BA reroute Gulf flights via Larnaca
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Yes I agree with Tightslot - The Gulf is not the place to be at this moment in time.
A friend of mine was invovled in the last one. Spent many a month hinding. I'm sure he would agree that no one should run the risk of being put through a similar situation.
Many may feel this is a decision based on commerial considerations but but for once the safety of crew (and no doubt a/c) have be brought in to the equation.
Well done BA.
Cheers,
A friend of mine was invovled in the last one. Spent many a month hinding. I'm sure he would agree that no one should run the risk of being put through a similar situation.
Many may feel this is a decision based on commerial considerations but but for once the safety of crew (and no doubt a/c) have be brought in to the equation.
Well done BA.
Cheers,
Last edited by idgas; 23rd Feb 2003 at 23:48.
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Regardless of costs, it is re-assuring to see that BA is putting the safety and wellbeing of its people first and foremost. They should be applauded for this and not ridiculed.
If only some other carriers weren't so dollar crazy, then maybe they would consider the same.
I apologise in advance if I am way off the beaten track here, but I suspect that many of the above correspondents have never been in the Gulf at all, so aren't really best qualified to comment on the potential threat that exists in the region.
Again -apologies for causing offence.
If only some other carriers weren't so dollar crazy, then maybe they would consider the same.
I apologise in advance if I am way off the beaten track here, but I suspect that many of the above correspondents have never been in the Gulf at all, so aren't really best qualified to comment on the potential threat that exists in the region.
Again -apologies for causing offence.
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Why go to Larnaca; for physical security? Larnaca is the same distance from Baghdad as Bahrain!
It must be the terrorist threat then. Hang on a minute, all of the major terrorist incidents, involving wide spread loss of life, have happened thousands of miles from the Gulf where there are more Western interests.
Hmmm what can it be.
I know that during the Falklands a guy got the timing of the year award. Fearful about the chances of nuclear war in Europe he moved to Port Stanley the week before the Argies invaded.
Personally, I wouldn't go near Saudi, Kuwait or Yemen because of the terror threat. Jordan, Syria and Israel are a bit too close for comfort. Bahrain and Doha should be fine; Saddam's missiles even during Gulf War I could only reach Riyadh and Manama when launched from forward locations that will not be available to him this time. Muscat / Dubai I see no major snags; I'd be more worried about going to Ankara, Athens or Istanbul which are about the same distance away.
Seems to me that what BA is doing is a prudent measure but how far do you actually go to avoid a threat. The Middle East always seems to be tarred with the same brush. People didn't stop going to Italy (Europe) in the 90s when the FRY blew apart although they were very much closer to an active engagement zone.
The worry for me as a Westerner wouldn't actually be within the borders of most of the countries around the region but in countries where Osama and his henchmen might try to export the threat.
What a depressing start to the week.
Ghost
It must be the terrorist threat then. Hang on a minute, all of the major terrorist incidents, involving wide spread loss of life, have happened thousands of miles from the Gulf where there are more Western interests.
Hmmm what can it be.
I know that during the Falklands a guy got the timing of the year award. Fearful about the chances of nuclear war in Europe he moved to Port Stanley the week before the Argies invaded.
Personally, I wouldn't go near Saudi, Kuwait or Yemen because of the terror threat. Jordan, Syria and Israel are a bit too close for comfort. Bahrain and Doha should be fine; Saddam's missiles even during Gulf War I could only reach Riyadh and Manama when launched from forward locations that will not be available to him this time. Muscat / Dubai I see no major snags; I'd be more worried about going to Ankara, Athens or Istanbul which are about the same distance away.
Seems to me that what BA is doing is a prudent measure but how far do you actually go to avoid a threat. The Middle East always seems to be tarred with the same brush. People didn't stop going to Italy (Europe) in the 90s when the FRY blew apart although they were very much closer to an active engagement zone.
The worry for me as a Westerner wouldn't actually be within the borders of most of the countries around the region but in countries where Osama and his henchmen might try to export the threat.
What a depressing start to the week.
Ghost
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Insurance
I would imagine that the people who are underwriting the war risks for aircraft using Middle East airspace have already issued their ruling on where will be OK and where will not and this will have been conveyed to the airlines, together with the effective date.
Most probably that date will be the day a Gulf war re-commences.
By putting their contingency plan into effect now BA are ensuring they don't get caught with their trousers down at the last minute and are hoping to maintain a smooth operation as well as keeping their staff happy.
Having sat in my house, wearing a gas mask, for real, during the first part of the Gulf war in 1991 and wondering what the hell was going on I can sympathise with anyone who doesn't want to spend any more time there than necessary.
When the Iraqis invaded Kuwait in August 1990 the Americans that were not in the military were no slower than anyone else in getting out of Bahrain!
Most probably that date will be the day a Gulf war re-commences.
By putting their contingency plan into effect now BA are ensuring they don't get caught with their trousers down at the last minute and are hoping to maintain a smooth operation as well as keeping their staff happy.
Having sat in my house, wearing a gas mask, for real, during the first part of the Gulf war in 1991 and wondering what the hell was going on I can sympathise with anyone who doesn't want to spend any more time there than necessary.
When the Iraqis invaded Kuwait in August 1990 the Americans that were not in the military were no slower than anyone else in getting out of Bahrain!
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The FCO travel advice is pure CYA.
This part of the world is still a lot safer than most western cities.
I have no problem staying here. I have no problem traveling to Kuwait every other week. I have no problem keeping my kids here and sending them to school here.
Some people just like to panic for the sake of it.
Have you worked it out yet. What do you think Saddam is able to throw at us. He does not have anything left..... Remember the original weapons inspectors were based in Bahrain and I knew a few of them. Nobody is listening to these guys when they say that from 91 to 98 they destroyed a huge amount of his stuff and effectively did disarm him. And even if he did we are ringed by anti missile stuff.
The biggest danger we are in is to be hit by "Friendly Fire"
This BA diversion means that leaving LHR at 10:00 I will now get into Bahrain at 23:30 instead of 19:00. Guess I am going Gulf Air from now on.
God, You people
This part of the world is still a lot safer than most western cities.
I have no problem staying here. I have no problem traveling to Kuwait every other week. I have no problem keeping my kids here and sending them to school here.
Some people just like to panic for the sake of it.
Have you worked it out yet. What do you think Saddam is able to throw at us. He does not have anything left..... Remember the original weapons inspectors were based in Bahrain and I knew a few of them. Nobody is listening to these guys when they say that from 91 to 98 they destroyed a huge amount of his stuff and effectively did disarm him. And even if he did we are ringed by anti missile stuff.
The biggest danger we are in is to be hit by "Friendly Fire"
This BA diversion means that leaving LHR at 10:00 I will now get into Bahrain at 23:30 instead of 19:00. Guess I am going Gulf Air from now on.
God, You people
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Think that the main thing tourists to Dubai are worried about at present is the weather ...it is piddling down here !!
More seriously a blanket policy for the whole of the Gulf seems out of proportion & inappropriate to the situation
(or do BA operations know something that we dont know??)...the rumour in DXB is that the local 'expat' management is being repatriated!!
Suggest that they dont come back as I expect the 'local' staff can do an excellent job without them!!
The UAE (& Dubai especially) is a significant distance from any area of potential conflict....EK must be laughing with all the SLF's being directed to their services in place of the second BA flt that is cut back ....I understand that pay-loads on this route to DXB are some of the heavier sectors that BA are currently operating..so commercials are not necessarily driving this one..Check out EK 7 daily flights from the UK (I stand to corrected as required...)
BA probably needs every penny it can get at present and to keep its employees(Pilots / cabin crew) on the payroll!!
Let us all hope that situation is resoved soon and that we get back to normal asap....BA may find it difficult to gain back the pax when it all over as it reflects badly amongst locals...
Pip! Pip! Back to the 'Bunker' ('watering hole in DXB)
More seriously a blanket policy for the whole of the Gulf seems out of proportion & inappropriate to the situation
(or do BA operations know something that we dont know??)...the rumour in DXB is that the local 'expat' management is being repatriated!!
Suggest that they dont come back as I expect the 'local' staff can do an excellent job without them!!
The UAE (& Dubai especially) is a significant distance from any area of potential conflict....EK must be laughing with all the SLF's being directed to their services in place of the second BA flt that is cut back ....I understand that pay-loads on this route to DXB are some of the heavier sectors that BA are currently operating..so commercials are not necessarily driving this one..Check out EK 7 daily flights from the UK (I stand to corrected as required...)
BA probably needs every penny it can get at present and to keep its employees(Pilots / cabin crew) on the payroll!!
Let us all hope that situation is resoved soon and that we get back to normal asap....BA may find it difficult to gain back the pax when it all over as it reflects badly amongst locals...
Pip! Pip! Back to the 'Bunker' ('watering hole in DXB)
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I am at a slight loss to understand why it isconsidered ok to fly into and out of the Gulf, yet not to spend a night in a 5-star hotel. Last I heard Heathrow and Gatwick were the danger spots, and I can't recall seeing tanks or troops at Bahrain Doha or Dubai in recent weeks. Perhaps BA should relocate from London altogether on "safety grounds".....Madagascar should be safely out of the firing line.
Let's put a couple of things in perspective. Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE are politically moderate, with pro-western governments and (very) comprehensive policing. It does not follow that incidents in Saudi and Kuwait, which have been a feature for some time, will automatically be emulated throughout the GCC. Interestingly, a number of companies in Saudi have offered dependents' flights out of the region - the uptake is around 1%.
As I recall, the BA plane lost last time around had the misfortune to land in Kuwait just as Saddam's chaps crossed the border - is someone seriously positing the theory that Iraq might invade GCC states this time around?
Those of us who live and work in the region are neither reckless adventurers, nor are we wholly blind to the realities of the current situation. Equally, we don't base our assessment on the outpourings of an over-excited media scrum or on stereotyped assumptions of regional homogenity.
As someone who has responsibility for the welfare of nearly 300 people here I monitor this situation very closely, and my sense is that BA's decision is an unfortunate generalisation of the region and unhelpful to the maintenance of a calm and balanced assessment - ie it's an overreaction, that will be interpreted as an abandonment by many of its regional customers.
The degree of spinelessness is endlessly arguable, and not something I would care to debate. What is curious, however, is the apparent lack of consistent logic in the decision, and the extent to which BA has genuinely reduced the risks to its staff through this action. I sense the benefit will be negligible (if any), and the phrase "knee-jerk" springs to mind.
Typed in the bunker with a large G&T for company.....
Let's put a couple of things in perspective. Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE are politically moderate, with pro-western governments and (very) comprehensive policing. It does not follow that incidents in Saudi and Kuwait, which have been a feature for some time, will automatically be emulated throughout the GCC. Interestingly, a number of companies in Saudi have offered dependents' flights out of the region - the uptake is around 1%.
As I recall, the BA plane lost last time around had the misfortune to land in Kuwait just as Saddam's chaps crossed the border - is someone seriously positing the theory that Iraq might invade GCC states this time around?
Those of us who live and work in the region are neither reckless adventurers, nor are we wholly blind to the realities of the current situation. Equally, we don't base our assessment on the outpourings of an over-excited media scrum or on stereotyped assumptions of regional homogenity.
As someone who has responsibility for the welfare of nearly 300 people here I monitor this situation very closely, and my sense is that BA's decision is an unfortunate generalisation of the region and unhelpful to the maintenance of a calm and balanced assessment - ie it's an overreaction, that will be interpreted as an abandonment by many of its regional customers.
The degree of spinelessness is endlessly arguable, and not something I would care to debate. What is curious, however, is the apparent lack of consistent logic in the decision, and the extent to which BA has genuinely reduced the risks to its staff through this action. I sense the benefit will be negligible (if any), and the phrase "knee-jerk" springs to mind.
Typed in the bunker with a large G&T for company.....
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Many many american and other expat civilians remained during the gulf war...and will do the same this time as well I'm sure..downtown Detroit on any given weeknight is more dangerous than it is here even during a war...so there you have it
The Reverend
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I still think you should jump on your Harley with 411A riding pillion and don't stop till you get to Baghdad. Looking forward to your next broadside from the nether world!
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Well said Killick, you took the words right out of my mouth!
The amount of senseless cr*p spouted by western media is simply mindboggling. My family and I feel a lot safer here than we do in Europe.
The amount of senseless cr*p spouted by western media is simply mindboggling. My family and I feel a lot safer here than we do in Europe.
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Night Stops
BMed are currently changing their programmes to avoid night stops in Amman, Jordan, following the FCO advice. We shall be stopping in Damascus instead. The advice does seem a bit OTT, Why should mr Saddam attack a neighbour who has been such a good trading partner for the last 12 years
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Perhaps his Scuds might fall short on the way to Tel Aviv? Its worth remembering that a US diplomat was murdered in Jordan not too long ago. The threat in those countries is not just from the war itself but also from the fundamentalists who reside there.
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37 potter
I think you're missing the point here.Its not Saddam they would be bothering about.Its the whole anti-British fever that would be generated in Jordan by fanatical Muslims that exist there.
I know, I was there recently
I think you're missing the point here.Its not Saddam they would be bothering about.Its the whole anti-British fever that would be generated in Jordan by fanatical Muslims that exist there.
I know, I was there recently
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Stan Deasy
If your company cover you for certain risks then you must ask your insurance manager exactly how your cover may be effected, if your company's insurance cover is a part of your contract it is their responsibility to ensure that you are either fully covered or advised that cover has been modified and in due time for you to make alternative arrangements or not fly to those areas of risk.
For insurance policies you hold yourself you should contact your broker/underwriter and get everything in writing, you may already have a policy with some obscure War clauses in it that you haven't noticed and may not be to your advantage. For your personal policies you may be required to pay an additional premium to effect full cover, worth checking!
For insurance policies you hold yourself you should contact your broker/underwriter and get everything in writing, you may already have a policy with some obscure War clauses in it that you haven't noticed and may not be to your advantage. For your personal policies you may be required to pay an additional premium to effect full cover, worth checking!
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Is it not amazing that an airline takes prudent steps to reduce risks (and, perhaps, to retain insurance cover) and all these idiots jump up and down complaining?
If they are happy to keep their heads in the sand I suggest they fly Saudia or Gulf - a risk I was never happy with. If they consider some of the previous accidents of both of these airlines and ponder on the root causes they might think it wiser to put up with a stop at Larnaca.
Sirwa 69 - did you mean 'God, you people' or was it meant to be 'Allah, you infidels'?
If they are happy to keep their heads in the sand I suggest they fly Saudia or Gulf - a risk I was never happy with. If they consider some of the previous accidents of both of these airlines and ponder on the root causes they might think it wiser to put up with a stop at Larnaca.
Sirwa 69 - did you mean 'God, you people' or was it meant to be 'Allah, you infidels'?
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There seems to be an awful lot of slating of BA going on here because they've decided to rejig services to the region. Well just in case you haven't noticed, with the exception of Dubai, the FCO has advised against ALL NON-ESSENTIAL TRAVEL to the region. BA have always been guided by the advice of the FCO and their own security team, and when the FCO says no, we don't go. Its been de facto policy for a long time and we've stayed in some of the worlds trouble spots for a lot longer than most. We were the last western airline to pull out of Jakarta when it kicked off there a few years ago and our customers thanked us for it.
There may be a few 'hard case' western expats over in the Gulf, and some of them may feel pretty safe living in fortified compounds or driving their SUVs with blacked out windows but generally keeping a low profile. Let me remind you that BA crews arrive in a big red,white and blue aeroplane with our flag on the tail, they wear obvious uniforms, travel in identifiable transport to public hotels and have virtually no protection. If there was ever a soft target for a crank gunman then thats it.
We know for a fact that loopy al-qaeda sympathisers are lose in Kuwait and Saudi. A British citizen was murdered in Saudi last week, and he was travelling incognito. Can you guarantee there aren't sympathisers in Bahrain, Qatar or the UAE (which provided one of the Sept 11th hijackers). Can you guarantee that once the war starts there won't be volunteers to the cause?
BA will probably lose some passengers to Emirates and Gulf Air while the schedules are disrupted, but once the war starts proper I don't think they'll see too many passengers from the UK anyway.
There may be a few 'hard case' western expats over in the Gulf, and some of them may feel pretty safe living in fortified compounds or driving their SUVs with blacked out windows but generally keeping a low profile. Let me remind you that BA crews arrive in a big red,white and blue aeroplane with our flag on the tail, they wear obvious uniforms, travel in identifiable transport to public hotels and have virtually no protection. If there was ever a soft target for a crank gunman then thats it.
We know for a fact that loopy al-qaeda sympathisers are lose in Kuwait and Saudi. A British citizen was murdered in Saudi last week, and he was travelling incognito. Can you guarantee there aren't sympathisers in Bahrain, Qatar or the UAE (which provided one of the Sept 11th hijackers). Can you guarantee that once the war starts there won't be volunteers to the cause?
BA will probably lose some passengers to Emirates and Gulf Air while the schedules are disrupted, but once the war starts proper I don't think they'll see too many passengers from the UK anyway.
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Er....my understanding is that this is a forum, which implies the opportunity to discuss contentious issues in a balanced and adult fashion. Labelling people who disagree with your viewpoint as "idiots" hardly advances the debate, and branding us as a bunch of mindless Mad Max refugees is kindergarten stuff - this is a serious issue which merits serious debate.
If you re-read my earlier post, I specifically refrained from slagging off BA other than to question the logic of the decision. If the Gulf is that dangerous, then why fly here at all? As someone said early, the FCO advisory has more than a touch of CYA, especially as they got caught with their pants down over Bali and don't want to be exposed again in this way.
With regard to the degree of public exposure - there are many of us known in small communities as representatives of British and American businesses who maintain public profiles at least equal to any airline representative, and it is frankly insulting to belittle us in such terms. We maintain our presence because we believe the risks are acceptable, not because we wish to live out some macho Hemingway fantasy. If you wish to discuss the risk, then fine, but if you wish to swap insults, I suggest you find somewhere else to do it. Getting hysterical and defensive does nothing to aid anybody's understanding......
Still in the (metaphorical) bunker.
If you re-read my earlier post, I specifically refrained from slagging off BA other than to question the logic of the decision. If the Gulf is that dangerous, then why fly here at all? As someone said early, the FCO advisory has more than a touch of CYA, especially as they got caught with their pants down over Bali and don't want to be exposed again in this way.
With regard to the degree of public exposure - there are many of us known in small communities as representatives of British and American businesses who maintain public profiles at least equal to any airline representative, and it is frankly insulting to belittle us in such terms. We maintain our presence because we believe the risks are acceptable, not because we wish to live out some macho Hemingway fantasy. If you wish to discuss the risk, then fine, but if you wish to swap insults, I suggest you find somewhere else to do it. Getting hysterical and defensive does nothing to aid anybody's understanding......
Still in the (metaphorical) bunker.