Bermuda II Talks
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Bermuda II, again
So tomorrow is the day that the UK and US goverments get together to decide if they are going to allow more competition on the LHR transatlantic routes.
Has anyone heard of possible outcomes, and how bad will it be for bmi if they don't get the long awaited access they so desperately want?
Has anyone heard of possible outcomes, and how bad will it be for bmi if they don't get the long awaited access they so desperately want?
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A long awaited gamble on BMI's part.....that might not pay off!!
If UAL are suffering, what makes you think BMI will make a success of things?
They might be a Star Alliance partner but, its interesting they're going down the lo-cost route...maybe to save their butts!!!!
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........If life were only bizjets.................................
If UAL are suffering, what makes you think BMI will make a success of things?
They might be a Star Alliance partner but, its interesting they're going down the lo-cost route...maybe to save their butts!!!!
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........If life were only bizjets.................................
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From BBC News.
Thursday, 15 August, 2002, 17:04 GMT 18:04 UK
'Open skies' talks resume
Negotiators from the US and the UK are meeting in Washington to try to find a way of relaxing the rules on air travel between the two countries.
The so-called 'open skies' talks include the possibility of allowing more airlines to fly to the US from London's Heathrow airport.
At present, under a deal known as Bermuda 2, only four airlines are allowed to fly between Heathrow and the United States.
These are Virgin Atlantic and British Airways from the UK and United Airlines and American Airlines from the US.
Limited measures
Advocates of an open skies deal say a greater choice of airlines will bring lower fares.
But previous attempts to open up Heathrow have failed, with BA reluctant to surrender its landing slots to rival carriers.
In order to try to make some progress, the UK government is reported be proposing limited reform measures.
These would allow the UK carrier BMI British Midland to fly to the US, in return for one of either Continental, Delta or Northwest airlines being allowed to fly into Heathrow.
Passenger benefits
The chairman of BMI British Midland, Sir Michael Bishop, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that change was long overdue.
"There's no question that it's inconsistent with what is happening in Europe and on domestic routes in the UK that there shouldn't be progressive liberalisation on services on the North Atlantic," he said.
"There's no question... that the consumer benefits from a wider choice of airlines both in terms of new destinations which can be served and the range of prices that can be offered."
BMI British Midland already has an operation at Heathrow, and Alexander Campbell at Flight International magazine told the BBC the airline could gain big benefits from such a deal.
"Under whatever conditions are imposed it would still be great for them to be able to link their European network in with the very valuable American east coast market," he said.
But the talks may be superseded by measures expected from Brussels.
Later this year the European Commission is expected to begin negotiating 'open skies' deals with non-European Union countries on behalf of all EU governments.
Thursday, 15 August, 2002, 17:04 GMT 18:04 UK
'Open skies' talks resume
Negotiators from the US and the UK are meeting in Washington to try to find a way of relaxing the rules on air travel between the two countries.
The so-called 'open skies' talks include the possibility of allowing more airlines to fly to the US from London's Heathrow airport.
At present, under a deal known as Bermuda 2, only four airlines are allowed to fly between Heathrow and the United States.
These are Virgin Atlantic and British Airways from the UK and United Airlines and American Airlines from the US.
Limited measures
Advocates of an open skies deal say a greater choice of airlines will bring lower fares.
But previous attempts to open up Heathrow have failed, with BA reluctant to surrender its landing slots to rival carriers.
In order to try to make some progress, the UK government is reported be proposing limited reform measures.
These would allow the UK carrier BMI British Midland to fly to the US, in return for one of either Continental, Delta or Northwest airlines being allowed to fly into Heathrow.
Passenger benefits
The chairman of BMI British Midland, Sir Michael Bishop, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that change was long overdue.
"There's no question that it's inconsistent with what is happening in Europe and on domestic routes in the UK that there shouldn't be progressive liberalisation on services on the North Atlantic," he said.
"There's no question... that the consumer benefits from a wider choice of airlines both in terms of new destinations which can be served and the range of prices that can be offered."
BMI British Midland already has an operation at Heathrow, and Alexander Campbell at Flight International magazine told the BBC the airline could gain big benefits from such a deal.
"Under whatever conditions are imposed it would still be great for them to be able to link their European network in with the very valuable American east coast market," he said.
But the talks may be superseded by measures expected from Brussels.
Later this year the European Commission is expected to begin negotiating 'open skies' deals with non-European Union countries on behalf of all EU governments.
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US/UK and Heathrow: what's the latest?
Just curious as to whether there was any development with regard to access to LHR. In particular, I'm curious as to why the UK chose to nominate two carriers from the UK, when there appears to be only one in a position to launch services from LHR, BMI. Why not give BMI an equal number of slots to the combined number for the two new US carriers?
Also, there appears to be a number of US cities - DFW, ATL, IAH, for example - which don't have direct access to LHR. If CO/DL get in, the latter two will presumably be moved to LHR and BA will be able to move its services to these cities across, but what about DFW. Will BA/AA be allowed to move their DFW services to LHR?
Finally, the increasingly political nature of access to LHR surely underlines the importance of the third runway at LHR. If LHR has a "full" sign over it, then it will affect the ability of British carriers to get greater access to international airports, foreign carriers being understandably unwilling to settle for LGW, STN etc.
Also, there appears to be a number of US cities - DFW, ATL, IAH, for example - which don't have direct access to LHR. If CO/DL get in, the latter two will presumably be moved to LHR and BA will be able to move its services to these cities across, but what about DFW. Will BA/AA be allowed to move their DFW services to LHR?
Finally, the increasingly political nature of access to LHR surely underlines the importance of the third runway at LHR. If LHR has a "full" sign over it, then it will affect the ability of British carriers to get greater access to international airports, foreign carriers being understandably unwilling to settle for LGW, STN etc.
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BMI looks to America
David Gow
Saturday August 17, 2002
The Guardian
The government has given the nod to BMI British Midland to apply to run flights from Heathrow, London, to the US, a long-cherished goal of Britain's second largest airline.
A breakthrough in the logjam that has held up agreement between the UK and US on "open skies" or liberalisation of transatlantic services for several years came in informal talks in Washington late on Thursday.
A surprise UK proposal, effectively bypassing long-standing resistance by British Airways and Virgin Atlantic to giving up their duopoly at Heathrow, would give other airlines - British as well as American - four extra daily flights to the US over the next two years.
"We anticipate that BMI British Midland will apply to be a designated airline," Whitehall officials said yesterday. "It's up to the US to distribute these extra frequencies among their designated airlines."
David Gow
Saturday August 17, 2002
The Guardian
The government has given the nod to BMI British Midland to apply to run flights from Heathrow, London, to the US, a long-cherished goal of Britain's second largest airline.
A breakthrough in the logjam that has held up agreement between the UK and US on "open skies" or liberalisation of transatlantic services for several years came in informal talks in Washington late on Thursday.
A surprise UK proposal, effectively bypassing long-standing resistance by British Airways and Virgin Atlantic to giving up their duopoly at Heathrow, would give other airlines - British as well as American - four extra daily flights to the US over the next two years.
"We anticipate that BMI British Midland will apply to be a designated airline," Whitehall officials said yesterday. "It's up to the US to distribute these extra frequencies among their designated airlines."
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BMI looks to America
David Gow
Saturday August 17, 2002
The Guardian
The government has given the nod to BMI British Midland to apply to run flights from Heathrow, London, to the US, a long-cherished goal of Britain's second largest airline.
A breakthrough in the logjam that has held up agreement between the UK and US on "open skies" or liberalisation of transatlantic services for several years came in informal talks in Washington late on Thursday.
A surprise UK proposal, effectively bypassing long-standing resistance by British Airways and Virgin Atlantic to giving up their duopoly at Heathrow, would give other airlines - British as well as American - four extra daily flights to the US over the next two years.
"We anticipate that BMI British Midland will apply to be a designated airline," Whitehall officials said yesterday. "It's up to the US to distribute these extra frequencies among their designated airlines."
David Gow
Saturday August 17, 2002
The Guardian
The government has given the nod to BMI British Midland to apply to run flights from Heathrow, London, to the US, a long-cherished goal of Britain's second largest airline.
A breakthrough in the logjam that has held up agreement between the UK and US on "open skies" or liberalisation of transatlantic services for several years came in informal talks in Washington late on Thursday.
A surprise UK proposal, effectively bypassing long-standing resistance by British Airways and Virgin Atlantic to giving up their duopoly at Heathrow, would give other airlines - British as well as American - four extra daily flights to the US over the next two years.
"We anticipate that BMI British Midland will apply to be a designated airline," Whitehall officials said yesterday. "It's up to the US to distribute these extra frequencies among their designated airlines."
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Bermuda II talks fail again?
Contrary to newspaper reports at the weekend, Flight International reports that talks in Washington last week ended without progress with no further prospects of talks. This won't surprise many and I am inclined to believe the Flight version of events. More frustration for BMI.
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Personally i think not getting into LHR could be a blessing as they have spent all this money getting MAN up and running and its bean close to busy all summer. They are just getting established in MAN so pulling out of MAN to go to LHR would put them back to square one and would mean job lose in MAN......
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Bryan - many take the contrary view that the long-term future of the MAN services is dependant upon bmi gaining access to LHR. Remember, "being busy" is no indicator of profitability per se and the general feeling is that the returns from running a two-ship operation in a low-yield market are not that great. LHR services will mean that the fixed costs of the transatlantic operation will be absorbed across a broader income base and the MAN operation will be more cost-efficient as a result.
Remember also that Bishop didn't set up the transatlantic operation to feed inter-lining pax into UA hubs in ORD and IAD out of MAN. His 'dream' is to compete with BA for the lucrative front-end passengers out of LHR. If he can't get the latter, I suspect there won't be much appetite to persist with the former.
682
Remember also that Bishop didn't set up the transatlantic operation to feed inter-lining pax into UA hubs in ORD and IAD out of MAN. His 'dream' is to compete with BA for the lucrative front-end passengers out of LHR. If he can't get the latter, I suspect there won't be much appetite to persist with the former.
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682.
There is no question that the US flights being set up at MAN was a stepping stone to the operation ending up at LHR but at the moment if BMI are losing as much as they say they are losing from US flights then what makes them so sure they have what it takes to go to LHR and compete with BA etc.
All i know is that i find it very strange that BMI continue to talk of loss on US flights from MAN when it has constantly leaves with 200+ pax and 15000kg+ of frt.
I guess what i am trying to say is i am not too such that BMI can survive at LHR with the amount of competition and the state of the industry.
Watch this space?
There is no question that the US flights being set up at MAN was a stepping stone to the operation ending up at LHR but at the moment if BMI are losing as much as they say they are losing from US flights then what makes them so sure they have what it takes to go to LHR and compete with BA etc.
All i know is that i find it very strange that BMI continue to talk of loss on US flights from MAN when it has constantly leaves with 200+ pax and 15000kg+ of frt.
I guess what i am trying to say is i am not too such that BMI can survive at LHR with the amount of competition and the state of the industry.
Watch this space?
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bmi have said previously that it would take around 3 years for the MAN transatlantic operation to be profitable but with what happened last year, they are invoking the 3 year period from this year.
If I remember correctly, the pair of A330s on the routes were originally configured for operating out of LHR but with the impasse going on, they were rejigged for a MAN-suitable configuration which took a bit longer than they thought as the launch dates of both routes were put back a bit.
Whatever happens, I'm pretty sure that the MAN services will remain with the 3rd A330 at MAN and the 4th at TLS and probably A330 numbers 5 and 6 all being used for LHR operations, with the next MAN long-haul service commencing in around 2004/2005. But, it certainly wouldn't harm their MAN operation if they could put together a hub system in place that is greater than it is at present.
If I remember correctly, the pair of A330s on the routes were originally configured for operating out of LHR but with the impasse going on, they were rejigged for a MAN-suitable configuration which took a bit longer than they thought as the launch dates of both routes were put back a bit.
Whatever happens, I'm pretty sure that the MAN services will remain with the 3rd A330 at MAN and the 4th at TLS and probably A330 numbers 5 and 6 all being used for LHR operations, with the next MAN long-haul service commencing in around 2004/2005. But, it certainly wouldn't harm their MAN operation if they could put together a hub system in place that is greater than it is at present.
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Ringwayman - only problem with that is 4th A330 at TLS has already been sold from the production line so is not on the way and they are at present trying to line up a buyer for number 3, possible rumours are LH
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I'm pretty sure that should Bmi start operating out of LHR, that the first two routes would be IAD and ORD. A lot of investment has gone into those two stations and it makes sense that they deal with two daily inbounds each i.e. from LHR and MAN. (economies of scale etc,) It would be very unlikely therefore for Manchester operations to be sacrificed should open skies finally happen.
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I hope that BMI do get the routes out of LHR, but what I can't understand is why Sir Michael is so intent on flying to the States from LHR. I know it was a lucrative business route, but that's not the case any more. More and more companies are insisting that there executives fly in the "upgraded economy" cabin such as "World Traveller Plus" and not in Club or First. There is however other routes to Asia and South Africa where the demand for Premium traffic is still high. All that being said, I know that the service on the Longhaul routes from Man are doing well, and I'm sure that it will be big competition for the "Big Boy's". But I do think that old Midland would be better off on other routes. 
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BMI BREAKTHROUGH ON FLIGHTS TO U.S.
This looks like good news for bmi.
If the report is correct what routes would be served, ORD, IAD and what other two?
Report from Derby Evening Telegraph
Bmi British Midland has cautiously made new progress towards achieving its aim of flying to the United States from Heathrow.
The Castle Donington airline said the outcome of latest Government talks with Washington, aimed at liberalising the transatlantic air market, would give it "a foot in the door" for launching services.
The Government said it proposed a limited liberalisation deal to U.S. officials.
The plan, while not fully liberalising the market, would ease current restrictions, under which only four airlines can fly to the U.S from Heathrow.
Under the proposal, UK and U.S. airlines currently unable to fly the routes could run four extra daily Heathrow-U.S. flights.
A statement from the British Embassy in Washington said the deal would introduce more competition and pave the way for full liberalisation later.
It added: "The U.S. administration undertook to consider the UK proposals, in consultation with its industry, and to respond in due course."
A BMI spokesman said: "If some slots will be available at Heathrow for BMI, the airline would take the opportunity to run transatlantic services.
"However, BMI would regard this as a foot in the door.
"This is partial liberalisation and not the whole scale liberalisation for which we continue to press."
www.derbyeveningtelegraph.co.uk
If the report is correct what routes would be served, ORD, IAD and what other two?
Report from Derby Evening Telegraph
Bmi British Midland has cautiously made new progress towards achieving its aim of flying to the United States from Heathrow.
The Castle Donington airline said the outcome of latest Government talks with Washington, aimed at liberalising the transatlantic air market, would give it "a foot in the door" for launching services.
The Government said it proposed a limited liberalisation deal to U.S. officials.
The plan, while not fully liberalising the market, would ease current restrictions, under which only four airlines can fly to the U.S from Heathrow.
Under the proposal, UK and U.S. airlines currently unable to fly the routes could run four extra daily Heathrow-U.S. flights.
A statement from the British Embassy in Washington said the deal would introduce more competition and pave the way for full liberalisation later.
It added: "The U.S. administration undertook to consider the UK proposals, in consultation with its industry, and to respond in due course."
A BMI spokesman said: "If some slots will be available at Heathrow for BMI, the airline would take the opportunity to run transatlantic services.
"However, BMI would regard this as a foot in the door.
"This is partial liberalisation and not the whole scale liberalisation for which we continue to press."
www.derbyeveningtelegraph.co.uk
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Not quite there yet...
I dont think bmi are quite there yet. If this 'loosening' of the restriction goes ahead, then yes, it looks like bmi's foot will certainly be in the door.
However, the plan has only been laid on the table - its up to the american's to agree to it now. The american's have traditionally been reluctant to go for this idea on the basis that they would have difficulty in deciding which of their many airlines would get the golden opportunity to fly into LHR.
The major factor is gonna be time. The american's have not been given a time limit as to when they must come back with their reply. However, as far as i understand it, its not long to go until the EC will take over the process of negotiating 'open skies' deals for members states - in which case the urgency of the situation will be lost and it may be many more years before there is any progress.
Lets hope the americans get their skates on.
However, the plan has only been laid on the table - its up to the american's to agree to it now. The american's have traditionally been reluctant to go for this idea on the basis that they would have difficulty in deciding which of their many airlines would get the golden opportunity to fly into LHR.
The major factor is gonna be time. The american's have not been given a time limit as to when they must come back with their reply. However, as far as i understand it, its not long to go until the EC will take over the process of negotiating 'open skies' deals for members states - in which case the urgency of the situation will be lost and it may be many more years before there is any progress.
Lets hope the americans get their skates on.
