.

Hope this helps.

Armavia
 

Any update? I know they were having some issues regarding Indian approval but surely all that should have been in place before they even announced the route to begin with. Over the past two years all the new routes that have been launched from BHX have been a complete disaster - Hellenic, Air Syhelt, Bilga Air, the non starter that was Spanair and now Armavia. At least US Airways managed a few months. Surely this must say something about the BHX management team? What kind of message does it send out to other airlines? Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of BHX, but I really think they need to get their act together on attracting airlines that will serve the airport on viable routes.

The "international" pier doesn't need to have a pile of widebodies lined up to look impressive - a few more european flags lined up would look just as nice!

Ive said before that BHX are going after the wrong airlines.
They keep going after these 'quirky' airlines, but I fail to see what is wrong with your typical AA/IB/LS/U2 and so on.
A new start up like Air Syhlet must require lower landing fees to help it get off the ground, so why not offer these fees to the above airlines?
I still believe to this day, BHX missed the biggest trick by not doing more to get jet2 in. They could have done so much for BHX, Just look at EMA, they are going 10 to the bell now and thats only after a couple of months!

The interesting one to watch will be Etihad. They are going double daily at MAN in October, and have specifically stated they will start a new 'Western Europe destination'
Whether the MAN expansion will scupper a hope for BHX (3 daily at Heathrow and now 2 daily at MAN), remains to be seen, but come on BHX, pull your finger out and grab them while they are expanding!!!!!!
The chance wont come around again......

If we're talking long haul destinations I think Qatar Airways is the one to go for - they'd clean up on the connections to Amritsar alone. It would probably mean the end for Mahan Air though, I think the market would sustain one cheaper fare airline and seeing as Turkmenistan have been serving the route for 10 years and survived during Air India's time it's clear that they have built up quite a loyal customer base. Saying that, I'm assuming that the majority of Mahan's passengers transfer onto Amristar. Is this the case?

Yes Qatar would be a better fit, but yes qatar would probably mean the end of Mahan Air (they may defect back to MAN, as the middle eastern/asian market demand is far from being met there-EK quote)
However, QR seem to have been the same for BHX as CX have been for MAN. Will they, wont they, will they, wont they......
EY however, slips on most of Brums radars and are actively looking for a new western Europe desination. Im sure youd rather have a confirmed EY than 'prospective' Qatar, but, like I say, I wonder if the increase to MAN could put paid to EY at BHX?

Any new carrier would be a blessing - QR have had several opportunities to launch BHX and I'm still amazed in never happened when Amritsar came online. In EY's case, you thought they might have given BHX a try before suddenly ramping up MAN's capacity.

In either case, will EK scare them both off by adding a 3rd daily or sending in the A380. Remember when Gulf Air was coming? All of a sudden EK launched the evening flight and that was that.

Isnt EDI the next QR UK destination ? Would have thought BHX would have had more demand than EDI

Why would other Gulf airlines be scared at EK's operations? Look at MAN: EK = A380 + 77W (for now, may be 2 x A380 or 3 daily by next year) and QR daily A330 (imagine they'll be looking at 77W or 2 daily sooner or later). EY daily 77W going 10 weekly in August, double daily by the end of the year.

Both QR and EY came to MAN years after EK started (with EY launching when the others had their exisitng frequencies).

GF never started BHX as they wanted to go away from the model they had originally planned, not because of EK. Besides, GF and EK co-existed at MAN for a while before GF left at the inability to link with Bahrain which they wanted.

It's not looking like the most convincing of arguments to let BHX take any LHR overspill if you are concerned that getting airline A will stop airline B from coming.

No. EY have just invested close to £1million in lounges and staff at MAN, so there was no way BHX would be expanded at MAN's expense.
It wasnt 'sudden' either. It was obvious from the lounge building that MAN would have eventually been ramped up from a 1 daily service, you dont invest that sort of money for 1 daily flight.

With loads in the 70's and low 80's percentage wise, combined with a lower usage of the J cabin, that isnt going to happen in 2011. You have more chance of QR comming.

Qr/ey/ls/u2/ek
 

It sounds like people are convinced that BHX are not going after the likes of QR/EY/U2 but actively seeking out Armavia etc.

The rumours I have heard claim that BHX have been in contact with all those airlines in the last five years and they have all declined for one reason or another. Obviously we don't know what was offered but from what I hear certainly in respect of U2 it is not for the lack of trying.

I also don't think any of those airlines can be blamed for shying away in
the last few years, what a disaster that could have been with the economy, US Air PHL was bad enough.

Although, now might be the time and I agree with chinapattern that QR
would have a massive kick start with the onward connections to ATQ.

This is not just from BHX "fanboys" like myself but from the East as well
but we have to assume that this is not enough on its own to make a
service profitable or even more likely it could be down to lack of aircraft.
Don't forget ARN, CPH and BCN (more "known" cities) started with 319's
and Berlin is still one or an A320. A luxury I doubt they could afford with BHX.

I have to admit I would be disappointed if EDI got the nod over BHX but with Emirates having still not announced an evening service from GLA, QR might see that as the safer option.

As for the more unusual carriers I doubt BHX go after these, as they
are probably dreamt up in the backstreet travel agents of Brum.

As for Jet2 I have no idea if BHX have ever tried but looking at their current flights they would be okay at BHX in winter, as plenty of room to park their
aircraft up like the EMA based aircraft ;)

Pete

If the above cities could be started on A320's, Apart from range I dont see why BHX couldnt? If what it takes for the route to start is an A320, then that is what QR will use? Maybe the presise reason they have not started BHX is their worry at being able to fill out an A330?

Dont forget, LS have the QC fleet for mail flights, which, dont do much daytime flying. Maybe thats what you are seeing?

Thing that gets me though, is RYR are known for being quite fussy when it comes to airport charges, BHX obviously offered them a good rate to start. Surely a rate as low as the prospective one given to RYR could have been good enough for EZY. After all, Easy are quite happy at MAN but RYR wernt.

There is that, but Jet 2 is a very seasonal operation. They need less aircraft in winter, and those that they do need fly a lot less than in summer. But when you own most of your fleet there are no leasing charges to pay when the aircraft is sat around doing nothing. Plus an ideal chance to perform maintenance, especially with an older fleet that probably needs more 'TLC' than newer aircraft, This model has worked well for Jet 2, and likewise for Allegiant in the US

Jet2
 

wanna_be_there

It was sarcasm I'm afraid, in respect of the East Mids based 757. I am told this is now down to 1 or 2 flights per week and next summer is no great shakes either. Both based aircraft at times do one flight a day and then night-stop (Mon/Tue/Wed) and that is summer!

As for FR some still insist they were offered hardly anything re the base just the usual sliding scale of landing charges. This has no doubt been fuelled by the fact that out of the 17 flights started in June/July 2008 only one has operated unbroken since, I believe (Gdansk, as GRO & DUB were already operating) plus 5 others, which 3 had short breaks (BZG/RZE/BTS) and two which are seasonal (TRS/REU).

As for Qatar range is not a problem as most are/were 319CJ's 108 seat config aimed at the business market with some economy, which thinking about it would be the wrong way round for BHX. However I think BCN will be the last of the three to go to the A332 this summer and I believe it was the shortest of the three to last as a 319. Whether this was down to the success of the route or the 332 becoming available, I don't know.

airhumberside

I agree if you own the aircraft little point in flying them in winter if you can't make money but I assume parking fees still apply and crew wages (I assume Cabin Crew are temps) such as cock-pit crew? I know all UK based airlines reduce their winter flying but I was expecting more than 1 or 2 flights a week from the new EMA based aircraft.

Pete

FR were going to have a hangar built as part of the deal over on the west side where the Menzies shed was demolished.....This of course went because FR failed to live up to their promise (FR - Promise, Oxymoron?).

Taken from a few pages back:

It was hoped the BHX stop could be re-added to this, but

Air India have now re-timed the YYZ service to allow the B77L to operate ATQ-DEL-YYZ-DEL-ATQ, so no BHX for a while

Wanna Be There,

Not sure it's relevant to BHX, any re-start to BHX wouldn't include YYZ, it's a political thing. At the route of it the West Mids has the largest Punjabi community outside of India, at the heart of the Punjab region is Amritsar. It's viewed as a snub to the West Mids Punjab community that Toronto gets a service yet Brum doesn't. That said the largest Punjab community in Canada is Vancouver so the route is all a little non-sensical but this is what happens I guess when politics becomes the main driver of the route planning dept.

The AI info, came from this article: Amritsar-Toronto flight to resume soon - Express India

There is an extract which mentions Birmingham, saying that the routes will relaunch within a "definite and narrow time frame." I don't think it will be an India-Birmingham-Toronto route because of 777-200LR's been introduced. A 777-300ER on a India-Birmingham route is the best we could hope for.

Now about QR and EY. It's not certain that we'll get any of them. Unless QR warms up to BHX and finally starts a four weekly or even daily route to/from Doha, or someone contacts Doha's mayor and writes them a well-written email about starting flights to Birmingham from Doha. Only a suggestion but I doubt they would listen.

On Birmingham's e-petition site, there is a new petition for AA to re-instate the ORD flight and to add new routes to the US such as JFK, and possibly DFW or MIA if there is a market. I'm not asking for sigs, just letting the word out and hopefully, it sounds more mature than the other one. I don't want people to take the mick out of this one.

I have tried not to sound naive with this post.

Doha has a mayor???

Maybe not. I didn't do any research.

Maybe not. I didn't do any research.

Some questions don't need answers....

Bmibaby pull all Prague routes except MAN. Last BHX flight on 24 March.