Air France KLM group in trouble?
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Depends
From an ownership perspective there are 2 issues.
1. KLM and AF are 2 separate operating companies therefore divorcing the two is straightforward in ownership terms and very clear. As long as assets are clearly demarked, i.e. aircraft.
2. Where problems arise is at the operational level where there are multiple links, inter-twined systems. Novation of contracts is lots of fun, and that's just one line item.
There is also a major accounting issue which seems to get forgotten, Dutch tax treatment of companies is far more favourable than French, therefore Groupe Air France has loaded liabilities on the French side understating the value of what AF brings to the table, and conversely overstating KLM.
This needs to be taken into account when considering fair value of each part of the business.
1. KLM and AF are 2 separate operating companies therefore divorcing the two is straightforward in ownership terms and very clear. As long as assets are clearly demarked, i.e. aircraft.
2. Where problems arise is at the operational level where there are multiple links, inter-twined systems. Novation of contracts is lots of fun, and that's just one line item.
There is also a major accounting issue which seems to get forgotten, Dutch tax treatment of companies is far more favourable than French, therefore Groupe Air France has loaded liabilities on the French side understating the value of what AF brings to the table, and conversely overstating KLM.
This needs to be taken into account when considering fair value of each part of the business.
short flights long nights
Thread Starter
Reading in Dutch newspapers, all does not seem well at the AF KLM. it seems war is breaking out between The Netherlands and France as to who owns the money and who is calling the shots.
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it seems war is breaking out between The Netherlands and France
My money's on the clogs' side
I have just spent 20 minutes, wasted them rather, on a complaint about lost luggage last time I flew on KLM. The problem, the call centre handling is subject to the French attitude of 'it's not our fault'.
Last edited by Capetonian; 2nd Feb 2015 at 10:50.
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I'm afraid that KLM's reputation for misconnected baggage dates from long before the tie-up with AF. I used to see the stats, and KL's misconnect rate at AMS was far worse than BA's ever was at LHR, even in the days of the dreaded T1/T4 baggage tunnel.
I learned never to check a bag through AMS....after bitter personal experience.
I learned never to check a bag through AMS....after bitter personal experience.
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I know that, but if you had a choice of connecting via AMS and flying KLM, or connecting via the hellhole that CDG is and flying on AF, which would you do? Also KLM offer a day flight down to CPT which I love, even though I know most people prefer to fly at night.
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Jissie maar daai girls is moei!
I have to say my experience with KLM has always been brilliant. Upon arrival in Cape Town on our last flight, they told us luggage stayed in AMS due to the inability to offload our Fokker from NWI (high winds/safety issue).
No worries they said, buy some clothes, toiletries and nappies etc and we'll pick up the bill. So Mrs. Greekboy (Dutch actually
) and I went on a spending spree. KLM paid out within a week upon arrival back in the UK. And we claimed the vat back at CPT.
Have flown AF too and never ever again.
I have to say my experience with KLM has always been brilliant. Upon arrival in Cape Town on our last flight, they told us luggage stayed in AMS due to the inability to offload our Fokker from NWI (high winds/safety issue).
No worries they said, buy some clothes, toiletries and nappies etc and we'll pick up the bill. So Mrs. Greekboy (Dutch actually
) and I went on a spending spree. KLM paid out within a week upon arrival back in the UK. And we claimed the vat back at CPT.Have flown AF too and never ever again.
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KLM
Sitting at LHR, & notice yet again that KL are using Fk70 on LHR/AMS, it seems to routinely be the Fokker or E190 these days, not much revenue for such expensive slots!
How long will it be before Delta or IAG start looking at buying KLM, grabbing those slots and using Amsterdam as an improved counter to Gulf, Turkish and LCC Competition?
For sure KLM are hurting under Air France!
FF
How long will it be before Delta or IAG start looking at buying KLM, grabbing those slots and using Amsterdam as an improved counter to Gulf, Turkish and LCC Competition?
For sure KLM are hurting under Air France!
FF
Does head AF-KL Group have any intention of willingly selling part or all of its KLM subsidiary ? If not, any discussion about IAG buying KLM is just theoretical speculation - it's a similiar idea to IAG buying Swiss from Lufthansa
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How long will it be before Delta or IAG start looking at buying KLM, grabbing those slots and using Amsterdam as an improved counter to Gulf, Turkish and LCC Competition?
BA had its chance to buy KL some years ago and it all went pear-shaped. All hypothetical of course, AF-KL isn't selling.
That's not to say that IAG wouldn't necessarily mind buying the KL slice of AF-KL, if only to grab a share of the pax that travel east from UK airports not linked to LHR. This would enable IAG to channel them through AMS on KL.
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DL could only ever buy a part of KL, just as they own a apart of VS (yes, yes, the tail wags the dog).
BA had its chance to buy KL some years ago and it all went pear-shaped. All hypothetical of course, AF-KL isn't selling.
That's not to say that IAG wouldn't necessarily mind buying the KL slice of AF-KL, if only to grab a share of the pax that travel east from UK airports not linked to LHR. This would enable IAG to channel them through AMS on KL.
BA had its chance to buy KL some years ago and it all went pear-shaped. All hypothetical of course, AF-KL isn't selling.
That's not to say that IAG wouldn't necessarily mind buying the KL slice of AF-KL, if only to grab a share of the pax that travel east from UK airports not linked to LHR. This would enable IAG to channel them through AMS on KL.
Thats the point I think, DL is looking outside of US, is part of Skyteam, wants LHR slots, needs to compete with Gulf carriers - and would allow AFR to retain the illusion of ownership - Delta has a big tail and AFR is a dog.....
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Thats the point I think, DL is looking outside of US, is part of Skyteam, wants LHR slots, needs to compete with Gulf carriers - and would allow AFR to retain the illusion of ownership - Delta has a big tail and AFR is a dog.....
Maybe if DL wanted LHR slots that badly, it should have linked up with an EU company and put in a bid for BD!
