Monarch 4

[rog747]

Originally Posted by harriewillem

The general public including myself is to blame.. can you really make money on all in holidays of 600gbp Or 700eur... blame management blame The investor... But The real problem.. us The passengers want to pay peanuts...

very fair point BUT the I/tour and holiday charter market has been boom or bust since the days of British Eagle Channel Airways Court Line/Clarksons/Horizon and Laker/Lord Brothers/Arrowsmith

and in Germany we have lost LTU aero Lloyd and many others swallowed up by either of the Thomas Cook and TUI giants

the fine line of bums on seats, having a decent product, selling at a competitive price because Joe Public always wants a bargain and getting the right amount of income back to make even a squidgy amount of profit is walking a tight rope

throw in an Arab war/oil conflict or two then a $/£/e turmoil - add a bit of instability in a once popular tourist hot spot now becomes a terrorist and security hot spot and bang there goes your holiday company and airline down the drain
Oh and yes add in the giants of Ryan-air Easy-jet Norwegian and the other new lo-co kids on the block and where do you start to make money and offer a product nowadays that the punters want and where do you fly to when you have lost your core market to the likes of Arab Spring Isis and the $$ turmoil

[rotorwills]

Originally Posted by t1grm

Fair comment but that does raise the question already asked; couldn't the CAA have paid the administrators to use Monarch aircraft and crew to do this more cheaply?

Can no do. Administrators do not hold an AOC.

[Skybloke]

To all those above asking why Monarch couldn't do the repatriation please note that when an airline enters administration (done at 0400 as that was when all the a/c were on the deck) it then automatically loses its Air Operators Certificate and therefore its insurance etc would all be invalidated. It could not operate those flights even if it wanted to. All flights have to be cancelled. That's how we do it in the UK.

[rog747]

no surprise sadly

the CAA have been watching Monarch and their ability (or not) to be able to renew ts bond for the next year which was obvious to the CAA, and most likely the MON Directors right until the last minute they would not be able to.

trying for a last ditch attempt in past few weeks at a view to restructuring the airline hence all the wibble about a new ''long haul'' airline was just watching the last life boats being launched which failed to procure any investors

the vast repatriation plans are rather like the funeral arrangement's for the likes of the HM The Queen Mother -
its all planned well in advance for such a failure

[rog747]

totally wrong

the monarch repatriation is not paid out of your pockets nor any UK tax payer nor any funds misappropriated by the CAA's own money as suggested above = all nonsense

the costs are all met from the air travel reserve fund (a Bond) set up after the Clarksons Court line collapse in 1974 (it was called TOSG then)

that collapse was big almost 50000 repatriated in 1974 - this is more than twice that

any air ticket and ATOL booking is costed with an amount into that when tour operators and airlines place their bond with the CAA



the air travel reserve fund set up by and used by the CAA to repatriate pax from collapsed tour operators and airlines and usually they have lodged a £££ bond - used to be TOSG tour operator study group - the travel trust
now ATOL and called the ATT Fund

https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protectio...-Travel-Trust/


this is NOT funded by the UK tax payer - the ATT fund has a huge surplus

where do you get this nonsense from that its your hard earned money being spent - its not

it comes from this reserve fund and that in turn is funded by the airlines/holiday companies lodging a bond with the CAA which is money from sales of their tickets and holidays - a small % of each projected sale - its part of your protection when you buy an ATOL bonded tour or ticket

[SLFandProud]

As much as I admire your certainty, and as much as I doubt mine... ATOL covered about 5% of Monarch's business, I understand - being the "package holiday" type stuff. The other 95% has nothing to do with ATOL and won't be paid for by it.

That said, of course the CAA/Government won't pick up the whole tab - they'll claim from insurers and card companies. But it's certainly a relief for passengers that it's the CAA/HMG having that fight instead of them, I'm sure.

[racedo]

Originally Posted by toledoashley

Andrew Swaffield on BBC’s Today programme - confirmed that next year’s projected loss was over £100m. Decision was made on Saturday night.

The "Final" Decision was made on Sat nite but they would have had the info for a week or three and looking at permutations.

[BCAR Section L]

95% would seem a bit high

Does ATOL cover flight only bookings?

Yes, in some cases. If you book a flight with an ATOL holder (either direct or through a travel agent) and you get an ATOL Certificate as soon as you make payment, your booking is protected if the ATOL holder fails and the ATOL holder is also obliged to offer a refund should the airline that you are booked with fail financially.

[racedo]

Originally Posted by Lassie

No, not confronted with a balance sheet but a level of human compassion that people in that particular level of management do not possess. I personally know people affected by the job losses and I find it deceitful that the people at the coal face have been manipulated into believing that the balance sheet was good & that any announcements were likely to be favourable.....not catastrophic. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. As am I.

Friend worked with a non airline going down the tubes, he was on the board as FD and know he struggled to sleep properly for the 18 months that he tried to keep the business going. Company wasn't making enough money despite everything they tried.

Same with Monarch and idea that the people who live this for the last year in senior management don't care is laughable. They would have been doing everything they could to keep it going but losing £100 million has to be paid for and not having any cash is not having any cash,

[Basil]

Top opportunity for some lucky pax to experience the inside of RAF transports various - and put it down to CT & route experience

[racedo]

Originally Posted by IcePack

. Managers do not pay with their lives for their mistakes, but the buck still stops with them. .

As someone who has attended the funerals of a guy who died of a heart attack following collapse of the business he founded and run which ultimately foundered in the recession I beg to differ.

More harrowing is the guy who took his own life because he saw no way out as the company failed...................... try telling his wife and young kids that it wasn't important.

[toledoashley]

Originally Posted by racedo

The "Final" Decision was made on Sat nite but they would have had the info for a week or three and looking at permutations.

I was told three weeks ago that it was likely to be sold off in bits, so absolutely - even longer possibly since the CAA start the aircraft sourcing over a month ago.

[racedo]

Originally Posted by southside bobby

SOE...."Management team efforts"...Yes obviously & needs no pointing out, same with any business..But surely would you not agree the top person retains the overall direction & decision making over the "team" in important matters..
Why challenge us with GMAT & MBA`s as obviously didn`t work here..

Sometimes what ever you do as management is not going to work when external circumstances over which you have zero control destroy part of your business.

Terrorist attacks in Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey meant whatever plans you have are gone and you have to try and compensate.

Anybody who think Management can magic up solutions quickly rather than spending time reacting to save a business has never had to make decisions.

[southside bobby]

Skipness One Echo...Regarding management & your defence of a certain individual within MON would you care to give your thoughts on details of "alleged" manoeuvres being carried now in the Independent please?..
However if you feel this may be too litigious for comment could you at least inform us from which pages of the MBA study textbooks the "alleged" manoeuvres (may) be taught...
You have raised expectation now...Thanks in advance...

[southside bobby]

Racedo.......The key word I feel in your reply is "time"...how much time would it be fair to spend to address problems some of which in the v harsh world & in bad dreams be anticipated,but certainly game planned on a wet afternoon..
This is taught I would feel in management school as would such a thing as business damage control,however harsh the answer or outcome.
Are you seriously considering a £100mill + projected loss was only noticed this week?..

[IcePack]

Racedo I was referring to those managers & those defending them, who DO NOT accept that the "buck" stops with them.

[runway30]

Originally Posted by racedo

Sometimes what ever you do as management is not going to work when external circumstances over which you have zero control destroy part of your business.

Terrorist attacks in Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey meant whatever plans you have are gone and you have to try and compensate.

Anybody who think Management can magic up solutions quickly rather than spending time reacting to save a business has never had to make decisions.

The businesses I have been involved with have reviewed risk on a regular basis so we know what could be a threat to the business, how we are going to mitigate that risk and how we are going to react. If it all comes as a surprise then you are not doing your job. The external circumstances are the same for everybody, I don't see any other airline CEO wondering around with his head in his hands going woe is me, where has my business gone?

[theWings]

The true cost of air travel

Originally Posted by t1grm

BBC says repatriation will cost £60 mil for 110,000 pax. That's an average of £545 per pax. Good job the CAA are not running an airline. They would go under before Monarch!

I'd actually argue the exact opposite case!

[factanonverba]

Almost ironic is that one of their old A330's is involved in the "air-bridge".

[Below the glide]

Originally Posted by Arrowhead

CX is no direct entry Captain, and 10+ years to command for FOs (longer for SOs)

HKA better, but also suffers from very expensive cost of living in HK (you will end up in a tiny flat for £3000/month rent)

Air Macau pays similar to HKA (approx double the UK after tax), is cheaper to live, and *urgently* needs DECs, as well as experienced FOs for rapid command. 9/3 and 5/2 commuting patterns available.

In fact HKA are offering DEC and FO rated or not, after the training and check to line, a 20/10 option.

HKG ain’t that bad a place at all.

I’ve heard they’ll be over at LGW on the 17 Oct for the Flight Crew Festures.