Left2primary

Well how about the common tactic of combining two service rounds (meals/bar then tea&coffee) into one to reduce service time in direct contravention of the service standard guidelines? The whole cabin can then be done in two sweeps instead of three, allowing extra time to disappear off to the bunks on shorter sectors which do not have bunk rest scheduled. Or even better, getting some kip in the closed off First cabin with over half the crew asleep instead of performing the required cabin patrols? Frankly on some BA flights I've done you'd have more chance of finding a crew member on the Marie Celeste. The CAA didn't give them a b******ing for the fun of it.

BA operated with 16 cabin crew on a 747 when there were almost 400 passengers. A 17th was added when the First service was changed to a more labour intensive task in the galley. When First was changed back the 17th person stayed on board. After 911 the number was dropped to 16, but the aircraft only have around 320 passengers now. Why should it be a struggle?

Bellerophon,

Miss your Concorde do you?
Now that they have been parked (should have been turned into beer cans), does tending the garden and concentrating on spelling fill your daily schedule?

BA is DOOMED if it cannot, as an operating company, pull up its socks and fly right.
20% pay cut for all staff, and a total goodby to an unneeded 20% would be a good start.

Vultures are closing in now.:ooh:

Oh yes, forgot to mention, on the B747, twelve CC should be enough. What are the rest for...one wonders:oh:

...after all these years of listening to the mean-spirited rantings of 411A, I thought it time to offer a counterweight. If for no other reason than to try and balance the opinion of us 'yanks' in the minds of the majority of PPRUNE members. I am astounded that a 'Fountain Hills' based 'Walter Mitty' such as 411 feels he is an 'authority' on.....well, just about EVERY subject to do with aviation....! On behalf of all of the other aviators in the US, I apologise to those hard-working airline employees who 411 feels have marginal value and who's families should all be on food-stamps.

411A, your heartless and vitriolic comments (...always couched in your 'realist' tones...) are nothing more than the result of a bitter and twisted individual who has failed in achieving his professional desires, and resents those that have achieved their goals after many years of struggle at great cost in money and effort. I admire the European airlines like BA that have innovated throughout their history, and am distressed that the economics of the industry have been undermined by the ruthless and short-sighted individuals who have now seemingly brought their own airlines to ruin in this country (AA/UA), solely to line their own management pockets. 411A, the individual airline pilot/FA/Dispatcher, etc are NOT the problem as you seem to insist. For a B744 Captain to earn $250K a year is not unreasonable considering the number of pax carried, the years training, the responsibility and the risk to career that is carried through annual medicals, sim checks etc. These individuals spend many nights away from their families, miss many important events in their childrens lives, and suffer health and stress implications that very few careers do.

You occasionally make a worthwhile comment that is thought-provoking, but then unfailingly go on to ruin your arguement by suggesting that 'pay-cuts' (...oh, lets' start at 20%....!) and fatiguing schedules will 'bring the pilots down to reality'....

If pay-cuts are good..then heck, let's start with 50%.... No, experience has a value, and just because we are suffering through an era of the 'beancounter', doesn't mean that the piloting profession is worth no more than a common bus-driver.

I think the main reason PPRUNE keeps you around is because of the entertainment value, rather like the senile uncle at family reunions ranting on about injustices past. I suggest you get on with 'starting' your airline, where I am sure you will be regarded as the employer of choice.....:D

Also....if for no other reason, would you lighten up so that the rest of the world doesn't think that Phoenix/Scottsdale is full of sad, pathetic individuals instead of the fantastic, friendly place that it really is.....:ok:

Gosh 412A, you sound really upset.
The fact is, aviation (ie: airline flying, operations, costs etc) are changing rapidly, and yes, those that expect rapid advancement to the top rung of the salary ladder will, now and in the years to come, find that the ladder is rather shorter than it has been in years past.
Fact...not fallacy.
Those airlines that cannot get a handle on costs, wherever based, will just have to adapt, or fade slowly away.

Lets see....
PanAmerican
Braniff
Eastern Air Lines
TWA
Sebena
SwissAir

All failed carriers. And to this list we could have added Continental, until rescued from the brink.

The employees lost their jobs. Vendors failed.
Did the management of these failed companies suffer?
Yes, i'm sure Harding Lawrence (CEO Braniff) had a really hard time keeping his $5million house in Alcapulco.:yuk:

Those sitting at the top of the seniority list at aircarriers that have not come to terms with updated cost-effective management style, will find themselves out of a job, sooner or later.

If you think you are worth $250k a year commanding a B747, you are dreaming.

Dream on McDuff.;)

your assessment of my value is of no consequence, neither is it in respect of those men and women who do Captain 747's. Funny you should mention Continental. It was only when Gordon Bethune took over and scrapped the deluded and destructive 'bottom line' policies of the Lorenzo era that Continental was resurected into the best airline in the US. Their pilots are now (other than Delta) the highest paid, most motivated and most satisfied pilots in the industry. Could it be that Gordon, being a pilot himself, understands that an employee has a worth greater than the absolute bottom line...? Continental is now considered the best airline in the US industry, and it did it completely counter to your lame and tired ideas. Your ideas 411 were discredited 15+ years ago when the Lorenzo experiment was shown to be an abject failure. Why is it that you can't see that your ideas represent recent history that has been consingned to the scrapheap.

...reading some of your 2500+ posts (good grief...!), it seems that you truly, and sadly have no life other than to type away thinking you are contributing anything constructive to the issues of aviation. I will not be answering to all your posts because, unlike you, I do have a life beyond inane rantings based on bitterness and failure. Over to you McFly.

Hi 411A

I see that you are still posting with all the goodwill of the ghost of Christmas [future.]

By the way, remind us how long you were a Concorde pilot for?

Funny that all the Concordes will be prime attractions at museums and will captivate future generations of children, who will become the pilots of tomorrow, whilst the technologically advanced TriStar is the type now assisting in the distribution of Milwaukee's finest :D

Well, Final 3 Greens, Concorde was parked simply because it could not cut the mustard, cost wise.
Too expensive, too old, obsolete.

Gosh, sounds like BA.:E

Oddly enough, ten TriStars are in the process of being re-activated, and expect more to follow.
Meanwhile, Concorde is a doorstop in several museums.

Hi 411A

Nice to see that your mind is still working, despite my suspicions of Alzheimers ;)

Ah yes, the failed Concorde feasibility study..... 27 years long - there's no dishonour in becoming obsolete dear old thing, we all do eventually, some sooner than others.

I hate to get bitchy, but the list of failed airlines you mention does seem to have rather a lot of American names on it and very few British ones.

The average lifespan of a Fortune 500 company is 40 years - BA is now 31 years old and working through the issues that face large corporations. However, it has one of the best global brands and this will be more significant in its survival than many realise.

Well F3G, sure hope so.
Some of the nicest folks I have met world-wide have been the early-out BA guys...at other companies.

They have all mentioned that...they were coddled in the extreme.

Wonder if it is still the same?:confused:

411A

Merry Xmas!

411A



I think it was Mark Twain who said:

"It is far better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove all doubt"

"There has never been any proven evidence of a " dirty tricks " campaign in ba......."

What utter nonsense. Just ask Marshall. Or King. or the Gatwick Helpliners. Or the passenger poachers. Ask about Operation Covent Gaden....

Nice to hear from you BEagle ... you're still on earth.

I was working in Prague this week and one of my local contacts told me 'tomorrow zey vil fire BEagle to Mars." Bloody hell I thought - whose going to give us the gen on the Belgrano from now on ;)

maxy101Uumm, I did not say that it would be! No, it would not be good but it is on the cards. Did you actually read what I wrote??
That is not what I want to see, I continue to say that BA is a fine airline on which to be a passenger (as my PPRuNe name states) but providing a good passenger experience is not enough and what I have described could easily happen.

As F3G said: Big companies have a natural lifespan. Some live longer than others but there is always a limit. Boeing, for example, are moving into the next chapter of their existence and, as has been said, the Russians and Chinese are moving up to compete with Airbus.

I doubt that BA will survive in anything like it's present form in 10 years. Changes and (probably) mergers are needed, with individuals and governments needing to decide if having some people employed is better than none.

I would suggest that BA via BOAC and Imperial is actually 84 years old and will be around for quite a while yet.

Renfrew

BOAC/BEA were govermental bodies, so BA has only been around as an entity since 1972 (full integration 1974) if we are talking about corporate lifecylces.

The bloodline, however, is a different matter and I would welcome another 84 years or more :O

Hi 411A,

I don't disagree with what you say, bit near the bone for some though.

But the reason for this post is; what Tristars are being brought back into service and for whom?

What BA needs (in managerial terms) is for some (more) of its non-core functions to be out-sourced.
Out-sourcing moves people out of the expensive pension scheme, away from lifetime perks, in to smaller, more focussed businesses who rely on service provision for survival. Head Office wallahs rely on politics for survival.
So what about outsourcing (for example) check-in, recruitment, PR, aircraft maintenance, website development, and literally hundreds of other functions.
Done carefully, it can revolutionise a company, but the company can retain and improve its innovative edge and customer care.

I have personal experience of turning round an ex-nationalised business, and restrictive practices and 'comfort management' issues have to be tackled head-on.

BA's a great airline with a great future, but nearly 20 years on, it still has vestiges of state ownership about it. That's got to change for it to unlock it's future potential

bat.man,
Mostly for Jordanian/middle east operators...Air Rum, Star, Air Universal, and a few more.
Problem is, many have no prior operating experience, not to mention maintenance know how, (never mind spares), so don't how long they will be operating.

TwoTun,
So, have you accepted the senior CC position yet?:E

QUOTE
Your post certainly made me smile ;-) but look at the evidence:

World first transatlantic jet service
Worlds first supersonic passenger service
Worlds first fully flat bed in First Class
Worlds first fully flat bed in business class
One of the first airlines to offer e-ticket, the first to offer it on international routes
First airline to put 100% of its staff through a putting people first programme and revolutionise its service delivery
First airline to employ a specialist wine buyer and leading international chefs to gain competitive advantage with superior food and wines bought at lower prices
First airline to offer four class service on international longhaul routes so offering an enhanced economy option
Worlds first personal video library on board in First Class
World's first well being in the air programme
World's first on board internet and email service
World leading flight and cabin crew training facilities used to train over 100 other airlines worldwide
First airline in the world to automate back office processes using e-forms and other e-working initiatives
BA's Waterside HQ was one of the first buildings in the world to provide a wireless infrastructure, so enabling workplace mobility
State of the art world cargo facility opened at LHR
BA has also recently won the best airline travel award for the 16th year in succession along with 6 other awards including best First Class and Best Business Class.

For all its faults, BA has demonstrated time and again its ability to surprise the industry. Personally I hated most of the ethnic tailfins, but look out of your window at the liveries of many of the world's airlines and you'll see the influence BA has had and how many have followed their lead. BA is a company which continually reinvents itself because at the heart of it all it has a tremendously gifted, loyal, talented and passionate workforce who believe in it and wouldn't want to work for anyone else no matter how much money was on the table.

Desk-pilot

was just reading through this forum ad saw this post from desk-pilot- im BA cabin crew & reading this made me extremely proud. i am happy 2 work for BA & no im not one of the pre-97 employees on massive salary basic- im 21-moved 2 london 2 work for a company i have always looked up 2 & now i feel extremely proud & work my arse off- with a positive attitude, high moral, good sense of humour- to help keep BA succesfull- its people like myself & desk-pilot who keep spirits high when every1 else just has total sh** to say! thanks.

LGS6753, I agree with you that some functions could be outsourced and I'm surprised we haven't already witnessed the development of a "British Airways Ground Services" company - a wholly owned subsidiary of BA. Especially given the problems at LHR this summer. Perhaps because of militant union fear?..

There are two problems though:

(a) What do you do with the staff left behind at BA? There are a lot of "lifers" and redundancy is expensive for a cash-poor company.

(b) BA has a poor track-record in managing its outsource companies. OK, A1 (Amadeus) have actually done a good job in the RTZ/RTB migration - unplanned outages are at their lowest level ever - but my God it's hard work working with them! Look too at relationships with IBM, EDS and Omnetica over the years... Perhaps not as great as the Business Plan said they would be.

Incidentallly, talking of check-in, I've always thought it odd that bearing in mind it's perfectly possible to teach automated (computer) check-in course in 5 days and then feel happy to place those trained agents on a desk, why does it take BA so much longer to train its staff? The service is no better!

It's all a question of attitude.

If BA recognised that they could take 5 days then they could take on a load of temporary staff (read "students") over the Summer without any difficulty!

LGS6753.. Why not outsource the pilots too? :mad:

411A Free !!!
 

A confession;

after all this time, I never bothered with the "Ignore" list.

Now I've done I've taken the time to sort it out, and I'm 411A Free!!:D

Isn't technology wonderful?

TwoTun
thankfully out of aviation now the inmates are running the assylum.

A short survey... Are you "411A free"?

A simple post to the effect... I've used Pprune's "Ignore" function and I'm 411A free...it's great!

It really is!

Having got that off my chest, (and now outside looking in), It did concern me that an AML cabin crew (disguised as BA) were rostered two night sectors out of the Caribbean with no proper rest facilities. Mind you they needed all that time "on duty" to look after the 400 punters.

My next trip was an evening mailine departure to Tel Aviv (with about sixty passengers less and one crew member more). The first thing arranged by the CSD was the bunk rest timings. I think the figure ended up at over two hours!

How you sort it all out I don't know.

I don't obviously need to care (part 6, retired) but I still do!!

LGS6753
WHILE I AGREE SOME JOBS CAN BE OUTSOURCED IE BAGGAGE HANDLING/CHECK IN OTHERS CANNOT IE MAINTENANCE. IMAGINE FINDING SOMETHING LIKE A LOOSE BOLT, A BA ENGINEER WOULD JUST TIGHTEN IT WHILE A SUBCONTRACTOR WOULD SAY THATS XX.XX PLEASE.
IF YOU THINK OUTSOURCING IS A GOOD THING THERE ARE NO SUCH JOBS AS CORE FUNCTIONS EVERYTHING CAN BE OUTSOURCED INCLUDING CABIN ATTENDANTS/FLIGHT CREW/ENGINEERS, AND GUESS WHAT, BA MANAGERS WILL STILL BE IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE ALL IS BEING DONE CORRECTLY, SO WAKE UP STOP DREAMING, MANAGERS ARE WINNING AND WILL ALWAYS WIN. SORRY BUT THATS THE WAY IT IS.
ps I am not in a management position.

I think BA outsourcing pilots would be a great idea!

That way we'd all be freelance and they'd have to pay us much more!

Imagine how much money all we pilots could make if we ALL banded together as one huge pilot agency with a complete monopoly!

Today the airlines, tommorrow the WORLD! HA HA HA!! :}

I cannot see that at present there is a company larger enough to take on the ground handling operation. In addition you get what you pay for and it is unlikely that you will get a better service.

BA did much of these things before outsourcing MT , Vehicle service, IT, Security. Facilities and more. Many of these disciplines are now costing more and are porrly performed. We also tried service delivery level agreements for quality standards and that does not work either.

HZ123
..err, excuse me, when did BA outsource MT? Certainly not at LHR where they are one of the bigger groups of layabouts around. Restrictive practises right from the '60s abound, drivers doing limited numbers of round trips per day, hiding in poor radio reception areas when job done, not calling in when job is done, to change crew on one aircraft rotation at LHR often required 3, yes 3, buses. One for the inbound crew, 2 for the outbound (one collecting crew from Compass Centre and one collecting crew in the Central area). Frequently I find myself waiting for transport outside the CAT lounge only to see the cabin crew bus pass by - they will not stop - against their interests. They were also primarily responsible for the delayed implementation of the single crew bus for longhaul arrivals - cost them jobs/overtime. Rumoured that most of them are on £45K pa.

Did you know that BA have the second largest fleet of buses in the UK after Stagecoach?

The sooner that they sub contract MT or T5 is built the better.

Now as for baggage handling, by all accounts the managers aren't allowed into the department without union agreement. Heavens knows what practises go on in there - one shudders at the possibilities.

Judge and Jury
 

The truth is that the Judge of BA ultimately is the City, and the Jury it’s passengers

At the end of the day BA’s salvation can only come from within, across all business functions when the culture becomes focused again on delivering customer service and satisfaction, as more and more disaffected customers choose to travel with other carriers, as the market offers more and more choice.

It appears to be (as a mere humble PAX) an organisation with two very differing sub-cultures, a position that it can no longer afford (in truth it’s been a problem for many years), and the City will only tolerate for so long.

One culture is stuck in a time warp, believing that BA will provide (job for life, great pension position, outmoded working practices etc.), and that they have the most important job function in the company, be that in the air, on the ground, in an office, or boardroom.

The other has those individuals with a passionate belief in the organisation, the vision to realise that the solution lies by the whole company moving forward, and not apportioning blame else ware every time, and the realisation that it’s customers have and increasing choice of options, and that things need to change quickly.

This tread appears to have contributions from those in both cultures.

The hard task is to slay the old culture, either by converting those who current espouse to it, or remove these individuals from the organisation as quickly as possible, this task needs everyone to play their part.

I wish those contributing every success on what is going to be a long and painful 12-18 months, those who don’t want to contribute I suggest you stand aside because time is against you, and ultimately the City win, and their remedy will be ruthless in the extreme.

ccrew21: You list a truly wonderful range of milestones (although I would want to check details on one or two of them that would be nit-picking). The problem is not that BA have been so innovative and that they continue to win awards - it is that they can no longer do so at a reliable profit. As others have said, the City will withdraw support and take their money elsewhere. Then the share price falls, then they get bought up.

I think that outsourcing can reduce costs but I think it does reduce service. Over the past 23 years that I have been in a service industry (telecommunications) I have seen outsourcing at close range and from both sides of the line. I have seen it in America and the UK and Germany and I don't believe in it because service levels cannot be maintained.

All the words about the service company being focussed on delivery to the client slowly fades. The staff move their focus towards their own company and the their survival which, often works against the client. I have seen it at first hand. Service Level Agreements? Hah!

topbunk: If this is true then they are in even deeper troubles that I thought! I may not be a fan of UK managers but if they cannot get direct access to what they are managing then someone has blundered.

colossus: Certainly it does but removing the old culture is nigh on impossible. I could describe this problem with regards to BAA but I am always bashing them so let me choose one from my own field.

BT have changed a colossal amount (sorry could not resist!) in the 19 years since the start of their privatisation. BUT to anyone who works with them regularly, you will hear and see that some of their 'core values' have not changed. There are still people in BT who think that they should be given certain contracts as they are - simply - BT. You will hear many BT people say, "Some parts of this company still act like they are the GPO and don't have to listen to anyone."

Does this sound familiar? Just like BA think that some passengers are naturally theirs and some departments think that they really are the world's favourite airline?

Once again, sorry to say these things but it is what I see.

A huge 'thank you' to 412 for his eminently sensible ripostes to 411a that place him firmly in the context he deserves.

411a's habit is to ignore the facts and move to his own line of "spin" in nearly every reply he makes. Some are gratuitously offensive, (see threads related to former Concorde Fllight Engineers), and most seem motivated by a strain of bitterness that has nothing to do with airline economics and everything to do with a pathological resentment of the salaries that flightcrew earn.

People in this business have been savaged by factors far beyond any one entity's ability to control, and it is 411a's apparent glee at our collective misfortunes that I dislike most of all.

I reiterate my own position: if my carrier folds after all the years I've done in the seniority system and pension scheme I will leave the industry and never look back. I am not alone. My future was not compromised by my 'greed', but the arrogance of a chief executive who sacked any of his 'team' that dared contradict him and went on to beggar a fine airline by mortgaging it to the hilt, £4.8 billion to be precise.

Among my peers who are not in aviation I am the worst paid and have taken the longest to reach the peak of my profession. This may be 'the market' at work, yet even when we were at our peak as an airline I earnt an average salary for the European industry, so it appears a one way bet.

Doubtless this is as 411a would have it be, but in the end if you have any self respect one has to start wondering if the job's worth it, especially if you chuck-in working for delusional tyrants like Bob A@ling and his under-performing Lieutenants, or indeed the likes of 411a, who appears to aspire to such greatness. There are other things to do.

If BA goes under I hereby promise 411a that I'll cheerfully post a reply to let him know how I get on "out in the cold". Another of 411a's backround assumptions seems to be that everyone in aviation is incapable of doing anything else to keep body and soul together, such that they'll be queuing-up to be 'dissed' by the likes of him and his new airline.

It seems to escape 411a that the role model for the low cost airline sector, Southwest, is run by a charismatic entrepreneur who places the morale of his people at the top of the criteria that has made that company the most consistently profitable airline in history. 411a's potential bankers may like to take note of his very public views on the place an employee holds in the food chain.


If 411a can create employment in one of the worst downturns an already highly cyclical industry has ever seen, then I salute him. Perhaps with the aircraft in place and the reality of man management upon him, his views will change. I hope so, but I doubt it.

Meanwhile two factors give BA hope: the Government here has recognised the central role of aviation in creating prosperity through facilitating the interchange of commerce and the provision of leisure through tourism by providing the planning environment for vital airport growth to meet the ever rising trend demand for air travel. Reflecting this long term trend growth, BA's share price has risen such that BA is back in the FTSE 100. The Fat Lady has yet to sing, 411a: there is much hope for us yet and I know that everyone in BA will work to make that hope a reality.

As Christmas approaches, I send 411a every best wish for the success of his airline. I hope that it provides employment for many and him with the material rewards of entrepreneurship, as well as the necessary insights into human motivation and character that are essential to financial success.

One of the best posts in a long time, Loaded1; very thoughtful and well written. 411A could do worse than to read how to post without outraging the aviation community. Even when his posts contain accurate content matter, he has to cover them in an exo-skeleton of dung mixed with phasers-on-stun that many find unpalatable or unfathomable. I would have thought employee respect and credibility were important for management....

It's the presentation, not necessarily the content, 411a, that's riled the observers.

Kind of like watching the Washington Redskins....;)

PAXboy, as you are in agreement with the observation of the need for those within BA to adopt a culture more in tune with today’s economic realities as part of the pre-requisites to it’s long term survival, yet are extremely sceptical of it becoming a reality. Do you think that BA should perhaps start another airline along the lines of GO as a means of moving forward, say as a European carrier?

GO I guess had one advantage by being located at Stansted, in terms of cultural “contamination” from the less desirable practices of mainstream BA.

Hmm???

BA's in the **** and £5 Billion in debt so who's to blame? - seems some think its 411A judging by the amount of posts attacking him:confused:

Well, Jet II, seems some want to stick their collective heads where the sun doesn't shine...and lay blame elsewhere.
BA, and especially its management have only themselves to blame...it would appear that the 'Imperial Airways syndrome' is alive and well within the company.

The clock is ticking...for sure.:ooh:

Surely, despite all the critism of BA much of which is acknowledged there are very few airlines (full service - long / short haul) that are in any better fiscal condition. The prospects of improvement in the industry look pretty flat for next year too. BA will still be around after many others have failed.

colossus: I continue to hope that BA will be around for many years to come. As HZ123 has just said, everyone is in difficulties. The reason that I am sceptical is that I have not seen many other large, mature, organisations turn themselves around, I hope that BA prove me wrong.

As to solutions? I think that GO was a very good idea and might have been the way to move back to a lower cost domestic/regional/short haul and separate the long haul full service. My reason for supporting that split is that the BEA/BOAC merger was politically driven not operationally so. The arrival of the LoCo operators has changed European services in a way that could not have been anticipated. As an aside, Eurostar finds itself with the same problem as it did not know that LGW/STN/LTN would be offerring return fares to CDG/ORY/BRU at less than 50% of their standard fares and their fares were going to undercut mainline fares. Since GO has been sold and the market already consolidating, there is no chance of launching another in this category. I suggest that the management were far sighted in starting it and short sighted in selling it.

What to do? Long haul will also have some LoCo operators trying for the Laker SKyTrain model and so the competition is going to be tough. If you reduce routes and frequency - you reduce income. Assets have already been slimmed and trimmed and leased-back and what have you. This leaves salaries. I am not aware of any company in recent years that has been able to reduce salaries and benefits by up to 20% without hideous amounts of strike action. Humans just don't work that way. They only reduce this component when they are in administration or when relaunching after being merged.

The European market of full service airlines is over capacity. In my own field, telecommunications, I have seen consolidation that has taken my breath away. In this country and others, I have seen proud names vanish. Some that used to be considered the 'national flag carrying company' for telecomms.

Again, for those who don't read all my (admittedly long) post, I hope that BA prove me wrong.

"I am not aware....by up to 20%..."

Pax: how about AA? 23% pay cuts and further work-rule concessions - no strike, not in administration. Meanwhile the CEO was attempting to line his own pocket - still no strike when it was discovered. There's restraint for you. (CH11 would have surely followed, however...)

Now Don Carty sits in his new $13 mil house in Canada writing sniping articles to the newspapers about it wasn't his fault, it's all the employees fault, blah, blah. Leadership, eh?:yuk:

He even got asked to be guest speaker at SMU Business school recently - ha, ha, ha. This from a man who apparently thought skipping the Business Ethics classes at Harvard would be cool...:mad:

RRAMJET: Thanks for the info, I am sure that AA will benefit. If BA can only start cutting the mngt jobs then they will be heading in the right direction. My guess is that it's easier to lay people off than it is to get people to reduce their salary - even if that might be better for all in the long term and save on redundancy fees.

Not surprised to hear about Carty, modern management thinks that when things are not going well, all that is needed is Just a bit more management. :rolleyes: In this regard, they are like dictators who keep shooting people until there is an uprising and he is overthrown. Works the same in companies. Except that, rather than spilling blood directly, it is indirect.

RRAAMJET is right, the AA guys took the big hit, and suspect it will pay off big time in the years to come.
Meanwhile, 'tis a shame that Carty and company are not on the inside looking out...of a jail cell.
Just like Harding Lawrence at Braniff years ago, running the company into the ground with very big expensive executive perks does not inspire confidence in 'management'.