LONDON CITY - 2
 

Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...195147&page=15


There's quite a lot of chat elsewhere about the sale of BAConnect to FlyBe but we can think about the situation at LCY, where BA are retaining the operation, apparently with a residual Avro RJ fleet based in Edinburgh.

BA will have to get their fleet numbers just right which will make expansion/contraction difficult because there will be no other work for them.

Will they replace the Avros ? They are some of the newest around so no need to for several years yet.

Others are saying that BA would order A318s but as I understand it although it fits on the runway it's a nuisance on the stands, especially if several were in at once.

BA say they will expand at LCY but how can they ? There's no space left between 0800-0900 and any LCY route that doesn't operate at these times (eg BA to Milan) is always a poor performer.

what's the source of this info? A friend of mine that works at LCY says he doesnt know anything about these guys starting.

BA say they will expand at LCY but how can they ? There's no space left between 0800-0900 and any LCY route that doesn't operate at these times (eg BA to Milan) is always a poor performer.[/QUOTE]

Interesting times for LCY and BA. I know the airport has plans to build more stands over the dock which has planning permission. I guess this is a decision for the new owners? I would have thought this would take some months to build but it would allow BA and others to continue to expand. The airports master plan on their web site shows how they can expand.

Sion
 

Yep they did a winter Saturday season. Sion's good for 3 valleys and ski areas but miles from anywhere as a year round service

I think VLM have the most slots, Cityjet have a quite a few aswell! Watch this space.

Frank

Crans-Montana is just up the road (or rather mountain side) from Sion and has some of the best golf resorts in the world in Summer :cool:

I don't think that I am allowed to post a link. Just google the destinations and the airline's name, and their website pops up.

It has also been in the Travel Guardian in October:

http://travel.guardian.co.uk/activit...890062,00.html

Two posts moved to: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251119 and merged with the already existing thread.

I am afraid the "some months" to build the extension is more like "some years".

I am also afraid to advise, from a professional point, that you don't get a lot of extra aircraft parking space built out over a dock for each £100 million spent. And that's what this sort of work costs. LCY's problem, unlike say Heathrow, is that there is only the demand for this extra capacity for one hour in the morning and one in the evening, 5 days a week. Otherwise there's enough space for more services already. So these extra costs would have to be covered by the fees from 10 movements a week for each stand, and that just doesn't add up.

I hear that ScotAirways have reduced services from LCY and park a couple of Dornier's there.
That must cause LCY problems with parking?

I think there is one that is being towed over to the GAT every morning. That's about it.

I have had a look at the LCY timetable (ok sad thing to do i know!!) They have peaks of 2-3 hours in the morning and more like 3-4 in the evening as well as a lunchtime peak. Plus they seem to have 16 flights/day to EDI and 21 to AMS so those off peak periods are filling up! I have heard quoted somewhere that the stands would take 12-18 months to build so not available now but not that far away. I do agree with the comment about BA and managing their aircraft, their demand for slots and LCY's ability to provide slots. Will be a tricky time but is more a phasing issue than anything else?

True, but BA will need to find work for their 10 RJ100s in April 2007, not in late 2008.

We had delays again yesterday evening due to congestion on the ground and lack of stands. The morning rush does seem quite so manic for us on radar.

The evening rush is now busier and more drawn out than the past.

Afraid the timespan will be pretty long on these new stands/parking areas. It's not a nice greenfield site. Among other issues on this job in particular :

The need to do a detailed survey of the dock bottom and ground beneath so the contractors understand what they are digging down into. This will need a barge on site for a month or so (such will be the first indication of things going ahead). Until you do this nobody can be reasonably sure how much the works will cost and the new investors will be unable to give a go-ahead.

Sweeping the dock bottom where the works will take place for unexploded WW2 bombs. I'm not joking here, just look at how many have been found nearby, just in recent years, there were more dropped on the Royal Docks than anywhere else in Britain. I bet there are still a dozen or more in each dock.

The need to source a low-rise piling rig. Not common but there are a few available. You need one of these so you don't impinge on the glidescope (anyone sufficiently knowledgeable about the requirements to state how high you can go at this location without impacting aircraft movements ?).

Difficulty of access to the site, getting materials etc in. This one will be a pig for the contractor. You could barge materials up the dock but that again adds to time taken and greatly to cost as you have to double-handle everything.

You could ask Mowlem, who built the original airport, but the have disappeared from the construction scene now. When they did the original airport it was of course a vacant site and they could do what they want.

Finally, regarding the "12 to 18 months" quotes, never trust construction estimates that have a 50% margin :)

I think when they built the 28 hold they did a survey of the whole dock.

I remember the surveying boat being in the dock for a long time working its way up and down the whole stretch.

JC Ops :ok:

Scotairways have had aircraft based at LCY for at least 3 years. We have recently reduced some middle of the day schedules which apparently were non profit sectors, this has increased the number of A/C parked at city during the day but normally only two parked overnight which is standard for the base.
Does anyone know about rumours of the remaining city schedule at BAConnect being backed by RBS? Should this be true one would assume they would only contract one airline only. ie SA would lose their share of the business.:confused:

Re stands - i believe from memory (well friends memory!) that the whole dock was surveyed so that should speed up things. So summer 08 could eb a possibility? But yes, builders can take longer than they say! Re scotairways, I use them and BA (I dont work for RBS!) it's the choice of times that help me so i use whoever works best for my own schedule. Looking at the CAA stats, Scot seem to eb doing ok and they always seem to charge me lots of £££'s to travel with them!
I read somewhere that the EU approval for the new owners is due 23 November so they will have the keys (so to speak) soon after.

Yes, RBS have a corporate agreement with BA for air travel. Apparently a particular feature is there are a guaranteed number of seats per year on the BA EDI-LCY service for them at a fixed price, and so all their travel on this route goes this way.

BA can of course do a very wideranging agreement with businesses like this, this route being only one small part of the whole, which Scot Airways cannot match. As for me, whenever I go up to Edinburgh it is Scot every time. I like their style. I remember phoning their res centre in Dundee one evening when I noticed my secretary had booked me on the 7.30 am instead of the 7.30 pm the next day. No trouble, glad to help, "oh don't worry sir this one happens all the time". Afraid you do not get that from BA any longer.

It could be possible for Cityjet/Air France to look into a service like this:

Possible rotatios:
CDG-EDI-LCY-CDG

ORY-LCY-EDI-ORY

CDG-EDI-LCY (o/n)
LCY-EDI-CDG

ORY-LCY-EDI (o/n)
EDI-LCY-ORY

DUB-LCY-CDG
CDG-LCY-EDI (o/n)
EDI-CDG

DUB-LCY-DUB
DUB-LCY EDI (o/n)
EDI-LCY-CDG

We already operate in an out of LCY to and from DUB / ORY / CDG
It could be feasible to join a EDI somewhere in our network.
LCY could be our next base but i guess it will be in talks for a long time. Plus dont forget that the big bosses at AF would have a lot to say. I'm sure we are not really allowed to have our own routes we have to operate as AF.

How long with BA last on the EDI / LCY route after the merger?

Thanks

Frank

City Jet,

Well with WW saying that the LCY ops are a strategic part of the BA group I'd expect them to be around until at least 2008 when the RJ leases start expiring. Then who knows...........ERJ or A3.. He has so far ruled out the A318.

Moku
Why do BA need to replace the RJ100s? Why not just extend the leases?

In this month's Airliner World there is an intereting portrait of VLM Airlines. A few quotes:

- further expansion will concentrate on non-LCY routes as the airport has reached saturation. Routes under evaluation from ANR, RTM, BRU and LUX.

- over the next 12 month, VLM will trial a new, larger aircraft under wet-lease contract on a single route. Possible aircraft mentioned are a E170, a Q400 or an Avro RJ.

- Fokker 50s to stay for at least five years. Fleet renewal either by keeping the Fokker 50s over 2010 and adding a larger aircraft type or by introducing a single family concept in the 50-80 seat range.

- CEO quoted praising the Q400 and the ATR42/72, while lamenting that the ATR72 is not yet certified for LCY. Airbus A318 already ruled out. Concerns about second hand Avro RJs because of reliability issues.

Milan
 

I hear on the grapevine that after some uncertainty regarding slots at Linate, the AirOne Milan service is due to start on Monday. Certainly good for me and I will be a user and I would have thought good for alot in teh city and canary wharf.

Airport Sale
 

I see that EU approval has been given for the AIG buy out of LCY. I assume this means the new owners will get the keys now and the airport can start developing?

Just a simple question, but whatever business is it of the EU who the owner of any airport is ? There were no monopoly ownership issues.

Doubt it. ScotAirways never made money and then BA tried and made even less. That's why they shifted the operation to Edinburgh.

Rumour has it, over 350 movements in one day last week!

OTOH, British Airways needs to find some work for their 10 RJ100s inherited from BACON and some domestic runs seem to be a sensible approach. With BA's growing presence at LCY and the increasing number of domestic destinations from the airport, it might be worth another try. After all, what other destinations are there that could keep the RJ100s busy ? Maybe VIE or something like HEL, WAW or PRG, but the rest is already well covered by the competition.

Now don't quote me on this but I believe it's due to GE's interest in Aircraft leasing and engine making? Aviation in the broard sense and therefore automatically triggered a referral.

353 on Thursday 23rd November. Which for an airport only open 14hrs or so per day is pretty good (and averages out at 25 or so per hour) This was an increase of 16 on the previous record.

I now also understand that VLM have now topped 50 flights per day in/out of LCY (so 100 movements for 1 airline!)

london city movements
 

AlanM

Not bad indeed....believe the weekly movement total for London City was more than that for Luton...might need to park a few in the docks shortly!

Don't forget that the best part of those GBP 750M is debt. The new owners are likely to require LCY to make substantial cash pronto. I'd be surprised if revenue-enhancing and cost-cutting measures were not to be introduced in a very near future. And I'm afraid LCY will go down the BAA route, changing its focus from "customers first (and we wouldn't mind making some profit, mind you)" to "profits first so we can service our debt (there are no other airports nearby, so why bother with customers)".
:(

LCY has been in BAA mode for a while. The car park charges seem to have gone up at 25% per annum cumulative for the last several years.

I have always thought of them as offering a good customer focused service which you didnt mind paying for. That ahs always been their approach - offer good service and I for one don't mind paying.

By the way, the new AirOne services will be operated by Transwede with three ex airBaltic RJ70s.

That's what I was trying to say. The BAA approach is "offer :mad: service, make customers pay an arm and a leg anyway".
Well OK, I agree that GBP 6 as a minimum charge for parking at LCY is a bit rich. But, on the ops sid, at LCY I've never heard "there's no bus available", "you can't use that stand because we're short of staff", "we can't open all security lines", "sorry you're early, the baggage handlers will begin their shift shortly, and then we just might start unloading your luggage compartment" (LG 4401 is one of the first flights into LHR T2).

[QUOTE=tom de luxe;2995902]That's what I was trying to say. The BAA approach is "offer :mad: service, make customers pay an arm and a leg anyway".
Well OK, I agree that GBP 6 as a minimum charge for parking at LCY is a bit rich.

£6 for parking next to the terminal? costs me 6 times that at canary wharf and 10 times that at LHR and in both cases i have to walk further that i would at LCY. ANyway, since the DLR, I tend to leave the car at home and use that with my Oyster card. About £1.20!! Now that's value.

The minimum charge for parking (a car, not a plane that is) at LHR ist not GBP 60 (err... checking... no, it really isn't (yet). Phew, you never know with NCP these day). And yes, I agree that the DLR is better value and less stressful.
And did I mention I love LCY? :O

I usually find that chatting to pax alongside me and finding where they are travelling to/from, the DLR is quite irrelevant for them.

A few recent ones :

Enfield
Maidstone
Heathrow
Rural Cambridgeshire

Apart from the poor American routing Antwerp-LCY-LHR-Los Angeles none of these are practical using the DLR at all.

And we live over in Beckton, just far enough away from a DLR station for luggage to be pretty impractical. By the way, have you ever tried asking a black cab to take you from LCY over to Beckton :ooh: :uhoh: