Brexit and the 5th?
Plumbum Pendular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Avionics Bay
Age: 55
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brexit and the 5th?
What would the situation be for the likes of easyJet and Ryan Air if Brexit were to happen bearing in mind the 5th Freedom as defined by the Chicago Convention?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe you mean cabotage. Fifth freedom is for picking up/dropping off passengers along a route which starts or ends in the resident country. Cabotage is internal services in a country.
In Brexit, assuming no-one negotiates cabotage rights, Ryanair, as a non-UK airline, would not be able to do domestic UK services, but as a EU airline would be able to do any EU-UK service, i believe. Easyjet, as a UK airline, would be able to do internal UK and UK-EU services, but not EU-EU services.
Assuming neither company sets up specific subsidiaries to get around the specific limitations. Which i guess would be quite likely in fact.
In Brexit, assuming no-one negotiates cabotage rights, Ryanair, as a non-UK airline, would not be able to do domestic UK services, but as a EU airline would be able to do any EU-UK service, i believe. Easyjet, as a UK airline, would be able to do internal UK and UK-EU services, but not EU-EU services.
Assuming neither company sets up specific subsidiaries to get around the specific limitations. Which i guess would be quite likely in fact.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Assuming they negotiate bilaterals as to WHERE they fly. Not everyone allows a foreign airline to serve any old random destination in their country. It would be a truly "international" flight, so there'd likely be visa/customs/immigration facility issues. In addition to whatever political fallout would have people in a non cooperative mode.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nothing will happen. The various governments will agree on keeping the existing arrangements as otherwise it will be too complicated and too many companies will lose out, with their staff suffering too; there is too much tax revenue involved between corporation and staff income taxes to chance individual new negotiations with all the other issues to be dealt with.
Likewise, I'm sure there will be agreement to ensure existing staff at all EU and UK operators are given rights to stay and work in the country they are presently base in as long as they are employed by that company, though those rights would possibly be lost if they leave the company.
Likewise, I'm sure there will be agreement to ensure existing staff at all EU and UK operators are given rights to stay and work in the country they are presently base in as long as they are employed by that company, though those rights would possibly be lost if they leave the company.
Don't Easyjet already have a Swiss subsidiary for similar reasons?
As for Ryanair, various agreements on trade, business etc between Ireland and the UK pre date the EEC or EU. One has never needed a passport to travel between the 2 countries, nor has there evere been full border checkpoints between The Republic and Northern Ireland. This may change if the UK leaves the EU however, as one of the main reasons to leave is more control of immigration. If the UK leaves the EU then EU citizens can travel freely to Ireland and hop across the border. Introducing a full border would give Republican extremists an excuse to start bombing again sadly.
As for Ryanair, various agreements on trade, business etc between Ireland and the UK pre date the EEC or EU. One has never needed a passport to travel between the 2 countries, nor has there evere been full border checkpoints between The Republic and Northern Ireland. This may change if the UK leaves the EU however, as one of the main reasons to leave is more control of immigration. If the UK leaves the EU then EU citizens can travel freely to Ireland and hop across the border. Introducing a full border would give Republican extremists an excuse to start bombing again sadly.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Brexit" could allow the UK to have a temporary answer to the South East Airport capacity problem. The UK could renegotiate air services agreements and dictate that Airlines fly to Gatwick or Stansted rather than Heathrow.
A lot of the Air Services Agreements would have to be re-negotiated as a lot a presently EU agreements, for example EU-US. This would have to become a UK -US agreement and so on.
The UK could then re-introduce traffic distribution rules to distribute traffic around the London airports. The UK government cannot do this now as it would fall fowl of the EU Open Skies policy and would lead to several court cases with various Airlines.
A lot of the Air Services Agreements would have to be re-negotiated as a lot a presently EU agreements, for example EU-US. This would have to become a UK -US agreement and so on.
The UK could then re-introduce traffic distribution rules to distribute traffic around the London airports. The UK government cannot do this now as it would fall fowl of the EU Open Skies policy and would lead to several court cases with various Airlines.
Last edited by Ametyst1; 29th Mar 2016 at 02:07.
The UK could renegotiate air services agreements and dictate that Airlines fly to Gatwick or Stansted rather than Heathrow.
Governments getting involved (interfering) in what should be airline business decisions rarely turns out well.
The current supply versus demand for LHR slots already ensures that new airlines or extra frequencies have to go to other airports - unless the airline concerned has a bottomless pit of money to buy the slots it wants at LHR from another airline (usually its an airline going through hard times and selling off the family silver !). Hardly fair on the smaller guys - but that's the way it is in the absence of LHR R3.
The UK will, on Brexit, need to be an open outward-looking trading nation. As such, the current open skies arrangements will be retained. I agree that the greatest impact, in due course, will be on WZZ whose market will shrink as the right to settle by EU citizens will cease.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: here
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barnstable - WZZ will just cut the number of flights from CE Europe to the UK if they have to. They have no operating bases in the UK to the best of my knowledge, so the planes will be put on to different/new destinations (like Dublin, Cork, Shannon).
If they do cut UK routes then it's more likely any impact will be felt at the smaller UK airports it serves far more than at the airline.
If they do cut UK routes then it's more likely any impact will be felt at the smaller UK airports it serves far more than at the airline.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London, UK & Europe
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wizz will not be hit that hard as just look at Norway and Switzerland, they have to allow movement of people to be part of the single market. Anybody who thinks the UK will be any different are mistaken. There is the unlikely case where the UK won't sign up.
Not so such FR domestics would be impacted and they are also a UK registered company so Im sure they could also pick up AOC quickly.
The UK will no longer exist soon after if England vote to leave!
Not so such FR domestics would be impacted and they are also a UK registered company so Im sure they could also pick up AOC quickly.
The UK will no longer exist soon after if England vote to leave!
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
anyone who says "things will continue as usual " is wrong
if we leave then NEW argreements have to put in place - the old ones are based on the fact we're in the EU and apply to all countries.
When we're out any new agreement will have to be ratified by ALL those still in - and I can see a few people holding a teensy-weensy grudge against the UK for putting them through this ridiculous fandango
Plus the likes of Air France & Alitalia will be looking to knock back every UK LCO........
if we leave then NEW argreements have to put in place - the old ones are based on the fact we're in the EU and apply to all countries.
When we're out any new agreement will have to be ratified by ALL those still in - and I can see a few people holding a teensy-weensy grudge against the UK for putting them through this ridiculous fandango
Plus the likes of Air France & Alitalia will be looking to knock back every UK LCO........
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The whole idea of the various leave campaigns, rightly or wrongly, is that should they be successful in getting the UK to exit the EU then they will not allow free movement of EU citizens.
The whole point of this referendum is that the anti-EU brigade want to stop the Poles, Slovaks, Latvians, Romanians et al from having free movement to travel, work or reside in the UK.
The whole point of this referendum is that the anti-EU brigade want to stop the Poles, Slovaks, Latvians, Romanians et al from having free movement to travel, work or reside in the UK.
The whole point of this referendum is that the anti-EU brigade want to stop the Poles, Slovaks, Latvians, Romanians et al from having free movement to travel, work or reside in the UK.
On Easter Saturday Poles have items which they will eat on Easter Sunday blessed in church, we have adopted this tradition as have quite a few friends in the church we go to. Asking how Brexit could affect them in stopping future Polish migrants one laughed and said his employer pays above Min Wage and has 20 vacancies he cannot fill since New Year. 50% of staff are Eastern European.
Asked if couldn't come to UK where could relatives go and Germany was easy option but added France and Spain as well.
No doubt UK with 50% no EU immigration will just go to its old Empire countrys like India etc
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Southampton
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Logohu
In 1980s BA only moved there Iberian peninsula routes from LHR to LGW none of there Canadian routes moved, the government at the time wanted IBERIA, TAP and Air Canada to move there entire ops to LHR but they declined to do so that's why only BA did, because of the fact that Air Canada refused to move BA decided that it was in their interest to keep their Canadian routes at LHR.
In 1980s BA only moved there Iberian peninsula routes from LHR to LGW none of there Canadian routes moved, the government at the time wanted IBERIA, TAP and Air Canada to move there entire ops to LHR but they declined to do so that's why only BA did, because of the fact that Air Canada refused to move BA decided that it was in their interest to keep their Canadian routes at LHR.