New air carrier from Wales
Join Date: Jul 2015
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In all honesty, why is there a clamber for a national airline. In Scotland we have one that’s specifically for the geography of Scotland ie Loganair but if you ask Joe Public they’ll be pushed to name it, I definitely wouldn’t call it a flag carrier. If demand for flights from Wales was there the European carriers would come. The U.K. (the GB bit) can for air travel divided in to top, middle and bottom. EDI & GLA basically serve the North ie Scotland down to Carlisle & Newcastle in the South, MAN & BHX pick up the middle and BRS & the London Airports the south. Smaller airports have their own markets ie ABZ, NCL EMA, CWL and the like.
There’s really no flag carriers in U.K. in the traditional sense of LH, KL, AF or in ME3.
The 4 main British companies are Jet2.com, Thomas Cook, Flybe & Easyjet none can be classed as flag carriers.
BA is Spanish (IAG)
FR is Eire
VS is US/NLD/FRA/GBR owned
TUI is DEU
So that leaves the small regional carries like Loganair & Eastern. What really does Wales get out of a state owned airline apart from its taxpayers paying higher taxes to pay for a tailfin on a empty plane??
You’re talking about a flight from Valley to London for tourists. That’s as pointless as a flight from London to Isle of Skye which has a greater tourism sector than Anglesey. It’s also further away from its two closet airports in GLA & INV but its tourist trade is booming because like Anglesey people will fly into nearest international airport and hire a car (and it’ll still be cheaper than flying direct).
There’s better money taxpayers money needs to be spent on in Wales, NHS, roads, schools & the like. Not 737s and A320s flying to Malaga with a Welsh dragon on its tail.
There’s really no flag carriers in U.K. in the traditional sense of LH, KL, AF or in ME3.
The 4 main British companies are Jet2.com, Thomas Cook, Flybe & Easyjet none can be classed as flag carriers.
BA is Spanish (IAG)
FR is Eire
VS is US/NLD/FRA/GBR owned
TUI is DEU
So that leaves the small regional carries like Loganair & Eastern. What really does Wales get out of a state owned airline apart from its taxpayers paying higher taxes to pay for a tailfin on a empty plane??
You’re talking about a flight from Valley to London for tourists. That’s as pointless as a flight from London to Isle of Skye which has a greater tourism sector than Anglesey. It’s also further away from its two closet airports in GLA & INV but its tourist trade is booming because like Anglesey people will fly into nearest international airport and hire a car (and it’ll still be cheaper than flying direct).
There’s better money taxpayers money needs to be spent on in Wales, NHS, roads, schools & the like. Not 737s and A320s flying to Malaga with a Welsh dragon on its tail.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wales
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Well I've heard they are very happy with their Cardiff base and publicly mentioned they are looking at basing a 4th aircraft in 2019.
Brunel to Concorde
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Location: Virtute et Industria, et Sumorsaete Ealle
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airsouthwest
Welsh government loans to airport 'could breach rules' - BBC News
This BBC report of September 2015 gives a good idea of the relationship between the Welsh Government and Flybe. Look at para 7 in particular.
The arrangement seems to suit both Flybe and the Welsh Government which might explain why both are satisfied.
Welsh government loans to airport 'could breach rules' - BBC News
This BBC report of September 2015 gives a good idea of the relationship between the Welsh Government and Flybe. Look at para 7 in particular.
The arrangement seems to suit both Flybe and the Welsh Government which might explain why both are satisfied.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wales
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The Flybe base has given Wales though direct connections to cities and countries Wales has never had before which not only helps with economic connections but inbound tourism. It's given the airport the boost in passenger numbers that not only has led to jobs being created but investment into the airport itself. It's also led to Wales attracting Qatar Airways and the TUI expansion because of the confidence it's created. Which is all good for Wales as a country.
Brunel to Concorde
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How close it came to illegal state aid could only be decided by a EC/CMA enquiry. In the absence of one it must be presumed the WG provided satisfactory assurances that the aid was lawful.
On the subject of a national airline for Wales, a few years ago there was vague talk about intra-Wales routes in addition to the current PSO route. Unless the WG came up with a large amount of money to fund such a venture it isn't likely to be viable whichever airline operated it.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wales
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If the Welsh government had set up their own airline instead of striking a deal with Flybe then maybe not as they wouldn't have the connections or partnerships that they have and would be under a hell of a lot of pressure to launch long haul routes as well.
Join Date: Sep 2016
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The most recent 'Welsh' airline closed down because it over expanded itself going from Do228's to ATR42's, Wales wasn't even able to sustain a local scheduled service ATR42 operator and now some dreamer(s) imagine a 'Welsh' airline operating regular transatlantic's that no other UK operator has been bold enough to consider viable, but then they envisage operating to European cities also so now they're planning a mixed fleet of a long haul jet or few and some short range turboprops or pocket rockets.
Air Wales couldn't even make an ATR42 operation work but had they stuck with Do228's they might still be going now and what it might take is for another Do228 operator to take the place of Air Wales, to learn from their mistakes.
It has already been mentioned that 'Welsh' airlines have expanded their businesses outside of Wales, of course they have, with Wales only having one commercially viable airport what else should be expected?
Another airline to try close European city schedules from/to CWL was Manx Regional with Jetstreams back in the 90's, they failed miserably, I actually took a day trip to BRU with them one day, a few passengers on the outward with myself the only passenger on the return.
But base an airline in Wales, employ a workforce in Wales, take the government subsidies, but branch it out, there are niche routes begging to be served out there by aomething like a Do228 operator, the CWL/VLY/CWL route for one, back in the 90's Air Kilroe commenced a MAN/CWL/MAN route with a J31, people were laughing but the passenger loads were good, probably for connections in/out of MAN, the IOM ticket seller apparently made a successful route with IOM/GLO/IOM, IOM/BLK/IOM is another route currently being neglected, IOM could also do with a morning & evening puddle jumper service to/from BHD, Waterford needs such a size of aircraft operation, perhaps WAT/BHX/WAT, maybe a niche route or two to be had out of LDY and the list probably goes on.
Air Wales couldn't even make an ATR42 operation work but had they stuck with Do228's they might still be going now and what it might take is for another Do228 operator to take the place of Air Wales, to learn from their mistakes.
It has already been mentioned that 'Welsh' airlines have expanded their businesses outside of Wales, of course they have, with Wales only having one commercially viable airport what else should be expected?
Another airline to try close European city schedules from/to CWL was Manx Regional with Jetstreams back in the 90's, they failed miserably, I actually took a day trip to BRU with them one day, a few passengers on the outward with myself the only passenger on the return.
But base an airline in Wales, employ a workforce in Wales, take the government subsidies, but branch it out, there are niche routes begging to be served out there by aomething like a Do228 operator, the CWL/VLY/CWL route for one, back in the 90's Air Kilroe commenced a MAN/CWL/MAN route with a J31, people were laughing but the passenger loads were good, probably for connections in/out of MAN, the IOM ticket seller apparently made a successful route with IOM/GLO/IOM, IOM/BLK/IOM is another route currently being neglected, IOM could also do with a morning & evening puddle jumper service to/from BHD, Waterford needs such a size of aircraft operation, perhaps WAT/BHX/WAT, maybe a niche route or two to be had out of LDY and the list probably goes on.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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To what extent was it working as a Do228 service?
I remember it was originally based in Pembrey, then they moved to Swansea. Then they switched to ATR operation and added Cardiff to Swansea, then Swansea was closed. All this happened in 6 years and suggests a somewhat fluid business plan.
I think the real issue here is that there are effectively multiple airlines being discussed. One is an operation with Do228s or similar, serving some of the smaller airfields around Wales. Another is effectively a revival or the old Air Wales, linking Cardiff with relatively nearby destinations in Europe. The last is a more grandiose plan for long haul and longer European links from Cardiff.
The issue is that any start-up airline needs to concentrate on one of these only and can consider adding the other parts over a much longer period as it grows.
But it's hard to see where to start. The smallest operation is the least capita intensive and at least serves markets where nobody is likely to try to compete and kill the service, but it's undeniable that the most, possibly only, viable market is London where the costs of landing such a small aircraft are extortionate.
I remember it was originally based in Pembrey, then they moved to Swansea. Then they switched to ATR operation and added Cardiff to Swansea, then Swansea was closed. All this happened in 6 years and suggests a somewhat fluid business plan.
I think the real issue here is that there are effectively multiple airlines being discussed. One is an operation with Do228s or similar, serving some of the smaller airfields around Wales. Another is effectively a revival or the old Air Wales, linking Cardiff with relatively nearby destinations in Europe. The last is a more grandiose plan for long haul and longer European links from Cardiff.
The issue is that any start-up airline needs to concentrate on one of these only and can consider adding the other parts over a much longer period as it grows.
But it's hard to see where to start. The smallest operation is the least capita intensive and at least serves markets where nobody is likely to try to compete and kill the service, but it's undeniable that the most, possibly only, viable market is London where the costs of landing such a small aircraft are extortionate.
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But it's hard to see where to start. The smallest operation is the least capita intensive and at least serves markets where nobody is likely to try to compete and kill the service, but it's undeniable that the most, possibly only, viable market is London where the costs of landing such a small aircraft are extortionate
Join Date: Mar 2005
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But any service would need to survive largely on point to point travel. Is there enough demand even for Cardiff for that? I would actually have thought the second most viable destination may be Dublin, as it's usually one of the 2 or 3 most popular cities from UK airports, is a short hop and is separated by sea, so it doesn't have competing rail services; plus it's a good place for onward travel for those who want it.
Join Date: Apr 2013
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Both DUB, ORK & JER were the most popular routes for Air Wales, I think the other routes drained the money from the company, LPL, ABZ, PLH all had shocking loads and the schedule was a nightmare.
The ATR42 was a good choice for DUB, ORK & JER as they also used it for the odd charter flight too during quieter down times.
A fleet of 5 ATR was a big jump, had they just concentrated on the routes with demand and a smaller fleet who knows they may still be around today
The ATR42 was a good choice for DUB, ORK & JER as they also used it for the odd charter flight too during quieter down times.
A fleet of 5 ATR was a big jump, had they just concentrated on the routes with demand and a smaller fleet who knows they may still be around today
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Brunel to Concorde
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Air Wales operated some routes from CWL on behalf of bmibaby. Prestwick was one and I think Belfast Int, Cork and Jersey might have been others.
baby used its own aircraft on some of these routes initially before switching them to Air Wales to operate for them. Prestwick was certainly one. baby itself had originally flown CWL-GLA but then moved the Scottish end to PIK which Air Wales operated for them.
baby used its own aircraft on some of these routes initially before switching them to Air Wales to operate for them. Prestwick was certainly one. baby itself had originally flown CWL-GLA but then moved the Scottish end to PIK which Air Wales operated for them.
As one of the two people that wrote the original Air Wales business plan and found the finance to back it I can assure you it was no more fluid than any other business plan. A plan is a plan and any company will evolve based on that plan but rarely without the plan changing.
Harry Wayfarers is absolute right IMHO, had Air Wales stuck with the original Do228 until the load factors were higher and not insisted the fares had to be similar to low cost carriers the airline may well have still been in business.
Bigger isn't more profitable, I wanted to base the operation on Skybus with a whole different marketing strategy but was overruled.... so sadly I left!
I may have been right or I may have been wrong but the one thing about Air Wales is the owner was the most honourable gentleman you could ever wish to meet and the whole team a joy to work with.
Maybe another niche carrier could "work" as is the modern term but a national airline based on European and Transatlantic routes for me anyway is a non starter.
Harry Wayfarers is absolute right IMHO, had Air Wales stuck with the original Do228 until the load factors were higher and not insisted the fares had to be similar to low cost carriers the airline may well have still been in business.
Bigger isn't more profitable, I wanted to base the operation on Skybus with a whole different marketing strategy but was overruled.... so sadly I left!
I may have been right or I may have been wrong but the one thing about Air Wales is the owner was the most honourable gentleman you could ever wish to meet and the whole team a joy to work with.
Maybe another niche carrier could "work" as is the modern term but a national airline based on European and Transatlantic routes for me anyway is a non starter.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wales
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I believe that the Welsh government has the goal of getting transatlantic routes whether it'll happen is another question but guarenteed it won't be operated by a national airline for Wales.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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And it is all over ...
Welsh Government announced today that they are withdrawing funding for the Ynys Mon - Cardiff service with the loss of 7 jobs.
https://gov.wales/written-statement-...3MAZV9WSJQh7TA
https://gov.wales/written-statement-...3MAZV9WSJQh7TA