Flight delay reason
Thread Starter
Flight delay reason
Over the last months, whenever a flight is delayed the reason given by flight deck crew is 'due to an earlier air traffic control restriction...'
As a passenger I have little or no ability to counter this line. Furthermore I am aware ATC can't defend themselves to a flight deck PA announcement in an aircraft.
I am aware the much loved 'due to operational reasons' is often code for either 'we messed up but don't want to admit it' or 'you are not sufficiently profitable as passengers so we have decided to make you more profitable by some other means'.
Is blaming ATC restrictions the new version of operational reasons (with an EU261 compensation-immune escape route), or is there usually something credible behind it which genuinely wasn't an airline's fault ?
As a passenger I have little or no ability to counter this line. Furthermore I am aware ATC can't defend themselves to a flight deck PA announcement in an aircraft.
I am aware the much loved 'due to operational reasons' is often code for either 'we messed up but don't want to admit it' or 'you are not sufficiently profitable as passengers so we have decided to make you more profitable by some other means'.
Is blaming ATC restrictions the new version of operational reasons (with an EU261 compensation-immune escape route), or is there usually something credible behind it which genuinely wasn't an airline's fault ?
At a busy airport, and if crossing busy airspace, if a flight misses their departure slot by more than 10 mins, they may have to wait for a new one. It's their fault for missing it, but if they're say 15 mins late for push back and get held subsequently waiting for a new slot, they may try blame ATC
dj6 it's not a new excuse. A BA crew used it at Aberdeen back in the late 70s to explain why they were late. Unfortunately for them the head of CAA/NATS was onboard &, when he got back to Heathrow, investigated the claim. He found it was nonsense, & the Captain of the flight was disciplined. Or, so the story went.
No, it's not new - it's as old as the hills.
No, it's not new - it's as old as the hills.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: At the bar
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having previously worked in ground handling, "operational reasons" is cited for a number of reasons. Yes, sometimes it's due to a lack of crew (i.e. we messed up and don't want to admit it) but sometimes it's due to a late inbound aircraft, or rather than telling everyone about a technical fault which could potentially cause nervousness I always used to say operational reasons whilst the engineers were investigating. Once the issue was confirmed I'd then refer to it as a technical fault because we'd often have a bit more information to back it up.
Similarly when an aircraft is ready to depart, the dispatcher and flight deck will agree reasons for the delay and assign a delay code. Both parties must agree on the delay code, so if the captain were to say one reason to the passengers, the official reason, and therefore the reason that would declared in the event of an EU261 claim, would be the truth.
Similarly when an aircraft is ready to depart, the dispatcher and flight deck will agree reasons for the delay and assign a delay code. Both parties must agree on the delay code, so if the captain were to say one reason to the passengers, the official reason, and therefore the reason that would declared in the event of an EU261 claim, would be the truth.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a little unfair to said its "their fault" that a slot was missed. There are a huge amount of variables, stakeholders and parts of the supply chain that go in to getting the craft back in the sky. It only takes one to be delayed and its game over for the original slot. This can also include weather, vectoring, runway changes, single runway ops, extended taxi in, slow boarding, missing pax, missing bags, too many bags, unable to fuel due to a CB in the vicinity, an aircraft pushing back behind you and blocking in, a so called 'ramp check' by the local incompetent Authority. When the jet is ready and there is not a slot available then it really is air traffic control restrictions causing the problems. I won't name any country (its not the UK) but priority will always be given to their local airlines too so us jolly foreigners are at the back of the queue.
Now we have almost weekly strikes by some countries. When they are not striking they are working to rule and flows must be reduced. Even if you are ready early then you will often have a slot given to you regardless.
Some places are now busier than ever. Barcelona had arrival restrictions yesterday due to the wind as they could not operate parallel runways for a few hours. PMI is busy and being #14 for arrival and #12 for departure is standard. PMI ground cannot cope and you cannot get your ready message. I observed a Helvetic crew try to call ready. They could not get a word in and when they could they were told they were too late and that they had missed their slot whereas in fact they were ready on time just the ground controller either ignored or did not hear their request. Thankfully the crew stood their ground and away they went.
Its very easy to take a simplistic view (particularly when people are looking forward to their EU261 money) but in reality the operation is vastly more complex than passengers could ever imagine.
Now we have almost weekly strikes by some countries. When they are not striking they are working to rule and flows must be reduced. Even if you are ready early then you will often have a slot given to you regardless.
Some places are now busier than ever. Barcelona had arrival restrictions yesterday due to the wind as they could not operate parallel runways for a few hours. PMI is busy and being #14 for arrival and #12 for departure is standard. PMI ground cannot cope and you cannot get your ready message. I observed a Helvetic crew try to call ready. They could not get a word in and when they could they were told they were too late and that they had missed their slot whereas in fact they were ready on time just the ground controller either ignored or did not hear their request. Thankfully the crew stood their ground and away they went.
Its very easy to take a simplistic view (particularly when people are looking forward to their EU261 money) but in reality the operation is vastly more complex than passengers could ever imagine.
That just about encapsulates everything, from the operator's point of view, meatballs. As you say, the whole thing is very complicated. Not that I would like to suggest that certain agencies are easy targets !
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My favourite one is the apology for the delay "due to the late arrival of the incoming aircraft". Yes, fine. But why was the incoming late then? 
Just one of many yukspeak announcements we have to endure!
Just one of many yukspeak announcements we have to endure!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Horsham, England, UK. ---o--O--o---
Posts: 1,185
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Hotel Tango
Do you really expect the airline or indeed their ground handlers to break-down all the accumulated sector delays before the sector you happen to be flying on and explain all this in great detail!
For a start, we just don't have the time or often the information anyway. All we often know is that the aircraft is late, so that is what you will be told. As explained above. It can be much more complex than many outside the industry realise.
Even if you do depart a little late, often you may still arrive on time; due to ATC sometimes allowing short cuts. Also the Captain can quite often add some detail after you board, especially if they have operated some or all of the previous sectors.
Do you really expect the airline or indeed their ground handlers to break-down all the accumulated sector delays before the sector you happen to be flying on and explain all this in great detail!
For a start, we just don't have the time or often the information anyway. All we often know is that the aircraft is late, so that is what you will be told. As explained above. It can be much more complex than many outside the industry realise.
Even if you do depart a little late, often you may still arrive on time; due to ATC sometimes allowing short cuts. Also the Captain can quite often add some detail after you board, especially if they have operated some or all of the previous sectors.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 822
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A colleague of mine flew from LTN recently pushed back on time and was still on the ground an hour later waiting to takeoff. GMC and ATC slot issues - and it's becoming more frequent at LTN. So yes ATC issues may well be a problem as our skies get busier....and the French continue to strike whenever they feel like it.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In fairness I can only attribute one day of disruption due to UK infrastructure and that was because of Scottish having some phased upgrade.
Almost all restrictions are due to issues on the mainland. Everything in the UK is fairly logical. Check out all of the Madrid or Barcelona departures and the ground set up at these locations and you can see just his bad things can get (MAD must have 40+ SIDS). All in order to protect jobs in their bloated public sectors.
I don't operate from the south east so maybe I'm shielded from the worst of it. But UK aviation does very well without government subsidisation.
Look to the mainland and a lot of it is publically owned and things are no better at all.
Some days flying through a bust London sector I'm frankly AMAZED at what an amazing job they do. They do an amazing job and I'm sure we are truely thankful of their skill and the service they provide. Go to the mainland and things quickly fall apart very quickly despite them earning a hell of a lot more than ours. And let's not get started on their vectoring! Privitisation is not the cause of the issues. Bloated publically owned or heavily influenced services are.
With London or Scottish there's no ignoring calls, there no thirty second delay and then "uh, station calling.....", requests are not met with " uh, make that with the next sector". Whenever a request is denied by London its because of the mainland restrictions on the mainland.
NATS are still renowned for their operational excellence which is why they're seen as the gold standard a provide some services abroad.
I know its a la mode amongst the luvvies to talk Britain down. But lets put things into perspective.
Almost all restrictions are due to issues on the mainland. Everything in the UK is fairly logical. Check out all of the Madrid or Barcelona departures and the ground set up at these locations and you can see just his bad things can get (MAD must have 40+ SIDS). All in order to protect jobs in their bloated public sectors.
I don't operate from the south east so maybe I'm shielded from the worst of it. But UK aviation does very well without government subsidisation.
Look to the mainland and a lot of it is publically owned and things are no better at all.
Some days flying through a bust London sector I'm frankly AMAZED at what an amazing job they do. They do an amazing job and I'm sure we are truely thankful of their skill and the service they provide. Go to the mainland and things quickly fall apart very quickly despite them earning a hell of a lot more than ours. And let's not get started on their vectoring! Privitisation is not the cause of the issues. Bloated publically owned or heavily influenced services are.
With London or Scottish there's no ignoring calls, there no thirty second delay and then "uh, station calling.....", requests are not met with " uh, make that with the next sector". Whenever a request is denied by London its because of the mainland restrictions on the mainland.
NATS are still renowned for their operational excellence which is why they're seen as the gold standard a provide some services abroad.
I know its a la mode amongst the luvvies to talk Britain down. But lets put things into perspective.
Last edited by HeartyMeatballs; 14th Jul 2016 at 20:15.
Heartymeatballs, you're quite right. That should have read "if it's their fault" and by "their" I meant the airline in general, not the crews specifically. Apologies for any offense caused.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HT Do you really expect the airline or indeed their ground handlers to break-down all the accumulated sector delays before the sector you happen to be flying on and explain all this in great detail!
Mate of mine was on an EZY A319 LTN-GLA last night, 13 July, the aircraft pushed at around 19:00 but held remote due to "ATC restrictions in Scotland".
Really?
Aircraft departed at about 19:50.
Really?
Aircraft departed at about 19:50.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of the worst that I keep unfortunately encountering is PFO especially on a Wednesday or Sunday night the airport and ground agents just can't cope with passenger numbers.
Frequently ex UK you get your slots changed and delayed on this route as they know they have earlier delays, only last week it was so busy we were kept in a hold over Akrotiri air base for 20 mins as no spare stands to park on.
Once on the ground it's just as chaotic you never know if you are going to have a standard turnaround or a 2hour wait. sometimes they will bus one load of pax out to the aircraft then use the bus for inbound flights so taking 1 hour to board and am told when this happens people then wander off from the gate.
Frequently ex UK you get your slots changed and delayed on this route as they know they have earlier delays, only last week it was so busy we were kept in a hold over Akrotiri air base for 20 mins as no spare stands to park on.
Once on the ground it's just as chaotic you never know if you are going to have a standard turnaround or a 2hour wait. sometimes they will bus one load of pax out to the aircraft then use the bus for inbound flights so taking 1 hour to board and am told when this happens people then wander off from the gate.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing that is for sure, when flights get delayed, usually the company response is poor to non existent. Ok they do the minimum when required by law by very little else. You are left to your own devices and frustrations. Years ago I was returning from St Malo to Portsmouth by Brittany Ferries and we were delayed due to combination of tech fault and low water level.In no time flat every car waiting to board was given a letter of apology, full explanation an expected arrival time in the UK and an offer of a free sit down meal in the Al a Carte restaurant on the Bretagne. It also came with a free glass of decent wine as well..Now I`m not saying the Airlines can go to that extent, but they certainly can up their game.
Customer service, for a lot of them, exists in name only from experience sadly
Customer service, for a lot of them, exists in name only from experience sadly
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Horsham, England, UK. ---o--O--o---
Posts: 1,185
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Welcome to low cost Aviation!
You get what you pay for in Life..
Flying used to be more expensive and could afford to offer good customer service and was staffed accordingly.
You get what you pay for in Life..
Flying used to be more expensive and could afford to offer good customer service and was staffed accordingly.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah low cost, well those days have actually vanished, only the illusion remains.Your wallet tells you otherwise. The ferries are about the same price but still provide a better service, so you do get what you pay for, only some do it much better