I'm not ATC, but I would think that it gives Thames a lot more space to move planes about.

I've never held at Alkin yet - if I read the plates correctly, I think the stack is only two planes deep.

I have had some pretty extended routing to the south, over Kent before turning downwind proper.

I believe more a/c are vectored right hand downwind for rwy 10 i.e. over Dartford/Sidcup and my house! than left hand. Probably for spacing. however during quieter times like sat morning a/c arriving from the north seem more likely to get the shorter left hand join. I also wonder if there is some favoritism going on within thames radar as the BA planes seem to get the shorter option where as the likes of Euromanx and Scot allways nearly always fly over my place when 10 is in use! Although it obviously gives the controller more time to decend the a/c from 4000ft down to 2000ft. A/c fly lower over Sidcup than they used to be before the zone was enlarged ie. 2000ft instead of 2500ft. :)

Mentioning Alkin..... An interesting sight on Sat afternoon.. An Oasis Boeing 747 400 trying to stay within the confinds of the hold for the Biggin airshow at 3000ft... I bet the biggest thing Thames has ever looked after! wow that was an unusual site over Swanley/ Dartford :eek:

Anyone comment on what was going on last night just after 6pm with a climbing Citation heading west, a VLM Fokker 50 going North and a 125 on long finals for 10......all seen low over Notting Hill in the space of 5 mins. Very unusual.

1. The 747 didn't work Thames - or ANY of the Biggin AIr Fair Traffic.

2. NO idea about your climbing Citation!

3. Runway 10. There are no changes to procedures for the approach.
http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/47391954.jpg

Quite simply, if there are departures of 10 (RED!) that climb to 3000ft (They have to because of the CAS) then there is no way you can go downwind left, north of the field. (Inbounds BLUE) Our Manual of Air Traffic Services says that you have to be level at 2000ft and at 180 kts or less by the time you are abeam the field. In the good old days we could go straight ahead off 10 (or rigth turn outs) but that has changed and aircraft must stay on the SID.

The CTA doesn't actually make a difference: Indeed, part of the local enquiry was that aircraft wouldn't actually be vectored on any different profiles, it just offers more protection for the traffic (esp 10 departures).

Mike - NO planes are preffered over an another. Certaianly not a Flyer! It is just luck how you arrive. LAM releases are becoming rarer (But pilots still bitch when told there position in the sequence despite LAM releases cutting 30-40 miles off the STAR!)

In short, LCY is just too busy nowadays to be as creative as once we were........

Alan

Thank you for the explanation, has it really been such a long time since I did left base onto 10 coming home from Edinburgh in the evening ? ! Oh well, I can also remember arriving on Dash-7s from Paris, so I guess I'm showing my age. They were a different style again, you felt they could probably do their entire descent and approach inside the airfield boundary !

Just for interest, what height are we typically at when returning from the north onto 10 and crossing the outbound traffic ? Presumably above 3,000, but beneath the Heathrow traffic. Or is the latter non-existent when on easterlies ? Sorry, but a 1:250,000 VFR chart and a Pooleys Guide is all I currently run to !

And WHY no straight ahead departures from 10 ? Just a reciprocal of 28 arrivals.

Not sure what you mean in your example - the inblunds through LAM are of course at 4000ft against the deps climbing to 3000ft. (PM if you want!)

When LHR is on Westerlies, they cannot come further EAST than the north-south line through LCY. We cannot be above 3000ft unrtil 3nm EAST of LCY and that line.

It is a shame that we have NEVER had any crews plugged in with us from the operators.

10 left hand downwind does occasionally happen - but there seem to be more and more aircraft!!

No idea why not SA of 10 - as you say it is reciprocal of 28 arrivals, and go-arounds can go straight ahead! :ugh: Noise abatement eh! (Though oddly when you are out of the MSA (1800ft)) we can turn you!

Jetstream J32 Ops into EGLC
 

Can any one confirm if the Jetstream 32 is cleared for London City Operations? on another thred there was a plug for a Guernsey-London City route to start up unless this aircraft is cleared to operate it is a non starter any way.

J32 into LCY
 

As far as I Know the J32 is not cleared for ops into LCY, but the aircraft you mentioned in your last IOM post is! Maybe this will be another of Blue's Routes, it was on their Customer Survey as a potential future route!

Alan - the 747 did work Thames on leaving the airfield all but for about a minute or so.. they vectored him to Detling before giving him a right turn over sevenoaks before handling him to Gatwick approach! Thanks for the other info :)

Red Bull Air Race 28-29 July
 

The Air Race appears to be taking place that weekend over the river right off the end of 28 !

While on Saturday they seem to be starting right after the airport closes for the weekend, it is carrying on throughout Sunday afternoon. How are things going to be handled ?

Past PPRuNe readers will know I was in St Petersburg, Russia, last year for the race, and it was cancelled at 24 hours notice :rolleyes: so I'm not holding my breath.

I understand the Jetstream 41 is cleared for LCY but not the JS31/32

BCI are regular visitors to Biggin Hill bur presumably these will have to be operated as private flights?

FC

Zone enlargement?
 

When was the zone enlarged? and why change the height from 2000ft to 2500ft?

Would it not make more sense to keep the a/c as high as possible for as long as possible for noise abatement?

Check your map, a 'new' Control Area was established to better contain arrivals and just as important, the departures within Controlled Airspace. The airspace is still far from ideal though?

Guernsey
 

I can't imagine a Guernesey would get a slot at the moment. If it was middle of the day then perhaps. Also looking at the airport's charges (www.lcacc.org) they have minimum charges at certain times which make it expensive for small aircraft to operate (cheaper for large aircraft)

The Airbus A318 has finally been cleared by EASA for LCY operations, as has the EMB Legacy and the Bombardier 605.

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/lond...ews-210607.htm


As has been reported elsewhere in a separate thread, VLM is rumoured to be a take-over target of KLM / Air France. Given the group's presence at LCY, particularly with regard to the growing Cityjet operation, some interesting anti-trust matters would arise. One interesting point would be if the EU would view LCY as a separate market or would assess it as an integral part of the overall LON market.

Well VLM have trounced KLM on the LCY-Netherlands routes so maybe if you can't beat them commercially you beat them with your chequebook.

VLM's success has been built up on the back of a service standard and style quite the opposite of the KLM/Air France mass-market, do-it-our-way, stuff you if you complain operation, so if they were taken over they would probably lose a fair percentage of their support.

Does anyone think we will see one in regular service in the near future :?

Hardly, but with work starting soon on the 4 new stands, you never know!!

A318
 

Can it park at LCY? Plus which airlines (apart from AF) have them?

LAN, Mexicana, Frontier and TAROM - none of the very likely to operate into LCY. However, the airport is, as far as I understand, mainly focusing A318 Elite operators.

As far as its size is concerned, it is 140cm shorter than the Q400 and 45cm longer than the RJ100, so the limiting factor probably is wingspan rather than length. Wingspan is 34.09m and thus 5.5m more than the Q400 and almost 8m more than the RJ100.

Forgot to mention that in addition to the A318, the E170 has also gained certification for LCY, which is probably more improtant given the number of European airlines operating the E-Jets.

http://www.abtn.co.uk/Jets_Gain_London_City_Approval

Article mentions that the E190 will gain certification for LCY towards the end of 2008 and Embraer hopes to replace the BAe 146/Avro RJ as the jetliner of choice for LCY operators.

Wonder if BA will replace the Rj's with the Airbus 318's for its subsidiary ?

Came back into LCY last night about 20.00, not the busiest time.

Vectored all round the South-East, then sat on the ground for 10 minutes, obstructed getting onto stand by queue of aircraft held awaiting taxi, then held in aircraft for 5-10 minutes because one on an adjacent stand had engines running, then once out, despite being against the main terminal we needed to be bussed to arrivals. It took said bus another 10 minutes for it to get going the 100m to the terminal door.

Is my favourite airport starting to "lose it" regarding its efficiency and convenience ?

Another "short" cut off the STAR through LAM then.....!??!?!

You say "not the busiest time" yet were vectored ectra miles, delayed whilst the queue of outbounds went etc etc.

Clearly a fairly busy time!!!?!?!!? :)

It seems there was some debate about these raised in a meeting in October 2006,http://www.bigginhillairport.com/BIG...utesOct_06.pdf see para 5.02
then
According to this meeting dated January 7th 2007 (see para 5.01) they had stopped.http://www.bigginhillairport.com/BIG...esJan_07_1.pdf

I seem to remember to have read somewhere that Lufthansa sells the morning flight from FRA into LCY more or less as "C-only". Is this true? If so, and as they are using an Eurowings BAe 146-300 in 3+3 seating, do they still keep the "no middle seat policy" (anything else would be quite unacceptable) ?

There's a lot of C seating (but not always to the very back of the plane - that's Monday mornings, if at all.
And yes, the middle seats are empty.

"Is my favourite airport starting to "lose it" regarding its efficiency and convenience ?"

I flew through on Friday and sailed through. It does depend on time of day and weather I have found. Did you notice fencing going up around the dock? The new work for the stands is my guess (unless anyone knows different?) The new stands should help delays. I also went through T1 at LHR the week before....don't get me started on the delays and problems there (there isa whole forum for this!)

Don't worry - if LCY really is going to operate in peak hours at 32 movements/hour, you won't need to concern yourself about being vectored all over the southeast.
You'll simply follow the STAR to ALKIN (or maybe even LOGAN) then hold for 20 minutes (and remember = "no delay") before being brought off under radar + speed control to be vectored onto the ILS.
Bit like it happens at the four bigger London airports!
Both STN and LTN were once quiet backwaters but except on rare occasions, the 'dive in and land quickly' concept has long gone. It's the price you pay for popularity, punters, planes and business success I'm afraid... :hmm:

Just did London City - Dublin - London City on Air France. I was a bit surprised that they were Irish registered aircraft, and that although the route was 'operated by City Jet', the pilots and cabin crew were clearly French. (The in-flight catering, however, was not, but the hour-plus delays with no information were very Gallic...)

How does that work, then? Apologies if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find anything relevant with search

R

OK, CityJet are a Dublin-based operator who quite a few years ago started on Dublin-Paris among a few other routes, got into a codeshare with Air France, then got into a franchise operation with them, and finally got bought up so are now owned by AF.

Their main focus moved from Dublin to Paris, but this year they have also started a hub at London City. Largest point on the network is still Paris, followed by LCY, with Dublin coming in third. You can do this within the EC nowadays.

Like many European operators their flight crews come from a wide range of countries, but if you are going to base at Paris you are going to have plenty of French crew. Some aircraft are triangle routed CDG-LCY-DUB-CDG during the day so the crews could come from any of those points.

Believe it or not when CityJet first started on Dublin to London City in the early 1990s they were a franchise of Virgin and their early 146s were painted up in the Virgin red livery. That didn't last too long.

Both VLM and City Jet have filed an application with the German slot-coordinator for flights from Frankfurt to London City, City Jet with a FRA based BAe 146-200, VLM with a BAe 146-300. Before anyone gets excited, it looks rather unlikely that they will any useful slots at FRA. VLM looks for two weekdaily flights, City Jet for numerous flights (4 or 5 rotations).

I seem to recall that the limiting factor was the height of the tail rather than anything else - though for what reason, I can't quite remember.

m.

CityJet profits
 

CityJet profits rise as operations at London City Airport expand

02.07.07
CityJet, the Dublin-based airline owned by Air France-KLM, made a profit of €21.7 million last year, up by more than 25% higher than the previous year. Accounts just filed at the Irish Companies Registration Office show turnover at the airline grew by 18.5% to €242.1m in the year to end March 2006.
The airline, which runs services mainly out of Charles De Gaulle Airport in Paris, recently announced a huge expansion of its services that will see it operating more than 70 flights every day, with a particular focus on London City Airport.
The majority of its turnover is from flights originating in Europe. Turnover here was up from €155m in 2005 to €188m last year. Turnover from its Irish operations increased by €1.2m to €25.4m.
The company's recent focus on expansion from London City Airport appears to be paying off with turnover rising from €23.8m to €27.9m. CityJet has recently announced that it will be offering flights to Geneva, Madrid, Milan Linate, Nice and Zurich from London City.

Does anyone know how the bhd route is doing i have heard there has been a recent increase in passengers.

In which case, why would Air France / KLM want to buy VLM?

For the peak time slots?

FC

I have done 4 round trips with Cityjet to/from BHD in the last two months. One flight was virtually full, another had about 20, the remainder about 10-12 pax. The 328 seems to suit the demand fine, not sure things would favour a 146 jet yet.

There are a number of ads around Belfast for the service, which is pleasing to see. Still no publicity I have seen at the London end.

Maybe KLM wants to take over vlm for more services to the netherlands due to the reduction of short haul services from heathrow next year(due to open skies).

KLM already had one go at enhanced services from London City to The Netherlands and were seen off by VLM, had poor revenue and retrenched to their current schedule.

The reduction in KLM services from Heathrow is not "because of" Open Skies. It is because Amsterdam have chosen to sell some of their slots there to the SkyTeam airlines from the US who can now use them. Not quite the same thing.

I presume KLM can find a way to keep any money so obtained out of the hands of Air France - selling the family silver is one thing, having some new and suspect marriage partner able to get their hands on the proceeds is quite another !