BA staff walkout @ LHR
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Foxiboy
I take it that these people are on min wage. Cabin crew may start on that basic but then you have to add on the allowances as well. This oftern brings the figure a lot higher.
Also I was not saying that these guys are well paid. Just that there is a way to do things. I don't beleive the way they acted was the correct one.
Lets hope this can be sorted out amicably. Last thing we need is the uk industry on strike when we have enough problems with the Italians, French and Spanish
I take it that these people are on min wage. Cabin crew may start on that basic but then you have to add on the allowances as well. This oftern brings the figure a lot higher.
Also I was not saying that these guys are well paid. Just that there is a way to do things. I don't beleive the way they acted was the correct one.
Lets hope this can be sorted out amicably. Last thing we need is the uk industry on strike when we have enough problems with the Italians, French and Spanish
Last edited by welsh viking; 21st Jul 2003 at 22:48.
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nicecsd...like I said earlier...there is no such thing as an 'illegal' strike, people are allowed to withdraw their labour in a dispute. You condemn them for taking an extreme step...without asking why they did so.
I keep saying it, and I will keep saying it...these are ordinary people like you and me...and I'm sure it takes a lot for these ordinary people, to take action like this...I believe that they took this action because thay felt they had no other choice...the postings from anti-ice and aeroflirt seem to back this up.
I cannot and, will not, condemn someone for standing up for themselves.
I will condemn those who demonise without knowing the full facts and backround
I keep saying it, and I will keep saying it...these are ordinary people like you and me...and I'm sure it takes a lot for these ordinary people, to take action like this...I believe that they took this action because thay felt they had no other choice...the postings from anti-ice and aeroflirt seem to back this up.
I cannot and, will not, condemn someone for standing up for themselves.
I will condemn those who demonise without knowing the full facts and backround
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BA Management?
Well, everybody has sounded off, some taking immoderate views and some not. But when all is said and done, the management are running the business, they presumably foresaw the problems they might run into by forcing though changes, and not ensuring the workers were in the main content.
People don't go on strike for fun, but because they have a grievance.
The CEO should be asking the Head of HR, "why did did this happen, and who is going to pick up the bill"?
Customers are not stupid, there are alternative carriers, and they will use them.
People don't go on strike for fun, but because they have a grievance.
The CEO should be asking the Head of HR, "why did did this happen, and who is going to pick up the bill"?
Customers are not stupid, there are alternative carriers, and they will use them.
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I never argued the reason/s behind the industrial action.
I just find it irresponsible if not immoral the way it was actioned and the known and unquantified suffering that followed that action.
We have proper channels for arguying disputes etc etc and even a stressed- out underpaid workforce should adhere to the rules.
This law of the jungle wont solve any disputes and if encouraged at the end we wont have any disputes to argue about
I just find it irresponsible if not immoral the way it was actioned and the known and unquantified suffering that followed that action.
We have proper channels for arguying disputes etc etc and even a stressed- out underpaid workforce should adhere to the rules.
This law of the jungle wont solve any disputes and if encouraged at the end we wont have any disputes to argue about
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Remember our good friend 'Joyce Tick' who was so outraged as his/her daughter had to delay the start of her hols ?
Is this the same 'Joyce Tick' who earlier proclaimed:
Joyce Tick
Just another number
posted 6th February 2002 10:10 ___ _ _ __ _
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey- I'm a Tug Operative and I object to being called a pushback driver and accused of being paid 60k.
I would go on strike if they reduced my pay to that level.
I think we should be told, 'Joyce'.
Is this the same 'Joyce Tick' who earlier proclaimed:
Joyce Tick
Just another number
posted 6th February 2002 10:10 ___ _ _ __ _
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey- I'm a Tug Operative and I object to being called a pushback driver and accused of being paid 60k.
I would go on strike if they reduced my pay to that level.
I think we should be told, 'Joyce'.
Still behind the curtain
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BA staff walkout
I posted earlier on this thread about Ronald Reagan's wholesale firing of the ATC in the U.S. and there was no mercy except for the few hundred who stayed on the job. Much later there was a relaxation on rehiring, but many were too old to come back.
If any of you are interested in taking a closer look at the American dilemna -- the miscommunications and other important issues -- please click on the following URL. It seems to me that the BA action and the PATCO action are very parallel.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journa...EH37/Pels.html
If any of you are interested in taking a closer look at the American dilemna -- the miscommunications and other important issues -- please click on the following URL. It seems to me that the BA action and the PATCO action are very parallel.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journa...EH37/Pels.html
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Peepeerune suggested that pilots in other companies would understand what he meant by pilots treating BA like a flying school.
I am a pilot with a direct competitor of BA; I don't understand it at all- other than that he is trying to be abusive.
I am a pilot with a direct competitor of BA; I don't understand it at all- other than that he is trying to be abusive.
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nicecsd -
Oh please come to your senses - this wasn't famine in Ethiopia or ethnic cleansing in the Balkans so it hardly qualifies as "unquantified suffering".
Perhaps you should have argued the reasons behind industrial action - there are usually very good reasons, otherwise people wouldn't risk their jobs.
Walking out on unofficial action isn't immoral in the case of check-in staff; they're not in the middle of life saving surgery or fighting a fire. Besides, they probably did stick to the rules.
You say the law of the jungle won't solve any disputes, and you're right - now go tell airline management - maybe they'll listen to you. BA management certainly seemed to be conspicuous by their absence and were rightly perceived by the travelling public as being to blame.
Oh please come to your senses - this wasn't famine in Ethiopia or ethnic cleansing in the Balkans so it hardly qualifies as "unquantified suffering".
Perhaps you should have argued the reasons behind industrial action - there are usually very good reasons, otherwise people wouldn't risk their jobs.
Walking out on unofficial action isn't immoral in the case of check-in staff; they're not in the middle of life saving surgery or fighting a fire. Besides, they probably did stick to the rules.
You say the law of the jungle won't solve any disputes, and you're right - now go tell airline management - maybe they'll listen to you. BA management certainly seemed to be conspicuous by their absence and were rightly perceived by the travelling public as being to blame.
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250 BA managers STILL sitting at home on full pay whilst they find new jobs.
Its actually 320, some on £50,000+ pa while the rest of the staff work there b.....s off.
320 staff working in checkin during the summer months would
make a hell of a difference.
Its actually 320, some on £50,000+ pa while the rest of the staff work there b.....s off.
320 staff working in checkin during the summer months would
make a hell of a difference.
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Anti-Ice
I just thought you'd be better off knowing that
Anyway, the reponse, as a thousand others have said before, did nothing for the company, their colleagues and most importantly the customers. The action will quite likely result in the implimentation of the aforesaid 'attendance management tool' regardless. The Director of Customer Services will remain sipping his Frappuchino on the 'Streets' of Waterside, working out how he can train 300 A7 pay graders who play golf everyday on full pay whilst doing the "Teach Yourself Amadeus Reservations" CD Rom on their company Dell Laptop.
The Union reps are big boys and girls who have big toys like email and TXT message chain letters that can muster up strike action LEGALLY. They have screwed their members and all the rest of us with it.
I just thought you'd be better off knowing that
- Over 800 Co-Pilots took a pay cut at British Airways with this 'new deal', the money they 'lost' was syphoned into the pay of Captains and Direct Entry Co-Pilots. Overall the budget remained the same (according to both our Union and Management)
- Until we reach the limits of legal Flight Duty Periods, any extra hour that we work is paid at the huge rate of £2.50/hr, after which the CAA will not let us fly. This is a huge disappointment after being awake for 24 hours, when you could earn at least another fiver before you fall asleep at the controls.
- There is no-one better placed to assess the airline as a whole, without the fog of 'incentive pay' than us pilots. We regularly position through terminals 1 and 4 and sit by passengers who give us their two-penneth view of the 'state of BA'. We also (quite obviously, sorry), see how the airside game is being played by Engineering, Baggage-Handling, Tug Operatives
and Dispatchers. We (With around 20 exceptions in 3500) will always, ALWAYS go that extra mile. We are confused that this strike goes under the title of "Being asked to work for when you're payed to". I have a duty week of around 55 hours coming up, and I reckon that is what I will work. May be a few minutes less, perhaps a few hours more, but I will SWIPE in and SWIPE out when I'm dropped off. Wass da problem eh? - I do concur with your theories about mis-management. BA has a wondrous bully culture that is mainly rewarded with promotion. The worst pilots I have ever flown with were managers, mind you the best I've flown with are managers too. We got rid of 30% of them post Sept 11th and the scary egos were flushed down the loo (with a few exceptions).
Anyway, the reponse, as a thousand others have said before, did nothing for the company, their colleagues and most importantly the customers. The action will quite likely result in the implimentation of the aforesaid 'attendance management tool' regardless. The Director of Customer Services will remain sipping his Frappuchino on the 'Streets' of Waterside, working out how he can train 300 A7 pay graders who play golf everyday on full pay whilst doing the "Teach Yourself Amadeus Reservations" CD Rom on their company Dell Laptop.
The Union reps are big boys and girls who have big toys like email and TXT message chain letters that can muster up strike action LEGALLY. They have screwed their members and all the rest of us with it.
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To all those who are supporting this "strike"...THINK:
Airline goes bust.....checkin operatives out on their a***s or working for McD's in Staines @ £4.50/hr.....cabin crew working for any other airline at "Market Rate" (50% pay cut at least).....still support the "strike"????
Airline goes bust.....checkin operatives out on their a***s or working for McD's in Staines @ £4.50/hr.....cabin crew working for any other airline at "Market Rate" (50% pay cut at least).....still support the "strike"????
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Points taken LandASAP , at least we agree on one thing/certain building,anyway 
You say 'There is no-one better placed to assess the airline as a whole' in terms of your terminal / onboard contacts leaving you well placed to get an overview of peoples perceptions of BA.
Accepted ,but please dont forget we see the returns on 20 Questionnaires per day / YourThoughts cards / and of course numerous incidental requests/comments/conversations inflight.
If you are inferring by saying that 'all 3,500 of you go that extra mile' , that other frontline staff don't, then you are not as 'in touch' as you may think.By any standard.
Numerous numerous changes have been made and many frontline staff have surrendered many many previous work ideals and still achieved a high level of service.
Even management have acknowledged that once or twice
Cabin crew alone :
Less crew onboard (proposed up to 50%)
Less Resources/Equipment (Much less)
Increased service routines
Higher customer expectations
Increased hours through rostering
Less / Zero likelihood of achieving leave / leave availablity
Everyone co-operated to achieve this and ALL went that extra mile.
All coupled with the stress of high profile security implications, and job security .(Like all other airlines i am sure).
But the latest phase/wave of critical crewing levels and pay/hours proposals has , quite literally , (sadly as we have seen) pushed people over the edge.
It needs someone to come into BA ,recognise ALL aspects / points of view , and take an evenhanded approach to the recourse of the situation .
It's not about people being greedy = They are not even asking for anything = It's about fairness and what is right.
It's highly regrettable that this ever happened , but i think you'll find the staff had no option once pushed so far.
We are talking about colleagues of yours on significantly lower pay who are under the threat of their T&C's being eroded to intolerable levels.
As for other staffs views of the recent pilots pay review - most were led to believe (like LH) that you would strike if you didn't get what you wanted !
And many of your F/C colleagues have gladly told other BA staff 'how much (sometimes , significantly)better off they are' !
So please don't shoot the messenger.
You say 'There is no-one better placed to assess the airline as a whole' in terms of your terminal / onboard contacts leaving you well placed to get an overview of peoples perceptions of BA.
Accepted ,but please dont forget we see the returns on 20 Questionnaires per day / YourThoughts cards / and of course numerous incidental requests/comments/conversations inflight.
If you are inferring by saying that 'all 3,500 of you go that extra mile' , that other frontline staff don't, then you are not as 'in touch' as you may think.By any standard.
Numerous numerous changes have been made and many frontline staff have surrendered many many previous work ideals and still achieved a high level of service.
Even management have acknowledged that once or twice
Cabin crew alone :
Less crew onboard (proposed up to 50%)
Less Resources/Equipment (Much less)
Increased service routines
Higher customer expectations
Increased hours through rostering
Less / Zero likelihood of achieving leave / leave availablity
Everyone co-operated to achieve this and ALL went that extra mile.
All coupled with the stress of high profile security implications, and job security .(Like all other airlines i am sure).
But the latest phase/wave of critical crewing levels and pay/hours proposals has , quite literally , (sadly as we have seen) pushed people over the edge.
It needs someone to come into BA ,recognise ALL aspects / points of view , and take an evenhanded approach to the recourse of the situation .
It's not about people being greedy = They are not even asking for anything = It's about fairness and what is right.
It's highly regrettable that this ever happened , but i think you'll find the staff had no option once pushed so far.
We are talking about colleagues of yours on significantly lower pay who are under the threat of their T&C's being eroded to intolerable levels.
As for other staffs views of the recent pilots pay review - most were led to believe (like LH) that you would strike if you didn't get what you wanted !
And many of your F/C colleagues have gladly told other BA staff 'how much (sometimes , significantly)better off they are' !
So please don't shoot the messenger.
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Anti-ice
I genuinely don't want to get into a slanging match with you, but you should be aware that a very sizeable number of co-pilots (possibly a majority) have taken a pay CUT as a result of their new pay deal!
You probably appreciate that the smug g*ts shouting their mouths off at how well they are paid, are just the kind of folk that neither you NOR I wish to be sitting next to for 8 or 9 hours at a time! However, it sounds like YOU have a choice!!!
It is a sad reflection that, a walkout planned (and yes, I mean, planned!) by a tiny minority of staff results in various other unconnected groups of staff 'slagging' each other off!!
But if you will allow me to defend my colleagues: Nigels are paid 'market rate' - but we can prove that we are more productive than 'market'. How many other groups of staff can say that!
To return to the specific issue of this irrational, and some may say, hysterical, act of irresponsible vandalism:
It is a VERY widely held misconception that BA cannot, or will not, go bust!!
If it does, all these concerns we have heard from previous posters about 'intolerable pressures' and inability to make mortgage payments, will simply be so much dust in the wind.
Those people seeking to work beyond 55, will have no choice from their new employers, or their bank managers! Welcome to the brave new world, from which you appear to be so very cosseted!
Strangely, the people likely to do 'least worst' out of such a collapse, are the very people who appear to generate so much envy.
Those people currently being paid 'market rate!'
Anyone who cheers at the prospect of an empty aeroplane is an imbecile!
It seems we employ rather too many!!
I genuinely don't want to get into a slanging match with you, but you should be aware that a very sizeable number of co-pilots (possibly a majority) have taken a pay CUT as a result of their new pay deal!
You probably appreciate that the smug g*ts shouting their mouths off at how well they are paid, are just the kind of folk that neither you NOR I wish to be sitting next to for 8 or 9 hours at a time! However, it sounds like YOU have a choice!!!
It is a sad reflection that, a walkout planned (and yes, I mean, planned!) by a tiny minority of staff results in various other unconnected groups of staff 'slagging' each other off!!
But if you will allow me to defend my colleagues: Nigels are paid 'market rate' - but we can prove that we are more productive than 'market'. How many other groups of staff can say that!
To return to the specific issue of this irrational, and some may say, hysterical, act of irresponsible vandalism:
It is a VERY widely held misconception that BA cannot, or will not, go bust!!
If it does, all these concerns we have heard from previous posters about 'intolerable pressures' and inability to make mortgage payments, will simply be so much dust in the wind.
Those people seeking to work beyond 55, will have no choice from their new employers, or their bank managers! Welcome to the brave new world, from which you appear to be so very cosseted!
Strangely, the people likely to do 'least worst' out of such a collapse, are the very people who appear to generate so much envy.
Those people currently being paid 'market rate!'
Anyone who cheers at the prospect of an empty aeroplane is an imbecile!
It seems we employ rather too many!!
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As an ex-employee - managed to leave after the shortest while possible - I still though hold a good number of shares in BA and wish to see them do well. Wildcat strikes are NOT acceptable. You do not treat your customers with contempt which this very definately is. Whatever your salary may be and however meagre it may appear to be these passengers are the reason you get a paycheck at the end of every month.
Which moron ranted on about distress and hardship -try visiting the third world some time heh !!
The whole damn lot should be sacked and sued for lost revenue
Antiice - There are ways and means to have a disagreement with management, unions and ballots etc. How can you condone this type of action ?
Which moron ranted on about distress and hardship -try visiting the third world some time heh !!
The whole damn lot should be sacked and sued for lost revenue
Antiice - There are ways and means to have a disagreement with management, unions and ballots etc. How can you condone this type of action ?
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With all due respect to Tandemrotor and Land ASAP, could we stop the thread creep into yet another whinge on how badly paid the flight crew are.
Getting back to the real issue - I see that the management are sticking to their guns about imposing the new T&C's without agreement from the staff. The main unions involved have said that strike ballots will be called if the company goes ahead - also the possibility of more unofficial stoppages continues.
Is it only me, but for the past 4 days I have seen nothing of any senior management in the media or on the shop-floor in the Terminals. On the news last night there seemed to be more police patrolling the terminal than management. I would have thought that all the senior management, Skippy included, would have been out and about trying to placate the customers - instead they all seem to be holed up in Waterworld afraid to put their head above the parapet.
Tandemrotor
just one last thing
I assume you are talking about flight crew - there are many jobs out there that pay around the same as check-in staff receive, are there that many airlines recruiting that pay Captains 120k and F/O's 90k?
Getting back to the real issue - I see that the management are sticking to their guns about imposing the new T&C's without agreement from the staff. The main unions involved have said that strike ballots will be called if the company goes ahead - also the possibility of more unofficial stoppages continues.
Is it only me, but for the past 4 days I have seen nothing of any senior management in the media or on the shop-floor in the Terminals. On the news last night there seemed to be more police patrolling the terminal than management. I would have thought that all the senior management, Skippy included, would have been out and about trying to placate the customers - instead they all seem to be holed up in Waterworld afraid to put their head above the parapet.
Tandemrotor
just one last thing
Strangely, the people likely to do 'least worst' out of such a collapse, are the very people who appear to generate so much envy.
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I think part of the problem here is one of perception...
... Not everyone who works in Waterside is a manager, or highly paid; and if you are a manager you're not always going to be inept, and out of touch with what the "workers" are thinking...
... If you don't work on the front line (ie cust serv, f/crew, c/crew, res etc), then that doesn't mean that somehow you're not contributing to the success of the airline...
... And almost everyone seems to think that it's only their department that's suffered with job cuts...
The fact remains that right across the airline there are groups of people making sacrifices and who are being paid below market rates. It's the reality of BA today.
I just think people should remember this when they feel hard done by. Yes, 320 more staff would have made a difference on check-in this summer at T4, but the £20,000,000 + the strike has cost would also make a difference too.
... Not everyone who works in Waterside is a manager, or highly paid; and if you are a manager you're not always going to be inept, and out of touch with what the "workers" are thinking...
... If you don't work on the front line (ie cust serv, f/crew, c/crew, res etc), then that doesn't mean that somehow you're not contributing to the success of the airline...
... And almost everyone seems to think that it's only their department that's suffered with job cuts...
The fact remains that right across the airline there are groups of people making sacrifices and who are being paid below market rates. It's the reality of BA today.
I just think people should remember this when they feel hard done by. Yes, 320 more staff would have made a difference on check-in this summer at T4, but the £20,000,000 + the strike has cost would also make a difference too.
Last edited by ojs; 22nd Jul 2003 at 17:37.
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White knight- there are indeed ways and means to have a disagreement with management...but these require management to buy into the process.
I don't work for BA, so I cannot claim to know the full story, but I do work in the industry not so very far away and I do know the reputation that some BA managers have- and it's not impressive.
Seems to me that this action is what you get when management don't communicate or deal with situations effectively. Call me Mr repetetive- but I don't believe that normal, rational people take such extreme action unless they feel that they have no other option.
Militancy within the union movement is generally dead and buried, and no-one will mourn it's passing. But people now are standing up for themselves- and that is to be welcomed...but it is not militancy.
We are in a new century- one where the most successful companies are the ones that know the value of their greatest resource, and how to get the best out of them. They also know that the greatest qualities for a manager are leadership and integrity.
I'm not sure that we've seen that in this dispute.
I don't work for BA, so I cannot claim to know the full story, but I do work in the industry not so very far away and I do know the reputation that some BA managers have- and it's not impressive.
Seems to me that this action is what you get when management don't communicate or deal with situations effectively. Call me Mr repetetive- but I don't believe that normal, rational people take such extreme action unless they feel that they have no other option.
Militancy within the union movement is generally dead and buried, and no-one will mourn it's passing. But people now are standing up for themselves- and that is to be welcomed...but it is not militancy.
We are in a new century- one where the most successful companies are the ones that know the value of their greatest resource, and how to get the best out of them. They also know that the greatest qualities for a manager are leadership and integrity.
I'm not sure that we've seen that in this dispute.
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Having read these posts , it seems to me that there are some extremely intelligent , articulate people working for BA. Wouldn't it make more sense to begin discussing what we can ALL do collectively to help make our company a happy place to work at again and start throwing up some sensible ideas about how to win back customer confidence.
The strike happened . It's done now . It can't be taken back. Pointing fingers and arguing amongst ourselves about who is the most worthy is a waste of the considerable minds that contribute to this board and must make us look rather childish to the rest of the public.
Come on guys , let's leave the internal politics and one upmanship alone and concentrate on keeping our jobs and pulling together as a team.
Peace !
The strike happened . It's done now . It can't be taken back. Pointing fingers and arguing amongst ourselves about who is the most worthy is a waste of the considerable minds that contribute to this board and must make us look rather childish to the rest of the public.
Come on guys , let's leave the internal politics and one upmanship alone and concentrate on keeping our jobs and pulling together as a team.
Peace !