European Airlines in trouble?
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posted 25th January 2003 19:45
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European Aviation
So I hear European, true to form are making a complete hash of their operation out in Saudi Arabia. They are on the verge of being dumped by Saudia, scrambling around to get crews together, aircraft going tech, pilots resigning, cabin crew resigning, last minute changes. A real mess from what I hear. There must be some crew out there who can tell us if the things we hear are true? Is it true that European promised $75 over and above the daily rate and then it turned out the $75 was instead of the daily rate which means it is hardly worth the persons time to be out there? Is the breakfast in the hotel included in the daily allowance? Do you get days off owed to you when you get back to the UK as you have gone out to another base other than your own? Is anyone watching the legalities of your FTP and contract agreements, like fair rostering and 28 day roster periods? How much notice do you get to roster changes?
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European Aviation
So I hear European, true to form are making a complete hash of their operation out in Saudi Arabia. They are on the verge of being dumped by Saudia, scrambling around to get crews together, aircraft going tech, pilots resigning, cabin crew resigning, last minute changes. A real mess from what I hear. There must be some crew out there who can tell us if the things we hear are true? Is it true that European promised $75 over and above the daily rate and then it turned out the $75 was instead of the daily rate which means it is hardly worth the persons time to be out there? Is the breakfast in the hotel included in the daily allowance? Do you get days off owed to you when you get back to the UK as you have gone out to another base other than your own? Is anyone watching the legalities of your FTP and contract agreements, like fair rostering and 28 day roster periods? How much notice do you get to roster changes?
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Air Atlanta are sending one 767 and one 747 to Jeddah to do the Hajj at short notice. Whether European are out of there now or not I don't know but the above sentence is true I can assure you.
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The guys at Manston say a whole bunch of Atlanta cabin crew are positioning out to JED today(28th) to work for Saudia on a 767-300,and that a 747 is going too.All a last minute requirement.
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All I can say is that I wish you well in Jeddah. I assume all those who are "Jeddah" based will be awarded with your due days off at LGW base. Read your contracts. If you are LGW based you should get 8 days per 28 day roster period. As you are out in Jeddah you are not at base therefore owed these days off at LGW. The only way you should do days off down route is if the company officially changes your base to Jeddah by letter. Your contracts also state that you should get 7 days notice of days off, otherwise they are breaking your contracts. You should get 14 days notice of your rosters, if not they are breaking your contracts. As per your Operations Manual Section 10, you should be notified at the beginning of the roster year of each roster publication date: They never do that, another breach of your contracts. European do whatever they want. They make up the rules to suit them. They are being investigated right now by the CAA and I hope you all stick to your guns and ask European to play ball and respect your contracts, otherwise you may aswell wipe your a**** with them.
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That's just 2 that you know of. So the letters of termination are going out now as we speak. Those of you who haven't licked a** will be terminated. Those of you who never worked on a jumbo in your lives, but were two faced enough to text Cruella De Vill enough got your purser promotion. Inexperienced 21 year old pursers, who said the nice things to Cruella got promoted.Those who texted Cruella more got even further, IFD. The way promotions were dealt with was laughable. "Go to Kuala Lumpur for 3 months and we will make you Purser". Will the new European livery feature the mafia insignia, as that is how the company operates. If you know your rights and question them, they get all jumpy and start to scramble around at Bournemouth, closing in against you. The whitches coven closes ranks, the "friends of friends" of managers, arbitrarily promote people, terminate others purely on a personal basis, not on merit. I watch with anticipation as European goes down the pan. They are pretty close to resembling a closed little club, a coven, like the freemasons. If you're favoured then you're OK. If you don't go the way of the management, then you're out. As for the spineless Head of Cabin Services, he may as well not be there as he doesn't make decisions on contracts, that's left to "Cruella" and the vile poisonous head of Personnel.
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Air Atlanta steps in on Sadia hajj contract!!
Any truth in the current rumour that the 'start-up' company, using the two ex-Kuwaiti B747-269s, has collapsed yet again, that's twice, over the past three weeks!
And further, that AAI is stepping in, as expected, to pick up the pieces, and establish some sort of organised flight schedule.
Two aircraft, I believe!
Anybody ???
see ya!
And further, that AAI is stepping in, as expected, to pick up the pieces, and establish some sort of organised flight schedule.
Two aircraft, I believe!
Anybody ???
see ya!
Yes, it's true.
I'm in Kuala Lumpur right now, and I'm heading off to Jeddah tomorrow morning to start on a 747-200 there that we have. We also have a 767 there as well.
That's all I know, I have no idea how long, where we're going, etc.
I'm in Kuala Lumpur right now, and I'm heading off to Jeddah tomorrow morning to start on a 747-200 there that we have. We also have a 767 there as well.
That's all I know, I have no idea how long, where we're going, etc.
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I've got to say guys that I'm dissapointed and saddened by those of you that seem to take extreme delight by other airline's problems, whether those problems are real or just as a result of shortsighted mischievous comments by some.
It might appear that you have an apparent advantage if some other carrier fails, for whatever reason. Maybe you think your own airline can gain some short term advantage by sneaking in and picking up the remnants of a contract, thereby giving you more employment security as a result? Think of the long term implications of another carriers demise! More pilots on the market, many of whom may be more experienced and better qualified than you are. So how secure does that make you? Every pilot who looses a job becomes a competitor to you and your livelihood. Is that what you want?
You don't have to go back very far to see the consequences of past airline misfortunes. Remember the last Gulf conflict and the effect it had on aviation? I don't think anyone escaped some form of repurcussion from that.
Not a good time to be smug about things, for sure. Also, as professionals, the mighty 'unwashed' would naturally expect a bit more decorum from those that judge themselves to be a 'cut above the rest'.
I'll expect a reasonably agressive reaction from those I have jolted here by these comments; fine, I can take it and maybe it will get you 'thinking outside the box'!
As far as European is concerned, my sources tell me lots of good things happening there in terms of other/future contracts, but hell, who am I to know if that's true. I hope it is.
Have a nice day everyone <s>
H
It might appear that you have an apparent advantage if some other carrier fails, for whatever reason. Maybe you think your own airline can gain some short term advantage by sneaking in and picking up the remnants of a contract, thereby giving you more employment security as a result? Think of the long term implications of another carriers demise! More pilots on the market, many of whom may be more experienced and better qualified than you are. So how secure does that make you? Every pilot who looses a job becomes a competitor to you and your livelihood. Is that what you want?
You don't have to go back very far to see the consequences of past airline misfortunes. Remember the last Gulf conflict and the effect it had on aviation? I don't think anyone escaped some form of repurcussion from that.
Not a good time to be smug about things, for sure. Also, as professionals, the mighty 'unwashed' would naturally expect a bit more decorum from those that judge themselves to be a 'cut above the rest'.
I'll expect a reasonably agressive reaction from those I have jolted here by these comments; fine, I can take it and maybe it will get you 'thinking outside the box'!
As far as European is concerned, my sources tell me lots of good things happening there in terms of other/future contracts, but hell, who am I to know if that's true. I hope it is.
Have a nice day everyone <s>
H
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eaac
Come on you people,give EAAC a chance,OK so maybe they are
having a few problems out in Saudi,but who hasnt.We all know that its not easy to operate out there.And European are new at this game,so put the knives away, and cut them a little slack.I have no reason to support European ,as I used to work there and they shafted me,but I know there are still allot of good folks working there,who I wouldnt like to see out of work. So instead of
being critical(about something which most of you obviously know very little).Why not support our fellow workers and wish all at EAAC well.
having a few problems out in Saudi,but who hasnt.We all know that its not easy to operate out there.And European are new at this game,so put the knives away, and cut them a little slack.I have no reason to support European ,as I used to work there and they shafted me,but I know there are still allot of good folks working there,who I wouldnt like to see out of work. So instead of
being critical(about something which most of you obviously know very little).Why not support our fellow workers and wish all at EAAC well.
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I think those of you who think EAC is doing O.K. should think again. Just some very basic research would reveal the following.
Accounts due 31-10-02 for the period to 31-12-01 now seriously overdue at companies house.
Accounts for year to 31-12-00 Operating Loss of £(2.48m)
Current gas guzzling fleet of aged B737-200 and B747-200 with current high fuel prices.
Very poor winter.
All of this would certainly seem to indicate that the rumours here are not without merit. There are always lots of rumours circulating, but suppose one is to ignore the rumours, the facts don’t look too good either !
Accounts due 31-10-02 for the period to 31-12-01 now seriously overdue at companies house.
Accounts for year to 31-12-00 Operating Loss of £(2.48m)
Current gas guzzling fleet of aged B737-200 and B747-200 with current high fuel prices.
Very poor winter.
All of this would certainly seem to indicate that the rumours here are not without merit. There are always lots of rumours circulating, but suppose one is to ignore the rumours, the facts don’t look too good either !
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DH, if you cherry pick your facts, to the unintiated they may sound ok, in reality, the game's not over until its over, white knights etc, your facts.....
so accounts are late...how many late accounts in the UK?
so there's an op loss, but is it manageable?, does it matter to the incoming ?
Don't all tubes guzzle gas at similar prices?
Poor winter..answer as for op loss.
Rumours are rumours, if you want merit, forget rumours.
If you want facts, get some essentials....but not freely available. MrB must have a plan, understand his initial crew message was good, hope there's more of the same.
I'm with PeterC, let's hope for success, there's enough good people's jobs riding on it. It would make a pleasant change from doom and ****ing gloom.
so accounts are late...how many late accounts in the UK?
so there's an op loss, but is it manageable?, does it matter to the incoming ?
Don't all tubes guzzle gas at similar prices?
Poor winter..answer as for op loss.
Rumours are rumours, if you want merit, forget rumours.
If you want facts, get some essentials....but not freely available. MrB must have a plan, understand his initial crew message was good, hope there's more of the same.
I'm with PeterC, let's hope for success, there's enough good people's jobs riding on it. It would make a pleasant change from doom and ****ing gloom.
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"Don't all tubes guzzle gas at similar prices?"
No, most majors hedged their fuel prices when the barrell was at USD 25.....it is now at 33. Unlikely that European would have had that oportunity as a result of it's size of operation......may be mistaken.
However what DH was refering to is the fuel economy of said types when compared to a modern fleet. For example a classic will burn approx 6% more fuel than a 400 over a 9 hour sector.....that is a lot of coin that could have gone elsewhere. To balance the arguement you can pick up a good classic for 30-40 mill whilst a 400 was around the 140 mark until the latest dark cloud decended on us all.
No, most majors hedged their fuel prices when the barrell was at USD 25.....it is now at 33. Unlikely that European would have had that oportunity as a result of it's size of operation......may be mistaken.
However what DH was refering to is the fuel economy of said types when compared to a modern fleet. For example a classic will burn approx 6% more fuel than a 400 over a 9 hour sector.....that is a lot of coin that could have gone elsewhere. To balance the arguement you can pick up a good classic for 30-40 mill whilst a 400 was around the 140 mark until the latest dark cloud decended on us all.
Just another number
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I believe that most of the EAAC contracts are on an ACMI basis. Therefore the fuel costs are paid by the lessor and do not appear in EAACs balance sheet.
Airclues
Airclues
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I thought EAL bought the -200s for million a piece. Which included one a/c where BA had just spent over a million on a new first class/Club cabin for it- thus virtually giving it away to EAL.
I hope EAL do well- surely the introduction of the 747 wasn't going to be easy- just a steep learning curve for a while.
I hope EAL do well- surely the introduction of the 747 wasn't going to be easy- just a steep learning curve for a while.
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Many of you who work for eac may not be aware that you have your own website at eacinfo.co.uk which is very good.
Although the management read it on a routine basis, it is mainly for you to make comments and general discussion about the operation.
The Management also have the opportunity to give an official response on the site.
It would be better for you to access the site if you have genuine concerns about European rather than engage in petty sniping in public. You will also stand a better chance of highlighting problems and influencing their solution.
Although the management read it on a routine basis, it is mainly for you to make comments and general discussion about the operation.
The Management also have the opportunity to give an official response on the site.
It would be better for you to access the site if you have genuine concerns about European rather than engage in petty sniping in public. You will also stand a better chance of highlighting problems and influencing their solution.
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Moneyshot
Well said. To be honest those with genuine concerns have probably not contributed to the thread. The few individuals that have been most vindictive probably have a secret agenda, or some other axe to grind. Sad, but true. This kind of phenomenna is not restricted to EAC but abounds all over Pprune! As a group, 'pilots' can be 'real bitches' (as in the Essex kind)!
Well said. To be honest those with genuine concerns have probably not contributed to the thread. The few individuals that have been most vindictive probably have a secret agenda, or some other axe to grind. Sad, but true. This kind of phenomenna is not restricted to EAC but abounds all over Pprune! As a group, 'pilots' can be 'real bitches' (as in the Essex kind)!
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The 747-200's and flight simulator were sold as a package for $5Million ish. I don't think EAL has paid the balance to BA yet.
The arrival of Bath Travel as investor/ owners (not sure which) has led to a valuable cash injection.
I heard that EAL were shafted over a promised $10 Million refinance by an unscrupulous outfit called Eurosolve based up in Glasgow - anyone got any gen on this?
The arrival of Bath Travel as investor/ owners (not sure which) has led to a valuable cash injection.
I heard that EAL were shafted over a promised $10 Million refinance by an unscrupulous outfit called Eurosolve based up in Glasgow - anyone got any gen on this?
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Laidback,
As you have raised certain questions in your post, I would like to reply.
so accounts are late...how many late accounts in the UK?
A. Many companies file accounts late, but not usually without a good reason for doing so, which is often because they wish to keep information out of the public domain as long as possible.
so there's an op loss, but is it manageable?,
Of course, any operating loss is manageable if you have the cash flow to do it. The significance of this particular scenario is that the cumulative losses for 2000, 2001, 2002 are likely to be considerably more than the last recorded loss of £2.48m.
does it matter to the incoming ?
Who can say, we have not seen the figures for 2001, 2002, but given the equipment they fly, and the other problems they have, any purchaser would need to have a very good reason to buy them, and probably deep pockets.
Don't all tubes guzzle gas at similar prices?
A. No, the fleet operated by European is of the 1970s vintage, old equipment with high maintenance costs and high fuel burns. Our company has done a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of operating old and new, and yes there are savings on fixed costs, but the direct costs are very high by comparison.
Poor winter..answer as for op loss.
A. Not quite so, the operating loss reflects a yearly accumulative figure, so if the airline was profitable it would still show a bottom line profit, a poor winter would affect cash flow.
I only did a couple of very basic checks to establish the facts I posted, I have a lot of experience from the corporate world, and take an active interest in the commercial position of airlines. I will not volunteer an opinion on this particular one, but I do wish all who are employed there the very best of luck whatever happens.
As you have raised certain questions in your post, I would like to reply.
so accounts are late...how many late accounts in the UK?
A. Many companies file accounts late, but not usually without a good reason for doing so, which is often because they wish to keep information out of the public domain as long as possible.
so there's an op loss, but is it manageable?,
Of course, any operating loss is manageable if you have the cash flow to do it. The significance of this particular scenario is that the cumulative losses for 2000, 2001, 2002 are likely to be considerably more than the last recorded loss of £2.48m.
does it matter to the incoming ?
Who can say, we have not seen the figures for 2001, 2002, but given the equipment they fly, and the other problems they have, any purchaser would need to have a very good reason to buy them, and probably deep pockets.
Don't all tubes guzzle gas at similar prices?
A. No, the fleet operated by European is of the 1970s vintage, old equipment with high maintenance costs and high fuel burns. Our company has done a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of operating old and new, and yes there are savings on fixed costs, but the direct costs are very high by comparison.
Poor winter..answer as for op loss.
A. Not quite so, the operating loss reflects a yearly accumulative figure, so if the airline was profitable it would still show a bottom line profit, a poor winter would affect cash flow.
I only did a couple of very basic checks to establish the facts I posted, I have a lot of experience from the corporate world, and take an active interest in the commercial position of airlines. I will not volunteer an opinion on this particular one, but I do wish all who are employed there the very best of luck whatever happens.