BA still "Too Expensive to Run"5000 jobs to go ???
 

BA staff fear 5,000 job cuts

by Juliette Jowit, transport editor
Sunday December 14, 2003
The Observer

Thousands of jobs are to be axed by British Airways amid growing fears about the company's finances.
The airline, which has debts of £4.8bn, is
to introduce the measures in the face of rising costs and falling income from ticket sales.

The company, which is struggling to cope with a world economic downturn and competition from low-cost airlines, will publish its plan in January, it was revealed last night.

The programme will include tough cost-cutting and thousands of job cuts. Last night a BA spokesman refused to comment on speculation that the job losses could be as high as 5,000.

However, another source said the 5,000 figure was credible. 'It [the figure] might be higher, it might be lower ... It's not an outlandish estimate,' he said.

Two years ago BA announced a drastic cost-cutting programme, including sacking 13,000 workers. Since then, revenue has dropped even further by £1.9bn.

To add to their problems, BA last month revealed a £1bn shortfall in its pension scheme, which will cost another £133m a year to put right.

And last night a senior company official admitted income has still not picked up as expected this year. 'It's looking a bit better now but I think everyone in the airline is so cautious because we have been there before,' he said.

Rod Eddington, chief executive, revealed that the early action plan would be published before the usual date in March in a letter to BA's 46,000 staff. He said that the airline was still suffering the impact of terrorism and war in Iraq, an economic downturn and competition from low-cost carriers - forcing BA to slash ticket prices to fill its planes.

Results for the first six months of the year, showing profits dropped from £310m last year to £60m, were 'disappointing', he said.

'In short our airline - despite everyone's best efforts in recent years - is still too expensive to run, particularly in these economic conditions.

5000 to go?

Start with the 'Dirty Tricksters'....... For until their lingering taint is expunged once and for all, ba will never have a decent image to many.

Good luck to all the flight crews and cabin crews who work so hard to provide a quality service despite jurassic mis-management from the Waterworks.

They fire, and then hire again... Cheap labour i guess...

:rolleyes:

BA Still "Too Expensive TO Run" 5000 jobs to go
 

What a load of excrement! I've been trying to get BA Gatwick/Palma tickets for January. Hardly a single seat left... £189 one-way too! Time for a re-name (BOAC maybe?) and surrender domestic and Europe before it's all lost. Have also tried many other destinations (international too)...it seems hardly a seat to be had. If they cant put bums on seats maybe they should be asked for proof! bm

The woes at MY Travel are small compared to Big Airways whom were handed most of there infrastructure, slots and routes etc. They did not have to develop from a minow.:ooh:

That'll be farewell to us at BA Citiexpress then.

Can't say the BA experience has been uplifting, great Flight Crews, and totally inept, useless, posturing, overborne, arrogant, patronising management. I have never ever worked for a more pathetic bunch of tossers!!!!!!! :mad:

See you all on the dole queue.

hapzim

Disagree. Not underestimating the problems at BA at all, but a loss of let's say £200m to a company valued at about £2bn, is small fry compared to a loss of £900m for a company vaued at £60m.

I suspect that BA will be around longer than MYT (maybe not much longer, but longer nonetheless). Fancy a wager?

You guess wrong Airway. BA haven't made anyone redundant in donkeys years because the more militant unions will go out on strike. Thats part of the problem. They need to shed thousands of jobs (and nobody will miss them in many of the admin roles), but the unions see BA as a job creation program, not a company.

BoeingMEL, Gatwick/Palma is a GB Airways route, not technically BA. I'm not sure what the rest of your post is trying to say. Everyone knows the loads are great. Its the fact that the yields are **** thats the problem.

Uncle Silas,

Couldn't agree more,

'Can't say the BA experience has been uplifting, great Flight Crews, and totally inept, useless, posturing, overborne, arrogant, patronising management. I have never ever worked for a more pathetic bunch of tossers!!!!!!!'

Sad thing is if they do get rid of the more inept they seem to turn up at GB Airways. Never seen a more clueless bunch anywhere and I have worked for some real losers in the last 25 years.

It seems that people want to fly, e.g. record passenger numbers on other carriers, for some reason they don't want, or can't or choose not, to fly BA.

Seems inconceivable that if some aircraft are full there is no price elasticity.

Maybe the reason is ipss poor marketing/sales compared to the low cost operators who have at least realised you can't sell if you keep it all a big secret. This is why GB's pricing is so out of kilter with the market.

You can bet if BA gets rid of people it will be front line staff, the management will be looking after themselves. Just more mayhem to piss the BA customers off even further.

It's got to the stage where if the unions say:

"We're not going to allow you to make 5000 redundant";

then the reply is likely to be:

"Tough! You go on strike and there'll be 50000 redundant."

May sound flippant but if they strike, we won't last long. If we lose 5000, we may survive.

More than likely, a few more than 5000 need to hit the bricks.

Good place to start...20% pay cut for flight crews, 30% for cabin staff.

Get rid of the loafers, especially in the cabin.:ok:

Why do I go off a thread as soon as 411A sticks his nose in? Are they any of PPRUNE's discussions on which you don't have an opinion?

Having put 411A on my "ignore list" I enjoy Pprune once again without the inputs of that twit.

Would recommend it to everyone

Woody, thanks for that, I didn't even know PPRUNE had that function. Now the thread looks better already :D

You have no idea 411A. :rolleyes:

Hey woodpecker, great tip!

For all your faults 411A I must acknowledge the fact that you do have a brain, you wouldn't be able to rile people quite so much without one.

A 20% pay cut for flight crew, well that may help but look at the flight crew to 'other' ratio for BA and I think you will find that a 1% pay cut elsewhere will have a similar effect. That, and it will leave front line passenger meeting staff with a will to live...

A 30% pay cut for cabin crew, well that means none of them can live within 2 hours of London so your standby measures must change. Your repeat custom will fall due to the enormous level of 'pissed-offness' amongst your front line team and the reflection of that on the punters.

Drink your appaling American "whiskey" and offend the other wonder beings in Sedona all you like but leave us alone would you.

Sorry to rile 'em up so much Spearing Britney, but mainline airlines just have to cut costs, to bring 'em in line with the likes of Ryanair and Easy.
If not done, the entire company will disappear, like it or not....and many won't.

Many live in a dream world where they believe that the 'large' can't fail.
These folks are sadly mistaken.

Bite the bullet now, or watch the entire show go down the drain.
Just the way it is.:sad:

Attempting to cut pay would certainly cause industrial action - and quite rightly too. But cutting back on the managers, overpaid and useless flesh-pressing suits at the Waterworks is overdue. As is firing the last of the Dirty Tricksters.

Turning to the question of cabin manning, if you run a cheap-as-chips set up like RyanAir or easyJet, with minimum levels of cabin service as a policy, then you probably don't need anything more than the legal minimum number of cabin crew.

But if you're offering a multi-class service, to feed and water all your punters on shortish sectors will be highly labour intensive. So you may need more than just the minimum.

Whilst there is a high demand for low-cost airlines, there is still a high demand for business flights with more leg room, higher quality food, higher levels of service than the LCAs need to offer. So there's bound to be some market polarisation; the trick for ba is to get its share of the top end revenue without losing economy class customers to the LCAs. How? That's down to marketing/branding/image and sales management.

But whilst the Dirty Tricksters are still around, you won't be getting my custom, Skippy.

Just the way it is:(

Personally, I don't think pay cuts are going to be on the cards: industrial relations are too poor to stomach them. Nor do I think there are going to be cuts in front-line staff (C-in and CC) because the firm's currently recruiting for both those areas...

No, the cuts will come from elsewhere. Remember that the pensions mountain is insurmountable as it is, so reduced staff costs (ergo reduced company pensions contributions) are a pre-cursor to dealing with that.

The figure of 5,000 won't all be actual jobs - it'll be MPE. So no overtime, and redistributing existing jobs elsewhere. So if (say) Finance needs to lose 100 MPE then 50 people moving to Marketing could do the trick.

I think the question is rather... Why did Future Size and Shape (part 1) when we were promised "This'll be the end of the job cuts" turn out not to be true? It doesn't bode well for trust.

411A

What made your last post above so much more "normal" than your usual rylers? Seems like you can easily adapt to pressure from others.

Point is 411A that a lot of the pilots are earning the same or less than Ryanair or Easy. Its the 60K quid tug drivers and 40K pursers that seem to be the problem. There is no added value there....

It's true that some of the cabin crew salaries are astonishing when compared with other airlines.
For example married Pursers living in 700K houses with children at public school.

Even new joiners at LHR nett ( and I mean nett not gross) £1850 per month minimum . Often they take home £2050. Now that's more than most first officer jobs in the uk.

However -some of the real problems at BA are;
(i)the "back office " overheads are still enormous.
(ii) the pension defecit
(iii) vast numbers of part time staff ( it's undisputed that two part timers are far far more expensive to employ than one full timer) Over 50% of the cabin crew are part time ( part timers astonishingly have the highest sickness levels)

BA would love to acquire an international rival in order to slash costs and put the merged entity on a stronger footing.

The imperative is to improve marketing (should be easy give n the mediocre standard of BA's current efforts) and the quality of customer service. "The business is about how to get the customer to willingly pay a premium for your brand, how to get the consumer to pay more to go with you than with someone else."

Only when BA gets this right can it hope to survive in a short-haul market driven by the budget airlines, Ryanair and easyJet.


I have every confidence in Rod . I think he and Broughton will take on some of the ridiculous working practices and BA will come through the pain to be successful again.

Lets face it we all know where the jobs cuts will be/need to be and that's the management at Waterside! The front line staff as always are working to the maximum, hence another 450 Cabin Crew just been taken on and most pilots working an average of 870 hours a year!

I'm sure if BA actually do this time make 5000 managers redundant it will make the difference needed. Unfortunately it seems every time they say they are going to cut the managers they re assign them to other jobs but on the SAME salary. Moving a manager to Ticket Desk on £35K, what sense does that make, especially as the real ticket desk are on a lot less sitting right next to the so called managers.

Come on Rod clear out the excess in the officers, and quick.

BA have lost the plot a long time ago. Any successful business they get their hands on is ruined and making a loss in an astonishingly short period of time.

Why don't they just hand over all their LGW short-haul operations to us at GB Airways so that we can make these routes profitable once again, thereby letting them save face and concentrate on their long-haul operations?

Let's face it, BA haven't been worth "tuppence" for quite a few years now.

They seem at the moment to be handing short-haul at LGW to Easyjet!

Hmmm, so is this job cutting just for the managers etc? I'm worried now...I've just moved from Australia to the UK to be cabin crew for BA! I'm in trouble if I loose my job!

Flying_sarah747 unless you have family in the UK, I cannot for the life of me imagine why you moved to the UK - or were you just not rude enough to get into QF!! :E

Decline of the industry
 

If this rumour is true then it's a very sad day for this industry. BA is not unlike many other major carriers in having struggled to adapt to the low cost carriers however life is about to get a lot tougher for the low costs.

BA has now dramatically cut its fares on all routes and is now starting to hit the low costs where it hurts. They are fast establishing themseles as an airline which delivers a superb standard of service at a price marginally above that of those who herd you onto their filthy aeroplanes and fly you to an airport nowhere near where you wanted to go. The public are realising this and that's reflected in the load factors.

Load factors are running at record levels and the airline is now back making a small profit in sharp contrast to other flag carriers. The share price is up 25% in a month on the back of this.

The 13000 headcount reduction was mainly taken from the back office. There is a lot less dead wood than there once was, although still too much bureaucracy. If a further 5000 do go lets hope this can be achieved on a voluntary basis.

It's about time pilots realised that many of those who they like to portray as useless bureaocrats in Waterside are making a significant contribution to turning the airline around in marketing, IT, Sales, Revenue Management, eBA and the like. I should know, I'm married to one of them.

Things aren't perfect at BA, many love to predict its demise, but I'll lay money on it still being around long after any of us.

Never underestimate BA's power to innovate and respond.

Desk-pilot

A friend of mine is part-time cabin crew at LHR. She did 8 sectors last year and earned 9K. (She is 33%) Thats a better hourly rate than Rod....

Never underestimate BA's power to innovate and respond.

I choked on my tea then!

WWW

Flying Sarah -It would be a pity if forums such as this and publications such as the Daily Mail made you fear for your new job. BA are short of cabin crew. many are retiring and leaving for other reasons. You have joined the productive end of the business ( I assume you are full time!).. and I'm sure you will be free from redundancy.
Welcome ! Enjoy!
PS - as others have asked - what on earth made you leave sunny wonderful Aus to work in the Uk???

Seems a few here are indeed aware of the rather high cost of the (mostly) ineffective/incompetent cabin crew.
A good start would be to get rid of the lot, and start over with new hires, on much lower salaries.
May be difficult (contracts, unions) but could be done by taking the company into the UK equalivant of the US chapter eleven bankruptcy, abrogate all union contracts (with the courts approval), and start afresh.
Pilots would be given the choice of a pay cut or dismissal, with cabin staff totally replaced, unless they were willing to accept massive salary reductions.
A total house cleaning of support staff as well would be needed, especially at headquarters.
Middle managers would fast disappear, along with the staff needed to keep them in place.
BA could become a premier example of an efficiently run, profitable aircarrier, with staff rewarded with large profitsharing payments following successful business quarters.
In the end, there is every likelyhood of vastly increased renumeration for those that remain.

Will this happen? Will the deadwood that has plagued BA for so many years be removed?

Don't hold your breath.

BA's innovation
 

www,

Your post certainly made me smile ;-) but look at the evidence:

World first transatlantic jet service
Worlds first supersonic passenger service
Worlds first fully flat bed in First Class
Worlds first fully flat bed in business class
One of the first airlines to offer e-ticket, the first to offer it on international routes
First airline to put 100% of its staff through a putting people first programme and revolutionise its service delivery
First airline to employ a specialist wine buyer and leading international chefs to gain competitive advantage with superior food and wines bought at lower prices
First airline to offer four class service on international longhaul routes so offering an enhanced economy option
Worlds first personal video library on board in First Class
World's first well being in the air programme
World's first on board internet and email service
World leading flight and cabin crew training facilities used to train over 100 other airlines worldwide
First airline in the world to automate back office processes using e-forms and other e-working initiatives
BA's Waterside HQ was one of the first buildings in the world to provide a wireless infrastructure, so enabling workplace mobility
State of the art world cargo facility opened at LHR
BA has also recently won the best airline travel award for the 16th year in succession along with 6 other awards including best First Class and Best Business Class.

For all its faults, BA has demonstrated time and again its ability to surprise the industry. Personally I hated most of the ethnic tailfins, but look out of your window at the liveries of many of the world's airlines and you'll see the influence BA has had and how many have followed their lead. BA is a company which continually reinvents itself because at the heart of it all it has a tremendously gifted, loyal, talented and passionate workforce who believe in it and wouldn't want to work for anyone else no matter how much money was on the table.

Desk-pilot

Have to agree with Desk-Pilot. As an ex-nationalised airline it's innovation record is impressive. Especially compared with most of Europe's other flag carriers whose product and service levels are pretty uninspiring. For example what passenger was excited by the merger of Air France & Alitalia. Compare that to Virgin & SIA. Flat bed business class is a real plus. Also the cabin service (including the franchisees), whether flying up front or at the back is always friendly and professional.

Having said that, dealing with BA on a business level you feel you are still talking to an overstaffed government entity.

Er.. Carnage Matey.

There are several hundred ex BA engineers who were forced out of the company last year, BHX, MAN & BFS to name a few examples.

Technically, yes they were voluntary redundancies, however when faced with a letter TELLING one to take the severance or be sacked it does pong a bit.

Oh, and the trade unions did bu**er all to back up the staff, that is why many have torn up their Amicus membership cards!:mad:

411A, I understand where you are coming from with the paycuts amongst staff in AA and others in the US this year helping to lower cents/sm's and avoid CH11 (even though Dastardly Don and Malicious Mullin had other plans for exec compensation), but you are off the mark addressing BA's Flight Deck crew this way. Have you any idea of the cost of living around Heathrow, or HKG (Cathay being another of your favourite targets)? I'll clue you in, having been based at both in previous lives:

far more than even Scottsdale!!!

I know you flew in Asia, but living there now is far more expensive than when you were there, as it is within 2 hours of London. I have a 900 sq.ft apartment in London on the river which I bought new 20 years ago for 100 grand sterling - it's now worth 600k. A new hire singlie for BA just could not afford to live near LHR.

My point is the survival of the high professional standards you so frequently espouse as having youself depends on attracting the best candidates in the future; there is strong evidence that this is already being eroded amongst US college grads. Aviation, with it's future of low pay, no pensions, and a track record of inept and dishonest management, no longer "cuts the mustard". Stock-sharing holds no attractions either after Enron and UAL. Where have you been?

The situation is similar in JFK; I used to share a crash pad with Jet Blue, etc, 'cos they couldn't afford anywhere in NY. They get a disbursement of JBLU stock, which has lost a bunch in recent weeks, must to the worriment of my friends.

Oh, BTW, the average BA 747-400 Snr FO earns less than a 717 FO for AirTran - a supposed LCC.

Frequently there are crumbs of reasonable thought in your posts disguised as sniper shots, but in this case I believe you waded into a sinkhole at full speed...

I just can't imagine insulting the entire group of BA cabin crew like you did. I know several excellent BA cabin crew...at least get to know some of them personally before opening fire. Where I went to school in the UK, I would have been given a "f" grade in etiquette class for some of your posts, and shunned at happy-hour as a loud-mouthed "know-all". Surely that's not the way you intend to come across, is it? I'll continue to give you the benefit of the doubt....:hmm: :suspect:

411A
There is no equivalent of Chapter 11 in the UK.

You are, like one of your fellow countrymen, assuming that 'American Values' are universal, when in fact they are anything but.

By the way, BA is doing rather better than some airlines are alleged to be faring.

As for the 'ineffective' cabin crew, I must have been lucky to avoid those on the 197 sectors I have flown with BA over the past 20 years, where BA cc have set the standards that some other north atlantic carriers have dismally failed to meet, with the honourable exception of Virgin.

Stansted = new runway (it was always going to happen)
low cost = future of commerical aviation in europe, most profit, most expansion.

BA have laid out the red carpet for easyJet by selling off GO.

Putting aside the anti - BA rhetoric, the jealousy and the plainly ignorant postings it is true there are many things wrong with BA.

Rod Eddington is well aware of the problems we face not least the reluctance of the workforce to see what we are truly facing.

BA as a company is as much a victim of its past as the current economic and competitive climate. By that I mean the overmanning, the restrictive practises, the demarcation, the top heavy workforce, etc.

Like many long established and previously nationalised industries there is a lack of belief that we are subject to a very different world from 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Those days are gone forever and unless collectively the workforce, and by that I mean unions realise it, and lead their members responsibly in facing the inevitable major changes, we have little hope of surviving long term.

Ditching the mindset that one's own department is very efficient and ALL the problems are in other departments would be a good start.

The examples of some of BA's innovations, stated by desk-pilot, illustrate how, when we are good, we are up amongst the best. There are vast numbers of people in BA who are hard working and decent.

For all our sakes I hope that minds are open when presented with the plans in January, it won't be pretty but I believe we really are at the make or break point for the company.