VLM's service LPL-LCY hasn't got the kind of catchment it needs for anything like a serious operation. The LCY routes do well with the financial district traffic, a lot of finance bods using it to go to regional offices or to firms based up in Manchester.

None of that sort of setup in Liverpool really...there's also a surprising number of passengers on the MAN route travelling to and from Antwerp. Big communities in both places.



Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...251113&page=14

I think this misses the point. Before LPL expanded, the likelihood is that all of those flights would have been from MAN. Therefore MAN has occured a loss of passengers to LPL. LPL may have a lack of connections, but MAN is hardly brilliant in that aspect either.
As for London routes, the domestic (particularly LHR) flights have been decreasing anyway since the west coast mainline work ended and journey times decreased, and to be honest, as someone who has gone down this method, I just cannot be bothered with the security and queues for a poxy flight to LHR. In the time I have queued, waited, been delayed as usual etc, I'm already at Euston on the train. The LHR flights from MAN are still busy is due to the amount of connections made at LHR because the flights don't exist from MAN direct or cost too much and are cheaper via LHR.
LPL may be a one terminal low-cost only one trick pony at the moment, but, the fact that pax who were frequent MAN users are driving further to LPL instead of using MAN shows there is something missing from the offerings at MAN. That is what needs addressing, be nice if that had been done instead of :mad: off the pax even more with T1 arrivals parking charges and horrendous security queues, even at T2 which is hardly a terminal building built before the days of high pax numbers or heavy aviation security.
If MAN wants to regain the momentum, it needs the low cost flights and perceived (or real) convenience LPL is offering, and the routes pax are connecting to via LHR. Until then it's a just a second tier provincial airport (albeit a better than average one)

I was going to post in detail but Autoglide has said most of it. I'd just add that if you multiply the statement a few times for the other regional airports starting to snap at MAN's heels (LBA, DSA, BHX, COV etc) then the problem for MAN looks even worse.

I'd also concur that the LON routes issue is a dead duck. MAPLC already expects rail to win that traffic in the longer term. BE may have reduced services from LPL, but what have BA done at MAN? MAPLC built a whole new terminal for them! :D :bored:

When BT was privatised and their monopoly market was opened to competition, they managed to take a profitable business at the forefront of a growing market (mobiles, telecoms, infrastructure etc) and reduce it to a loss-making behemoth. Lesson, anyone?

This Manchester vs. Liverpool thing is SO boring now. Can we just move on please?

I agree with Vuelo, the point is the region now has 3 succesful airports, manchester, Liverpool and Blackpool and that is good for the North West as a whole.

Sorry, but just what "Competition" to Manchester do these Airports bring?
DSA "Regional/Charter"....serves a "local" Market... Great :D
LBA "Regional" Airport......serves The local Market...Rather Successfully, I believe :ok:
BHX A very good airport..look at the Domestic/International Mix :ok:
Cov, IMMHI, is a "competitor" to BHX....rather than MAN
I note that you have omitted the other "significant" player....LPL...
That is the Airport which is "Snapping at MANs heels"....LoCo, etc
watp,iktch

I bet MAN has lost more to Heathrow because of Fortress London or because of the old bilateral agreements which did not include Manchester as an option

G-I-B

Yes, of course you can, if you are happy to ignore something that directly affects the employment/job security of staff, and development of MAN. In fact, you could ignore everything negative and pretend everything at MAN is wonderful. You could pretend MAN wasn't overtaken by STN, that the lack of new LH routes is a mirage, that the long running claim's it will be the UK's 2nd or 3rd biggest airport is now a sad joke, that it is not losing customers to rail and other airports. Yes, with this method life is wonderful...
Personally, I would rather see problems for what they are, they can they be resolved rather than pretending they do not exist.

AUTOGLIDE

Nobody is pretending that everything at MAN is wonderful.
Nobody is pretending that MAN has been overtaken by STN, which serves a completely different region and a different market with vast amounts of inbound tourism. It's possible that passenger throughput has increased at exactly the same rate (if not more) at North Western airport as at South Eastern airports. There's certainly less of a need for people to connect through London airports than there was 20 years ago.
Nobody is particularly concerned that MAN's wish to be the UK's 2nd or 3rd largest airport hasn't happened. If the north of England could produce better yields for airlines, already operating with very tight margins, then maybe MAN would have a better chance of this.
Nobody is under any illusion that MAN now faces competition unprecedented in its history, at Liverpool, Leeds, Doncaster and Blackpool.
Posting incessant diatribes on an internet forum isn't going to help matters, it would be far more productive to address your concerns to people with some influence, and not us, because Manchester threads are starting to make very painful reading.

Without wanting to continue this inter airport rivalry, I thought Manchester was designated as a Monopoly Airport like Heathrow and had aspects of its abilty to abuse its monopoly restricted in order that surrounding airport could grow.
This handicap has proved its worth, and now Liverpool,Blackpool and Leeds Bradford have developed not as a result of their own ability but because the playing field was never level.
I'm sure I read somewhere that Manchester requested this Monopoly stutus now be removed as they where no longer in that position.

Surprised there is any rivalry. I thought entire justifaction for the expansion at Manch over the years has been to provide more local options as an alternative to the South. If now the locals of Leeds, Sheffield, Blackpool and Liverpool are too embracing the fly local option instead of the time and cost associated with getting to MAN, shouldn't that be welcomed?
loco

Yes, it was always a double edged sword with Manchester trying its hardest to lobby for greater non London air services, it could not justify then saying it and only it should have them, they had to say the lobby was for all the region airports and to that end, it was most successful.
What it was not allowed to do by law was crush Liverpool (which it could easily have done if allowed to bring its charges below them and outprice them) so Liverpool was allowed to artificially flourish at Manchester expense by law.
The same is not true for Heathrow which cross subsidised Stansted because they are all BAA (for the greater good of BAA) they have created a bigger monopoly, this was not envisaged when Stansted was given the go ahead to be expanded, the passenger numbers where capped at 7m and required to go back through Parliament to increase that figure.
The regional lobby agreed to this assuming that the figure would never get increased, unfortunately and again artificially it was, so it grew and grew, because it undercut all, and what could Manchester do? nothing its hands where tied because it was a regional monopoly airport.

Ironically several years before this Stansted threatened to report Manchester to the European Commission for attempting to attract traffic by undercutting Stansteds landing fees, how they have turned that round.

Great news in tonight's Manchester Evening News!

Airport in for the long haul

Exclusive by Kevin Feddy

A HOST of new long-haul scheduled destinations is expected to flash on the departures board at Manchester Airport this year and next as bosses look to the east and west for expansion.

They are hopeful of securing routes to Jeddah, in Saudi Arabia, and to Nairobi this year, and are in talks about flights from 2008 to China, India and parts of the US not currently served directly.

The M.E.N. also understands airport chiefs are in discussion with representatives from Qantas, Air New Zealand, Japan Airlines, South African Airways and Sri Lankan Airlines. At present, those carriers are put off because high fuel costs mean they need to generate more business to make money, and there is still less demand for premium seats to and from Manchester than, say, Heathrow.

That could all change when the Boeing 787 Dreamliner comes into service soon. It is more fuel-efficient than current jets, making it more economical for airlines to operate.

Airport bosses see the long-haul scheduled market enabling Manchester to differentiate itself from rivals such as Liverpool John Lennon and Birmingham and position itself as the country's leading regional gateway.

Saudia Airlines is likely to operate two services a week to Jeddah, via Geneva, while hopes are high that Kenya Airways will put on three weekly services to Nairobi, via Paris.

Negotiations are underway with four airlines in China about services to Beijing or Shanghai as the country undergoes rapid economic expansion, while India is also in Manchester's sights.

Resumption

Air India ran services to Bombay for several years, but there is demand for a resumption of links to the north west.

Four carriers are in talks about launching flights to Mumbai, Delhi, Hyderabad and Chennai next year.

Across the Atlantic, Manchester Airport narrowly missed out on a Northwest Airlines service to Detroit last year, but the carrier is looking to expand in the UK and could revive its plans, while United Airlines is looking at the possibility of flights to Los Angeles or San Francisco.

Meanwhile, operators on transAtlantic routes want to increase capacity and frequency as are those flying to Bangladesh, Iran and Libya.

Around 20m people live within a two hours of Manchester Airport, but hundreds of thousands of business and leisure passengers from the region must travel to many long-haul destinations via London or European cities, a trend that bosses are anxious to halt.

Aidan Mooney, the airport's head of network development, said: "We are expecting to see very positive growth in 2007 and beyond, particularly in the long-haul sector.

"A large number of international airlines understand the potential of Manchester Airport as the gateway to northern England.

"Over the next few years, we have a real confidence that our passengers' long-haul aspirations will be met with a raft of new services to new destinations."

Id take the MEN article with a pinch of salt.
They put a similar article in 18 months ago mentioning Thai, Cathay plus many of the airlines mentioned in this article. They came to nothing so I will only believe this when I see the aircraft at MAN. Qantas, JAL and SAA are just airport pipedreams. The MEN obviously has nothing better to write about.

Sorry to be a sceptic but hands up who I read the same headline on the M.E.N 20 years ago...!

"Manchester Gateway To The World......" it proundly boasted.

Well made some progress but sorry, still waiting in this corner of England. !

Also note the wording in the PR release, "Regional", "Northern", even comparisons with Liverpool.

Liverpool has been expoited because Manchester was undertandably reliant on BA, AF. LH etc and always believed in the BA spin that they eventually develop Manchester...it never happended !

Manchester never envisaged the impact of locost, BUT quoting comparions in a press release ......my god MAN have we sunk that low !

And another thing Marketing Dept - Please Please please start using words like international, cosmopolitan and major gateway.....

Manchester is now a really happening place , unlike Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham etc it looks and indeed feels like a microcosm of London... ...although I say that having noted the best bits of London !

It's about time the airport managment believed it themselves !

In answer to Scottie Dogs' question here

There has just been an announcement

Effective February 1, Dragonair's 11 weekly freighter services to Europe and the Middle East will be operated under the "CX" call sign through a wet-lease arrangement with Cathay Pacific.

Ba Man-jfk
 

If the CC do strike next week, will the only BA longhaul service outside of London be affected?

TURIN

No - it's a BaCon service and it won't be affected. Could be very busy as a result.

Vuelo
 

Great information provided on Long Haul @ Manchester.

It mention Qantas. They have said that they wont return to MAN . It was actually Alan Joyce of Jetstar who said QF wont do MAN, but instead when Jetstar get their 787s they will serve MAN as a matter of priority.

Jetstar will serve many destinations that QF dropped as marginal and Jetstar can do profitably with Lower costs!

Looking forward to Jetstar and the 787 !!!

Definately confirmed as starting long haul flights in june are Saudia with 777 twice weekly mon and fri i think coming via geneva. Also looking v likely are bellview 7 times weekly to lagos!! And 50 50 at the moment on kenyan with 767. Looking good at last.

It was nice while it lasted?!!
 

Heard today that Austrian are about to hand back their slot requests for the proposed 3 x daily to Vienna. It always was a bit of a no hoper,- from zero to three a day, were they MAD? :confused:
Also, and straight in the face of the M.E.N. Announcement a couple of days ago, is that Kenyan Airways have cancelled their request for slots on the proposed Man - Paris - Nairobi service. I wonder what else the M.E.N. have got wrong?? :{ :rolleyes:

That's why I used the word "other" - implying LPL was already in the list. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The MEN press release - well we've never seen one of those, beefing up a fantasy schedule, have we? Well, not since this time last year anyway.

Fact is, the place is expensive, dirty, complicated, congested, badly laid out due to piecemeal development, and badly managed, so any clean-sheet, green-field low-cost airport is going to do well against it as the customers (remember them, MAN?) use all their skills and tools to find the best airport that suits them, even if it means travelling a bit further.

KQ
 

Yes, that's what I hear as well - slots have been returned.

Can also confirm that the OS have been released.

It was always interesting over the years to see how BD use to regularly apply for multi-flights per day to Toulouse and then never use them. Of course as you know they are now coming off the route completely. What will they do with Brussels?

Well less than a week before the slot return deadline and it will be very interesting to see what else (if anything) is returned.

Terminal development plans................
 

I trust the mods will permit this bit of 'cut and paste' as it gives an indication of the planned development work scheduled for the near future. :)
"Ongoing Development
With traffic forecast to double to circa 42 million passengers per annum by 2015, we recognise the need to accommodate this demand in the most economic manner.
Terminals Immigration Hall upgrade
This is a project which is being rolled-out across all three terminals, but in the first instance at T1 and T2. This forms part of the renewal process and replacing of old equiptment across the whole of the arrivals process. The first phase of this project will involve introducing new immigration desks, flooring and screens within the immigration halls.
Terminal 1 Retail Project
This exciting multi-million pound project will totally transform the retail offering within Terminal 1, whilst providing a new purpose built main security check-point. The project will deliver an enhanced food and beverage offer located above the existing departures lounge and create an expanded duty-free and retail experience bringing the majority of shops into an airside location by making the T1 concourse airside. An new expanded security facility with space for up to 14 x-rays will be created on a new floor above the ground level check-in.
Terminal 1 Pier C Re-flooring
This project to be delivered Winter 06/07 will replace the carpet on Pier C with new flooring, so enhancing the customer experience.
Terminal 3 Baggage Sortation Enhancements
This multi-phased project will be delivered over the next two years to improve outbound baggage sortation infrastructure and in so doing provide a more robust system of delivering baggage from check-in to baggage make-up. The project involves linking currently separate T3 baggage sortation systems together and a host of other infrastructure changes aimed at delivering greater capacity and reliability to the system. In tandem the number of CUSS check-in machines will be increased by adding CUSS machines at T3 landside arrivals. Conveniently situated adjacent to the main drop-off zone, this facility will feature new CUSS units, a new bag drop desk and collector-belt into the baggage sortation system."

:confused: I think "Cut & Paste" apptly describes these innovative ideas of MA's management team to help the Airport handle 40m + passengers !!?
Why does it have to be accomadated in the 'Most economic' manner'? Yes economic consdierations have to be taken into account, but once again it appears that its the 'Strap a Portakabin on and that'll cure all the problems' approach to terminal capacity.
Come on MA, how about building a new building, or due to economics, extend PROPERLY the buildings you have i.e. Terminal 2 and Terminal 3. (Terminal 1 is no-hoper - it's got more levels than a quarry, and about as much water in it when it rains!)
However I am glad to hear that the many shades of ****e patchwork that they refer to as a carpet in Pier C is being replaced. Just taking it up and leaving a concrete floor, would enhance the customers experience and also the staff that work there, IMHO.:oh:
Next step replace the Patchwork taxiway system - more iron plates than iron plate making factory:rolleyes:

Taxiway repairs
 

Does the work that has been undertaken for the last few months not go some way to remedying the problem?

"circa 42 million passengers by 2015..."

It saddens me to say that I just cannot see passenger throughput being anywhere near that level. They need to add 19 million passengers a year within 8 years - no chance. I think they'll be lucky to hit 30 million by 2015.

I now live in Sydney, but pass through Manchester about once or twice per year - normally through T3 on the BA LHR service, but occasionally T1. I have to say that both terminals are fairly terrible when compared to other major airports that I pass through. It's not a good first impression for visitors to Manchester. Twenty years ago when Gil was running the show, I was extremely proud of my airport, but sadly not any longer.

Manchester Exile

Scottie, have you seen how much there is still to do? It's a loosing battle I'm afraid due to the past neglect that occurred on a large scale. To answer your question, "it has a little", but a soon as one piece is repaired another somewhere deteriorates faster. Also have you seen how long it takes to repair one piece of this system? Months pass by with the same old work going on. Didn't they completely relay a runway at Atlanta recently in a month and half, by working around the clock. Our lot seem to packup when it gets dark, which in winter doesn't give much of a working day! Taxiway Alpha is in a really bad way opposite the AVP and down to link AE. What needs to be done is to drive a new taxiway straight through the AVP parallel to the present one, for the whole length, to the Alpha link at 06L. Alas it appears there is not the will or forsight within MA to do this, as it's not a revenue earner!!
Have you ever seen such a mishmash in the parking of light aircraft and Executive jets? Taton parking area - ****e, Rompa area - ****e again, NEA far far too small - grass parking area WHAT A JOKE !!! Still I think that sums up the present leadership and has done for some considerable time:ugh:

KQ have definitely scrapped their plans for a Nairobi service and have returned their slots, along with Austrian Airlines.

Air Blue are apparently looking at either A330 direct services if they can get the aircraft, or if not then have heard they are looking at Manchester - Ankara - Islamabad with A321s with possible 5th freedom between Ankara and MAN.

No safari
 

I'm afraid that it has just been confirmed that Kenya Airways have pulled their MAN slots for this Summer, at least. No safari.

Re BA Sale Ex Manchester
 

Anyone noticed that there are some great offer's now on at the rather desperate great BA giveaway !

well there are if you you live within 30 miles of London...that is !

Put in Manchester and select North America or Europe and every single offer take you via LHR or LGW !

They really are a shoddy P**s P**r oufit !

Saudi to start 22nd June
 

On sale through the GDS is SV121/122 Jeddah/Manchester.

Flight arrives 1130 and departs 1400 Monday/Friday.

Good news.

Scottie Dog

great,does it bit stop at GVA.
also will that be a B777?

also will that be a B777?

yes

Roadworks continue
 

Looks as if the 'roadworks' are scheduled to continue for quite sometime.

Taxiway Delta now closed around Stopbar D8. Stands 205-208C all closed and 231-233. Also taxiway Papa closed. Work continues until 30th April.

As one controller has said, that makes Terminal 2 a heck of a big cul-de-sac. :{

Scottie Dog

Globespan announce twice weekly service to Johannesburg, starting November 2007. Flights already on sale.

CUSS machines
 

Could somebody tell me how the CUSS machines work at Manchester? We had them installed a few months ago at EMA, as apparently they were surplus to the requirements of MAN, and they're gradually being used more often. The area of contention is the handling agents. At EMA, Servisair are expected to provide a bag drop, for these machines, despite not wanting to use them, and it appearing the same way for the airlines. Do customer airlines/handling agents pay for them at MAN? Also who staffs them? At the moment the airport are using information desk staff at EMA for the CUSS machines.

Manchester Terminals
 

Having been a life long fan of Manchester Airport (if I can't fly from MAN" I'm not going") I am both saddened and embarrassed :\ to admit that the place looks faded. I recently flew out of Birmingham and was more than impressed by the modern terminal facilities although, even at a peak times the traffic flow was noticeably less than MAN. Despite local regional competion (not to mention Whitehall bureaucracy) Manchester still has huge potential but it may fail to attract the travelling public unless it is committed to a significant investment in vastly improved terminals.

Shocking News! Source of MAN's problems found!..
 

Geoffrey Muirhead CBE


Nuff said!


Sir George Cayley

Bmi return Brussels slots
 

Bmi had proposed to operate a 3 times daily service to Brussels, but they have now returned the slots. Does that remind you of the Toulouse slots from over the last few years - all talk and no action?
:ugh: