Air Berlin : fleet cut in half + layoffs
Pegase Driver
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,684
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone say whether Air Berlin is a low cost carrier?
but their IT intra European flights are very basic low cost service.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really? We're blaming Brexit for this? I'd say the lack of direction and focus, complex fleet structures, trying to everything: a network carrier, a full service airline, short haul, long haul, regional, low cost. It had a ghastly cost base and was rapidly coming irrelevant. For many years it has been problematic. Brexit has been a recent phenomena - nobody expected it to happen so until the referendum dare had zero impact. Now that it's happened it will have the most minuscule impact on Air Berlin that it's not worth even mentioning.
I missed my bus this morning. Damned Brexit!
I missed my bus this morning. Damned Brexit!
Does anyone have any ideas about the regulatory aspects of this? To the casual observer it seems there might be issues at several levels. A de facto takeover of Air Berlin flights and slots at all german airports outside of Berlin and Dusseldorf surely raises some question about monopoly and competition. Various media reports in Germany suggest fares will increase as a result, which certainly points in this direction. The remaining airline is all the more aligned with a non european part owner, which leads back to problems with whether it is actually controlled from outside the EU. Last but not least given the well reported CAA scrutiny of Monarch finances and alleged ultimatums, does Air Berlin's more than difficult financial situation lead to the authorities taking similar action? On a positive note the much overdue decisive changes (if they are allowed) give at least some hope for the remaining employees...interesting times indeed!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: at the edge of the alps
Posts: 447
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Germany is currently investigating for fraud regarding RyanAir pilots. But at the end Ryanair pilots will have to decide whether they want to change their system. If they chose to pay fines rather than indicting Ryanair for setting up this system, they (and all of us) will have to endure the effects.
As for AB, hopefully most pilot jobs will be saved, although it seems strange for LH to wet lease from AB, thus "feeding" AB as a company. Maybe have something to do with market dominance.
What will happen in six years when the wet lease runs out?
As for AB, hopefully most pilot jobs will be saved, although it seems strange for LH to wet lease from AB, thus "feeding" AB as a company. Maybe have something to do with market dominance.
What will happen in six years when the wet lease runs out?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Until we know exactly what Air Berlin and Lufthansa/Eurowings intend to do it is difficult to assess but I would expect the key criteria to be
1) If the slots have been allocated to Air Berlin and are leased to Eurowings along with the aircraft then it could be seen as a marketing agreement along the lines of "Eurowings by Air Berlin" rather like Hop took on a number of local French carriers operations.
2) If however, the slots are definitively transfered to Eurowings by some deal and are at slot restricted times and when Eurowings already has a near-dominant position on arrivals and departures at such times then Lufthansa could be requested to release some slots at such times to allow another airline to compete on critical routes. Note that domination at an airport is not the most critical factor but rather specific routes from the airport. However, even then, if you look at the French market, despite the attempts of Air France to contain Easyjet operations, they are now all over France and apparently quite successful, so it is debateable whether not having say peak-hour slots actually prevents an LCC from providing an adequate low price offer (not having any at all is different),
As far as I am aware, the authorities are not obliged to look at the longer term (e.g. is this just an marketing agreement and not a direct transfer of Air Berlin operations to Eurowings) if that is not stated, and some words used could suggest that it is just that. I suggest the test is whether the Air Berlin brand will completely disappear on the operations of the 40 wet-lease aircraft.
1) If the slots have been allocated to Air Berlin and are leased to Eurowings along with the aircraft then it could be seen as a marketing agreement along the lines of "Eurowings by Air Berlin" rather like Hop took on a number of local French carriers operations.
2) If however, the slots are definitively transfered to Eurowings by some deal and are at slot restricted times and when Eurowings already has a near-dominant position on arrivals and departures at such times then Lufthansa could be requested to release some slots at such times to allow another airline to compete on critical routes. Note that domination at an airport is not the most critical factor but rather specific routes from the airport. However, even then, if you look at the French market, despite the attempts of Air France to contain Easyjet operations, they are now all over France and apparently quite successful, so it is debateable whether not having say peak-hour slots actually prevents an LCC from providing an adequate low price offer (not having any at all is different),
As far as I am aware, the authorities are not obliged to look at the longer term (e.g. is this just an marketing agreement and not a direct transfer of Air Berlin operations to Eurowings) if that is not stated, and some words used could suggest that it is just that. I suggest the test is whether the Air Berlin brand will completely disappear on the operations of the 40 wet-lease aircraft.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to this (In german only, sorry):
aero.de - Luftfahrt-Nachrichten und -Community
AB won´t give away their slots.
Up to 40 a/c to DLH or rather Eurowings up to 35 to TUIFLY.
aero.de - Luftfahrt-Nachrichten und -Community
AB won´t give away their slots.
Up to 40 a/c to DLH or rather Eurowings up to 35 to TUIFLY.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With 40 to EWG and 35 to TUI, that leaves them with very few. You have to also take into account that some of the present BER fleet comprises of a/c leased from other companies, such as TUI for instance.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Current plan is to operate 38 aircraft for Eurowings/Austrian as wet least, plus two dry leases. Another 75 aircraft will be operated by the new airberlin, with further growth on the longhaul sector (8 additional A330 in the next two years). Niki and Belair will be sold off into a joint venture with TUI and/or Condor. Which leaves airberlin actually with a larger fleet than before and they have to hire both cabin and flight deck crew. Around 1200 employees on the ground have to leave the company though. Roughly half in administration and maintenance.
I am glad it all sounds so positive for the crew Denti. You here all this stuff about bad banks etc. and given the less than stellar financial performance over the last few years you wonder how it is all going to work out. If Pichler can pull it off it will be a fantastic job given the hole his predecessors dug, the next few weeks will no doubt be critical.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: EDDM
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, there seems to be a bad bank in the works. Put the unwanted subsidiary companies Belair, Niki and the unwanted 14 wet leased planes from TUI into a different company, let it fly for a summer and then go bankrupt, if you can transfer some of your debt into that, even better.
There is a certain panic in Germany that now with the Brexit on the horizon lowcost giants from the UK might step expand in central Europe instead. So everybody tries to brace for that moment, LH, AB and TUI. Ryanair has quietly moved many flights and business to Germany's big airports and aims for business travellers now, being ready to grow there.
Easyjet ?
Think MO'L's comment on being called British will only get one response ""
The Handelsblatt article this morning was not very positive. This was not apparently Pichler's idea, but very much guided from elsewhere according to their sources. They also quoted the boss of Eurowings as saying the deal was not yet signed for the wet lease. There was some scepticism too about yields across the atlantic where Air Berlin is supposed to earn the money back. The only real plus is Lufthansa's very real interest in keeping Ryanair and Easyjet out as far as possible. But if the regulator were to insist on slot transfers?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The AB CEO yesterday told the staff repeatedly that the deal was signed on wednestay night at 21:33. So i guess it is signed, however, with Lufthansa, not Eurowings. And of course pending approval of the boards and relevant authorities. It is a marginal deal in my opinion, 1.2 billion € over six years for 37 to 38 wet leases and 2 or 3 dry leases is not a real good deal at all.
The slot situation will be interesting, as airberlin is apparently only transferring aircraft (and crew) to Lufthansa, but not slots, they will remain with airberlin.
The slot situation will be interesting, as airberlin is apparently only transferring aircraft (and crew) to Lufthansa, but not slots, they will remain with airberlin.
They signed a LOI, not a contract, Denti. The regulator however is not a factor, as no slots are to be transferred. All remain with Air Berlin.
One of the most critical points will be how the TUI situation is dealt with. They remained rather vague on this one, and it is one of the biggest problems of AB currently.
One of the most critical points will be how the TUI situation is dealt with. They remained rather vague on this one, and it is one of the biggest problems of AB currently.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I'll say it again....For the umpteenth time....
Just how big does LH Group have to be before someone in Brussels begins to notice the near-monopoly they have on flights in and between Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Belgium.
It isn't even funny anymore that Brussels lets them get away with it.
Just how big does LH Group have to be before someone in Brussels begins to notice the near-monopoly they have on flights in and between Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Belgium.
It isn't even funny anymore that Brussels lets them get away with it.
Aviation is always a bit of a special case. But if a concrete manufacturer agreed to produce for a competitor and the product was all then sold by the competitor then the competition authorities would certainly take a look. In practical terms whoever the slots belong to and are operated by, the result of the wetlease will be a reduction in competition.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Russia
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Members of the oneworldŽ global aviation allianceŽ
Air Berlin
S7 (Sibir) airlines
Suprised?
Both of them synonymous with unreliability, poor service and destruction of their brand loyalty.
(customer base).
B A is part of the same alliance, but from what I saw, embarrassed to be connected with such outfits.
Air Berlin
S7 (Sibir) airlines
Suprised?
Both of them synonymous with unreliability, poor service and destruction of their brand loyalty.
(customer base).
B A is part of the same alliance, but from what I saw, embarrassed to be connected with such outfits.