Viability of Gibraltarian National Airline?
Royal Air Maroc are due to start services from GIB to Tangier (which just for the record is TNG - TGR is in Algeria) in April with an ATR. It remains to be seen how long it lasts.
They tried a GIB-CAS route many years ago; I did travel on it a couple of times, but there were never many pax on it and it didn't last long.
They tried a GIB-CAS route many years ago; I did travel on it a couple of times, but there were never many pax on it and it didn't last long.
Barry - do you mean RAM tried GIB-CMN or did you mean GIB-CAS ?
If you really did mean GIB-CAS then perhaps sufficient years have passed that a route to Casablanca could be tried again ?
If you really did mean GIB-CAS then perhaps sufficient years have passed that a route to Casablanca could be tried again ?
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The dreaded Vanguard, I recall many miserable flights on the Vickers Vibrator. The best thing they ever did with that was convert it to the Merchantman, as a freighter it was excellent, fast and with good capacity and range.
The Viscount on the other hand, what a beautiful, quiet, smooth aeroplane, with those wonderful big windows. I remember serenely cruising over Rhodesia, about 300 mph, about 15,000 feet, in those.
The Viscount on the other hand, what a beautiful, quiet, smooth aeroplane, with those wonderful big windows. I remember serenely cruising over Rhodesia, about 300 mph, about 15,000 feet, in those.
David:
'twas still CAS at the time - early 90s. I was doing a 'Casablanca theme' trip!
(For those who haven't a clue what we're talking about, CAS was the old airport at Anfa, which was the setting for the film. As with all good old airports/airfields, it is now being built upon. CMN is the much newer airport, Mohammed V).
'twas still CAS at the time - early 90s. I was doing a 'Casablanca theme' trip!
(For those who haven't a clue what we're talking about, CAS was the old airport at Anfa, which was the setting for the film. As with all good old airports/airfields, it is now being built upon. CMN is the much newer airport, Mohammed V).
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Thank you very much for all of your insight, I'd like to see more developments in routes to Gibraltar, obviously Britain is always going to be the biggest market out of there. If Spain pack it in an Air Nostrum CRJ/ATR to Madrid possibly 8/9 times per week could work, double dailies on peak days like Monday and Friday, no flights on Saturday. How were loads on GIB-BCN when Andalus operated it with the ERJ's? That would be another route I'd have thought was possible but - I don't know what loads were like.
Jet2? They seem like someone that could start maybe 2 weekly flights from Leeds and hopefully down the line Newcastle, maybe take on MON at MAN.
Dublin, would FR get a reasonably filled 738 out of GIB to DUB? Or would this be a route better left to Aer Lingus to give a go?
Scotland, one day, I think either EDI or GLA could happen with LS or EZY, I'm quite surprised (well... Not really) at the concentration of routes from the south of the UK compared to the north.
Other EU, whatever happened to the Air Malta flights? Could there be any interest from anywhere else in Europe? KL to AMS? No idea... I think GIB is pretty limited to UK/Ireland inbound traffic.
I wish RAM the best of luck, it's a route I'd like to try. Surprised they don't offer it CMN-TNG-GIB-TNG-CMN/CMN-GIB-TNG-GIB-CMN
Jet2? They seem like someone that could start maybe 2 weekly flights from Leeds and hopefully down the line Newcastle, maybe take on MON at MAN.
Dublin, would FR get a reasonably filled 738 out of GIB to DUB? Or would this be a route better left to Aer Lingus to give a go?
Scotland, one day, I think either EDI or GLA could happen with LS or EZY, I'm quite surprised (well... Not really) at the concentration of routes from the south of the UK compared to the north.
Other EU, whatever happened to the Air Malta flights? Could there be any interest from anywhere else in Europe? KL to AMS? No idea... I think GIB is pretty limited to UK/Ireland inbound traffic.
I wish RAM the best of luck, it's a route I'd like to try. Surprised they don't offer it CMN-TNG-GIB-TNG-CMN/CMN-GIB-TNG-GIB-CMN
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Dublin, would FR get a reasonably filled 738 out of GIB to DUB? Or would this be a route better left to Aer Lingus to give a go?
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lol...I have actually seen RAF movers loading Monarch flights in the past, just to get them away...Gibair couldnt run a bath 
EK77....Just after the signing of the Cordoba agreement Iberia started a 319 service from Madrid..It sadly didnt pay and they pulled off the route (although there were politics at play as well)..Then Andalus started their route with the ERJ`s but again, insufficent business and they ceased the route, owing the Gib Government a lot of money apparantly.
FR 738`s cannot operate there as presently configured. It would need to be re fitted for short field operations which rules FR out of the Gib equation.Jet 2 have been sniffing round and might yet venture a route from Scotland but nothing as yet.
The ownership of the airfield is also a problem..Until very recently it was an active RAF base that allowed civvy planes to land, usually at eye watering charges. The GoG now owns part of it but the MOD still has the final say and arn`t very keen for it to be over expanded...
EK77....Just after the signing of the Cordoba agreement Iberia started a 319 service from Madrid..It sadly didnt pay and they pulled off the route (although there were politics at play as well)..Then Andalus started their route with the ERJ`s but again, insufficent business and they ceased the route, owing the Gib Government a lot of money apparantly.
FR 738`s cannot operate there as presently configured. It would need to be re fitted for short field operations which rules FR out of the Gib equation.Jet 2 have been sniffing round and might yet venture a route from Scotland but nothing as yet.
The ownership of the airfield is also a problem..Until very recently it was an active RAF base that allowed civvy planes to land, usually at eye watering charges. The GoG now owns part of it but the MOD still has the final say and arn`t very keen for it to be over expanded...
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GIB sound's like a really difficult airport! I'm surprised anyone bothers to fly there at all, or at least bothered to when it was an MOD field.
I always thought the A319 was too big for GIB-MAD with IB. Someone like EZY might... Might be able to fill one because of the low fares but 50-100 seats would seemingly be a better fit! I don't think Andalus was a very well known name either, is the E145 a cheap aircraft to operate?
I always thought the A319 was too big for GIB-MAD with IB. Someone like EZY might... Might be able to fill one because of the low fares but 50-100 seats would seemingly be a better fit! I don't think Andalus was a very well known name either, is the E145 a cheap aircraft to operate?
EK77WNCL
I really think a brief refresher on European politics and the relationship between Spain, UK and Gibraltar might not go amiss!!
If nothing else, perhaps check good old Wikipeadia.
I always thought the A319 was too big for GIB-MAD with IB
If nothing else, perhaps check good old Wikipeadia.
One thing you need to keep in mind with all this is the fact that the Spaniards can open and close the gates - and there are actual gates, not just a barrier - into Gibraltar at will (and frequently do). These same gates were locked for 15 years - not very conducive to swelling your passenger numbers, whatever price you are charging!
From Wiki:
In the 1950s, Franco renewed Spain's claim to sovereignty over Gibraltar and restricted movement between Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltarians voted overwhelmingly to remain under British sovereignty in the Gibraltar sovereignty referendum, 1967, which led to the passing of the Gibraltar Constitution Order in 1969. In response, Spain completely closed the border with Gibraltar and severed all communication links.[21] The border with Spain was partially reopened in 1982 and fully reopened in 1985 prior to Spain's accession to the European Community.
If Britain voted to leave the EU, I think it would leave Gibraltar in a very difficult situation.
With this uncertain background, if I worked for route planning for a major airline, I don't think I'd be suggesting opening any routes to Gib!
From Wiki:
In the 1950s, Franco renewed Spain's claim to sovereignty over Gibraltar and restricted movement between Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltarians voted overwhelmingly to remain under British sovereignty in the Gibraltar sovereignty referendum, 1967, which led to the passing of the Gibraltar Constitution Order in 1969. In response, Spain completely closed the border with Gibraltar and severed all communication links.[21] The border with Spain was partially reopened in 1982 and fully reopened in 1985 prior to Spain's accession to the European Community.
If Britain voted to leave the EU, I think it would leave Gibraltar in a very difficult situation.
With this uncertain background, if I worked for route planning for a major airline, I don't think I'd be suggesting opening any routes to Gib!
The surprising thing is that BA Cityflyer doesn't use the Embraer sitting in Madrid for a few hours each day between the am and Pm MAD-LCY-MAD rotations to run a MAD-GIB rotation. As BA with an Iberia codeshare and a through flight from LCY to GIB, it should be the least risk way of running the route and least cost also, since the aircraft is presently unused.
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That's actually quite a good call Flightrider... You'd think that would be worth a shot.
I don't know why Spain is so tetchy about Gibraltar, and frankly so hypocritical... Por ejemplo Ceuta, Mellila y las otras plazas de soberanía en Marruecos?
También... Melilla Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't know why Spain is so tetchy about Gibraltar, and frankly so hypocritical... Por ejemplo Ceuta, Mellila y las otras plazas de soberanía en Marruecos?
También... Melilla Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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It is the PP (the Party Popular) the political party in power at the moment which is the most vociferous. The PSOE (Labour Party) want a reasonable solution to the problem as does the new anti austerity party which has sprung up in the wake of the Greek crisis. Practically all the local population of La Linea and the surrounding district just want to get on with their lives as over 5,000 local people cross the frontier every day to work in Gibraltar and La Linea is not a very propserous area.
I really cannot see many other routes other than a Scottish one by Jet 2 using a B737-300. British Airways do well because of interlining passengers at Heathrow especially ships crew changes who would have to acquire a visa to enter Spain as most of these are from the Far East.
I really cannot see many other routes other than a Scottish one by Jet 2 using a B737-300. British Airways do well because of interlining passengers at Heathrow especially ships crew changes who would have to acquire a visa to enter Spain as most of these are from the Far East.
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I'm in full agreement with C3B, I frequently use GIB to get to LHR, the sticking point is the border, you can be stuck there for up to 7 hours with queues around all the houses if the Spanish so choose to check every single vehicle; as I travel in and out of LHR every week, it's a risk and many times I fly from XRY via MAD.
Since the financial crisis the XRY-MAD route, formerly operated by a 320/319 5-6 times a day, is now operated by a CRJ, frequently a 1000 series is subbed by a 50 seat 200 and the rotation has dropped to 4 per day. A lot of this is related to the crisis but also the introduction of the high speed train from Cadiz to Madrid. the point I'm trying to make is that within the same area as GIB, IB have difficulty to even sustain domestic services - tickets are expensive and service is non existent.
GIB is a British Overseas Territory, it needs to be reclassified as part of the UK proper, in the same way that the French deal with their overseas territories, then the Spanish would have no further case to restrict the border ( although they would probably still try). But even if this happened a Gibraltar National Airline would be a non starter
Since the financial crisis the XRY-MAD route, formerly operated by a 320/319 5-6 times a day, is now operated by a CRJ, frequently a 1000 series is subbed by a 50 seat 200 and the rotation has dropped to 4 per day. A lot of this is related to the crisis but also the introduction of the high speed train from Cadiz to Madrid. the point I'm trying to make is that within the same area as GIB, IB have difficulty to even sustain domestic services - tickets are expensive and service is non existent.
GIB is a British Overseas Territory, it needs to be reclassified as part of the UK proper, in the same way that the French deal with their overseas territories, then the Spanish would have no further case to restrict the border ( although they would probably still try). But even if this happened a Gibraltar National Airline would be a non starter
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Aksai oiler,
You make interesting points. The decline on some domestic routes ex Madrid has been immense over the last few years. Like ALC/MAD that I've had cause to use. It was very frequent with multiple 320's per day and then Vueling and IB express opersting at one point or another. air nostrum operate now for It and Swift Air for Air Europa.
Part of these reductions no doubt due to protracted recession, the focus on the turnaround of IB as part of IAG plays it's part too. But it's a cultural thing too, Ryanair launched multiple daily ALC MAD suitable for business pax and it was very poorly subscribed. I paid €17.50 returnon numerous occasions and 4 of us could travel FR on this route for the price of one return train ticket!
Of course AirEuropa are on the route in the guise of Swift Air, and like IB have a primary interest of feeding their MAD hubs and their longhaul flights.
Equally, pax ex Gib will prefer connections via London for those reasons pointed out earlier, and more the reason why GIB MAD route hasn't worked.
You make interesting points. The decline on some domestic routes ex Madrid has been immense over the last few years. Like ALC/MAD that I've had cause to use. It was very frequent with multiple 320's per day and then Vueling and IB express opersting at one point or another. air nostrum operate now for It and Swift Air for Air Europa.
Part of these reductions no doubt due to protracted recession, the focus on the turnaround of IB as part of IAG plays it's part too. But it's a cultural thing too, Ryanair launched multiple daily ALC MAD suitable for business pax and it was very poorly subscribed. I paid €17.50 returnon numerous occasions and 4 of us could travel FR on this route for the price of one return train ticket!
Of course AirEuropa are on the route in the guise of Swift Air, and like IB have a primary interest of feeding their MAD hubs and their longhaul flights.
Equally, pax ex Gib will prefer connections via London for those reasons pointed out earlier, and more the reason why GIB MAD route hasn't worked.