KLM seem determined to become more like Ryanair and are now charging for a checked bag for economy pax!

I thought it was bad enough with the majors in the USA doing this. It's par for the course with LCCs but when carriers of KLM's stature decide to go down this road, others will follow and yet another deconstruction of a long time industry standard will disappear. The industry is really going downhill fast now.

For goodness sake, just because you have to pay for a bag doesn't really mean the industry is going downhill fast. Some people are still stuck in the old traditional ways... the industry is revolutionising.

I've always thought that extra charges for checked-in bags is a fair structure. The people who are costing the airline more to transport them by adding extra weight to the aircraft (so increasinf fuel use and cost) and increasing the risk of delays get charged more.

It encourages people to be more respinsible travellers. The people who travel more responsibly, eg. by avoiding checked-in bags when they are only travelling for a short time, being more cost, time and environmentally efficient are rewarded with a lower fare.

What utter simplistic cr@p. :ugh:

So I pay for my 22 kg checked bag, but the person sitting next to me who weighs twice as much as me, doesn't pay for their extra weight.

The person next to you may have just walked on board and sat down, While your 22kg checked baggage has had to be processed by maybe 2 to 3 people passed though security transported to the aircraft loaded into the hold.

So what? Do you know how much extra fuel a couple of dozen grossly overweight pax per flight costs the airline per day? Why should the rest subsidise them? Perhaps fares should be based on the individual's weight!

Checked baggage charges
 

How is this going to work? I am booked with KLM from BHX to Rio de Janeiro in May routing via Amsterdam, essentially a long haul flight. As I have already booked I would not think this charge would apply to me, but if i booked next week, would it?

Could be a recipe for disaster: having to pay for ONE checked bag to Amsterdam, and then what? Two bags up to 23kilo plus a carry-on. How much will that cost?

Obesity isn't really as avoidable as a checked-in bag that many, with some responsibilty, could do without.

How many people flying with Ryanair or EasyJet for instance will take a 20kg each? Probably not a lot! We take a max of 2 20kg and at a push, 3 15kg bags between 4 people (2 male, 2 female) for 2 weeks away because, like may people, we won't pay extra for luggage we realistically can manage without.

Given the chance to have a 22kg bag each for no extra cost, like near enough every person on the planet, we'd probably take advantage of the luxury or even feel obliged to get the value out of the total cost. But we can easily manage with much less and the charges make us more repsonsible, and if everybody could do that, think how much uneccessary weight, time and money they'd save!

Monty, it won't affect European sectors on through long haul bookings. It's purely if start and end of your journey is in Europe.

Relax. Apparently it is still free for all Flying Blue members regardless of their status, so one only has to enroll with their FFP (at least for starters, maybe it is only an incentive to push up membership numbers).

More utter cr@p from FRatSTN based on the fact that my family and I never took more bags than NEEDED for any trip even with a free allowance of 4 x 23kg.

I would appreciate you not to adress me in that tone purely as you don't agree. Remarks like that clearly show no subject related substance you can add to adress a valid alternative point to make.

I am using my family as an example of many. You hear about families all the time flying with an airline like FR and EZY who are concious about the amount of luggage they take to avoid the extra cost. In essence, people take less luggage and the airlines saves money. So unless you have any good reason why you feel that's not the case, then feel free to discuss!

Because KLM is not an LCC and should not allow itself to descend to that level. You're obviously a great admirer of RYR (probably an employee of theirs) and if you check my initial post I accepted that it's par for the course with LCCs. I use LCCs too (although arguably the more up market examples) and if I do I go with the flow. My point is that if legacy carriers such as KLM feel the need to go the same route as the LCCs instead of being a little more inovative, than as far as I'm concerned the industry IS going down the drain.

May I also point out that the original LCC, Southwest Airlines, which recently announced its 40th consecutive year of profitable operations, continues to include a free checked bag allowance.

It's a bit pointless using Southwest Airlines as a comparison. They are in a completly different market and one where different strategies have been adopted.

Charging economy passengers for a checked in bag on short-haul flights doesn't now make KLM an LCC. Package holiday and charter flights like Thomson charge for bags and they are not accussed of turning into LCCs. Even Jet2 considers itself as a "cost concious lesiure airline" although in fairness is still generally seen as an LCC.

There is more than just checked-in bag costs to and LCC. They have a basic service, charge extras for any possible extra service they can think of, eg. priority boarding, reserved seating or SMS text confirmation and have cost saving/profit making initiatives like smaller hold baggage allowances and have quick turnaround times to maximise aircraft flying time etc etc etc...

With KLM, customers can still expect to get the service and flying experince they expect from an national flag carrier. They will have a comfortable flight, civilised boarding system and more importantly, still offer different classes and will always maintain a hub with worldwide connections in Amsterdam, unlike the vast majority of LCC's who operate with the point-to-point model.

KLM is still a world apart from a European LCC and KLM, Air France, BA etc. are never going to become quite like Ryanair and EasyJet.

And by the way, no, I don't work for Ryanair.

I'm sorry, but I just can't get my head around many of your arguments. Unfortunately, I have no further time today.

Just searched for a KLM european ticket in September. The very cheap = good value ticket, includes 23kgs hold baggage and 10kgs hand baggage. That, plus the fact that you take 2 pieces of hand baggage e.g. tax-free or computer, and a coat or umbrella etc. I'm not sure where this debate has come from. I'm sure, if the route was available with either of the main LoCo's, they could not match the service like for like. In my experience the LoCo's usually win if you travel hand baggage only. However, HiCo carriers usually have more flights per day, and daily, on the major routes, and thus a choice of times, often at more convenient ones. This IMHO has a value too in the overall cost. Having to check in at 05.00 on a holiday and coming home at 01.00 is often not worth the €50 you might save. OK a family could be €200, but knackered kids and wife are a holiday killer. The comparison between the LoCo's and traditional carriers really brings the truth about cost and value into stark reality.

FRat STN - I think HT's post re Southwest was a comparisson with other LCCs and not with KLM.

Hotel Tango

Your views are valid. Unfortunately, FR/STN is one of their zealots. They took a beating yesterday and, true to form, lash out at any and everything.

Can you image if they had taken over Aer Lingus, what I call a proper airline!

I don't see how that's "valid"

It's not my problem if somebody else doesn't seem to agree whether I think something is good or not.

But lets end it at this... It's a bit pointless now to even discuss this, because nobody is going to change their mind on what they think anyway!

As a regular flyer, what I see more and more is outright abuse of the cabin baggage allowance rules.

Recently went on a flight with my wife for the weekend using a major carrier. Our inwards flight to the hub was delayed by weather and we were the last to load. When we got to our seats we could not use the overhead lockers because they were full with bags larger than should have been allowed.

As a result we had to wander up and down with the stewardess looking to find/make room further along.

Now what annoyed me were the number of business travellers who were quite simply taking the p*** with the size of their cabin bags. Add to this the large rucksack users and now you have a developing problem which will only be made worse as people now try to push the bag size rather than pay. WE followed the rules but ended up being "punished" by those whose attitude appears to be to raise two-fingers to the rules.

I do not recall one single airline ever refusing to let someone into the cabin with what is clearly above their limit as I believe that their policies to the cabin crew are "not to make an issue of it" thereby pandering to the selfish group who will abuse any facility and reinforcing their attitudes.

So BHD is confirmed...

KLM to begin scheduled services from Belfast City Airport. | Belfast Travel News

...two more to go. Any rumours floating around?

Now what annoyed me were the number of business travellers who were quite simply taking the p*** with the size of their cabin bags. Add to this the large rucksack users and now you have a developing problem which will only be made worse as people now try to push the bag size rather than pay. WE followed the rules but ended up being "punished" by those whose attitude appears to be to raise two-fingers to the rules.

As one of those Business Passengers you refer to with such disdain, I probably have paid a lot for more than you for my flight and am probably connecting from a long haul flight on a Business Class ticket which gives additional allowances. Allowances I need for long trips.

pwalhx

The issue here, in my opinion, isn't "the rules" it's the safety aspect of having such ridiculous quantities of baggage stuffed into the cabin.

It will only take one survivable accident, where needless lives are lost because the carry on bags prevent an efficient evacuation, and just watch the tables turn.

Is this only on the legacy carriers? The Lo-co airlines as far as I can see do police the cabin baggage vigourously as I frequently see them weighing cabin baggage at the gate any over the limit are put in the hold (with a baggage charge as well). The staff are eager to do this for they get a %age of the charge.:rolleyes:

KLM MD-11 routes for this summer?
 

Does anyone know if the MD-11 will fly only to Toronto
and Montreal this summer?Are there any other routes that have a dedicated MD-11 service?
The KLM states that the aircraft is being
phased out and I would like to have the chance to fly as
a passenger with the trijet.

Toronto, Montreal and Los Angeles it seems.

I think San Fran is another one, definitely is during the winter (Sept onwards) as I too am looking at doing it!

I wouldn't - old planes with a so-so safety record in modern terms

I always found them cramped and noisy TBH

Yup MD-11 is really noisy and pretty pants to fly on to tell you the truth. The thought of long haul again on one of those fills me with woe

I would agree, they are very noisy down the back and not very comfortable. Aren't BA launching the 787 on Canadian routes? Why not have your first 787 flight rather than last MD-11. (Present issues resolved of course!!)

If you've flown one of BA 767's recently you'd understand why they are replacing them ASAP with 787's.....................

Does LHR count as a KLM MD11 route ?;)

Any news on any more Uk announcements?.
They have yet to tell us who they all are.
Given MME and its poor performance perhaps they will move the flights to Dsa.
Wider audience and if using a fokker 70 it should fill up nicely.
Also why have they never flown Direct to Sumburgh/Scatsa. I thought Klm still had avro aircraft. Or could the small fokker be ol for the runway up there

Onyx,

Sumburgh or Scatsta?

Scatsta isn't used for scheduled services anyway, bar the scheduled crew change oil charters. Personally I do not know why they can't use SCS in some more enhanced way for schedules, as (from memory) it's closer to Lerwick than the 40-odd mile trek to & from LSI. Although I don't know how much it would take to carry out any upgrade/further upgrade at SCS, & I'm unsure of the topography around the place. Shetland doesn't have any high 'hills' as such, but the land around might still be challenging...not to mention the weather!

I doubt very much Sumburgh, as KLM would just use ABZ & passengers for LSI change at ABZ.

Well regarding Scatsa Id read somewhere it was extended to take the BAe avroliner.
There must be some equivalent in the Klm fleet.
But my main question about Sumburgh was the very fact there is no direct link to what is meant to he a fairly busy airport for oil workers.
Surely it would provide a better service direct.
Would Klm be able to get the E170/90 in and out of there ?.

KLM to Shetland? Sheesh, where to start?
1) Shetland has a population of only about 20,000. There's no way that would support an Amsterdam service
2) There won't be anything like enough offshore workers on platforms off Shetland who travel there from continental Europe to justify a service direct from Amsterdam
3) Even if there were, the oil companies would want direct control over the schedule so it fed into helicopter flights and could be cancelled/amended at short notice. KLM wouldn't do that.
4) Taking the continent-based workers off the Aberdeen-Scatsta charters and the KLM schedule to Aberdeen would increase the costs of both - oil cos and KLM won't want that
5) Scatsta has one runway with LDA 1155/TODA 1319m - not sure about F70or E170 but tight for any jet apart from maybe Avro RJs. It also has no IAP to runway 06 - requires circling approach with hills all around:eek: Minima for a Cat C are 570ft on 24, 890 on 09
6) Sumburgh has ILS on 27 and various on 09, with minima 267/300ft, plus runway length about 100m more than Scatsta for both t/o and landing.
7) Given the roads, distance from Scatsta to Lerwick vs Sumburgh to Lerwick pretty much 6 and half a doz.
NS

Was BHD not mentioned as route for klm?

Thanks for clearing that up. I was kind of thinking that was all about Klm in the after reading how Ryanair had planned to operate from Stornoway , But fell out with the authority over tryi g to obtain lower fees.
Plus I read somewhere theyd requested some improvements etc.
But however small. The western and Northern isles still collectively have a fair sized population.
Probably more than the Faroes and they have bought two A319's along with the rest of their fleet. All operating in Similar terrain.
My point is that it must be an expensive business for islanders to go on a package holiday ala Thomson. As its either a ferry or internal flight and thst is only as far as Abz.
Hence I asked about Klm .