EDI Transatlantic flight on the cards?
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Joe,
One other big difference twixt EDI and BHX is that Brum and Edi are at opposite ends of the 'a pleasure to operate through' range! Would you like to guess which 'end' EDI is at?
One other big difference twixt EDI and BHX is that Brum and Edi are at opposite ends of the 'a pleasure to operate through' range! Would you like to guess which 'end' EDI is at?
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>>One other big difference twixt EDI and BHX is that Brum and Edi are at opposite ends of the 'a pleasure to operate through' range! Would you like to guess which 'end' EDI is at?<<
Given that both BHX and EDI have different owners - BHX is
independent, as opposed to EDI being monopoly owned - one
must accept, reluctantly, that EDI is at the nose-bleed
end?
Given that both BHX and EDI have different owners - BHX is
independent, as opposed to EDI being monopoly owned - one
must accept, reluctantly, that EDI is at the nose-bleed
end?
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err. Correct!
Is it really down to just who owns the places tho? I mean it doesn't really matter which operational area one looks at ie. BA handling (improving tho, it must be said), ATC, 6 miles for everything + super cautious/slow (but v.safe) or ground handling (two men doing the work of three) and so on. Can't pretend to have a solution regrettably but its a very unsatisfying airport to operate at. There is a distinct lack of urgency about the whole place. Makes me mad!!!!!!
:o
Is it really down to just who owns the places tho? I mean it doesn't really matter which operational area one looks at ie. BA handling (improving tho, it must be said), ATC, 6 miles for everything + super cautious/slow (but v.safe) or ground handling (two men doing the work of three) and so on. Can't pretend to have a solution regrettably but its a very unsatisfying airport to operate at. There is a distinct lack of urgency about the whole place. Makes me mad!!!!!!
:o
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Brain Fade,
regretably the six mile spacing for everything is a necessity due to the lack of highspeed turn off/ons leading to much higher than normal runway occupancy times. As it is the phrases "Expect late landing clearance" and "Line up be ready immediate" are becoming so frequent we're thinking about putting them on the ATIS. Besides there's little point in bombing down the approach at 250 knots 3 miles behind the previous only to be told your stand is inevitably occupied.
regretably the six mile spacing for everything is a necessity due to the lack of highspeed turn off/ons leading to much higher than normal runway occupancy times. As it is the phrases "Expect late landing clearance" and "Line up be ready immediate" are becoming so frequent we're thinking about putting them on the ATIS. Besides there's little point in bombing down the approach at 250 knots 3 miles behind the previous only to be told your stand is inevitably occupied.
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>>Can't pretend to have a solution regrettably but its a very unsatisfying airport to operate at. There is a distinct lack of urgency about the whole place. Makes me mad!!!!!!<<
BAA have little enthusiasm for EDI and it shows. :-(
Donal Dowds has come out with some right retorts recently.
"Leave the running of EDI to the professionals" and describing
critics as "Amatuer commentators" are but two gems!
BAA have little enthusiasm for EDI and it shows. :-(
Donal Dowds has come out with some right retorts recently.
"Leave the running of EDI to the professionals" and describing
critics as "Amatuer commentators" are but two gems!
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>>Besides there's little point in bombing down the approach at 250 knots 3 miles behind the previous only to be told your stand is inevitably occupied.<<
Going back to Donal Dowds again, "EDI has plenty of stands".
circa 1998?, BAA then went on to construct a further half dozen or so in the cul-de-sac.
What happened to Phase II of the new terminal?, it was supposed to transform the terminal into a perfect horseshoe shape....seems to me that BAA's plans for EDI are nothing but
pure hot air to appease the critics.
Going back to Donal Dowds again, "EDI has plenty of stands".
circa 1998?, BAA then went on to construct a further half dozen or so in the cul-de-sac.
What happened to Phase II of the new terminal?, it was supposed to transform the terminal into a perfect horseshoe shape....seems to me that BAA's plans for EDI are nothing but
pure hot air to appease the critics.
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Bagheera. Thank you for that info. I thought it was in case you missed the turn (as a -8 amazingly did the other day!). cant pretend that i am in any way an ATC expert..... but your runway occupancy is pi** poor compared to the likes of cdg for example. Also there are a few controllers who seem to take no allowance for the wind. Therefore same six mile stuff on 24 even with sixty or seventy Kt HWC on final. I must admit tho' the ground freq has a bit of a job with the airport layout. Don't you think there are rather a lot of obstructive 'rules' tho? For example the no 'one backtrack, while another lines up' on 06. Surely you could remember, and even if you forgot its a bit unlikely that the one on full length is going to open the taps and ram the other up the chuff isn't it? Some of the pushback rules seem a bit 'flat earth society' also. I could go on, and we know you need a better located tower, but why bother? I am sure you are as aware, if not more so ,than I am of the situation! BF
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Brain Fade, the no "one backtracking, one from the intersection departure" rule on RW 06 is exactly that, THE RULE. On 06 we cannot see either aircraft from the tower, it may seem pedantic to you, but do you really want us controlling traffic that we cannot see. As for "surely you would remember", well yes you would think so, but in very busy situations controllers have been known to make mistakes. Also you wouldn't think the one behind would roll into the one lining up. Well it has happened before elsewhere. You were totally right about the layout of the airport making a difficult job for the ground controller. I know its annoying for those flying the aircraft but it is just as annoying for us in ATC. Yes the rules on ground make it a longer wait for push back, but we HAVE to have 2 clear stands between jet aircraft pushing back, it avoids blowing away the ground crew. We don't like having to hold aircraft off stand while they wait for 2 or 3 to push in order to vacate their stands, but sometimes its unavoidable. Try explaining to a pilot that you held him on stand, pushed someone else first so you could taxi someone in, and oops now he's missed his slot! We do the best we can with difficult circumstances and provide the best runway utilisation we can under difficult circumstances, can you imagine how infuriating it is to have a queue of traffic at the holding point, 6 or 7 inbounds in sequence and then the first aircraft at the holding point pipes up "oh by the way, we require a backtrack". Sorry rant over, your point is very valid and I'm sure you were in no way implying that it was ATCs fault. If you are interested please come and visit us in the tower, and if you are a pilot flying into Edi please please complain loudly about the lack of full lenghth taxiways and get everyone you know to do the same, god knows we have been trying. Hopefully things will improve when we get our new tower, but then again I could have just seen a pig fly by
(edited for gross stupidity cos I didn't read the previous post properly b4 I started ranting, my most humble apologies to you BF)
(edited for gross stupidity cos I didn't read the previous post properly b4 I started ranting, my most humble apologies to you BF)
Last edited by athene; 11th Jun 2002 at 20:25.
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edi
i worked in the movements section at raf turnhouse in 88-89 and occasionaly went in to the tower. the tower as many may realise is the old raf one. i remember people complaining then about the lack of a full length taxiway, as edi is now scotlands busiest airfield(i was v amazed when i found that out) why doesnt baa spend money ? i get the impression that they're more interested in glasgow(shades of the traditional west coast east coast rivalry i think), i also think its stupid that edi has got a rainlway line going past , but no station unlike prestwick! mind you when the terminal was on the same side as the tower there was a station nearby.
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Given that both BHX and EDI have different owners - BHX is independent, as opposed to EDI being monopoly owned
seems to me that BAA's plans for EDI are nothing but
pure hot air to appease the critics
pure hot air to appease the critics
Donal Dowds has come out with some right retorts recently.
"Leave the running of EDI to the professionals" and describing
critics as "Amatuer commentators" are but two gems!
"Leave the running of EDI to the professionals" and describing
critics as "Amatuer commentators" are but two gems!
Last edited by Lt Manuel Hung; 9th Jul 2002 at 12:34.
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BAA not a monopoly.? Read this from Business AM:
Sorry it's over one year ago and the URL has expired.?
Source: BusinessAM
Author Paul Stokes
Airport policy flies in the face of common sense
Published: 00:00, Apr 26, 2001 -
AS A relatively small northern European country, geograph-ically remote from its major markets,
effective and competitive air travel should be a priority for Scotland.
Actually, almost all aspects of aviation are outside the scope of the devolution settlement and are
handled on a UK basis. So, with an election coming up, (June 01) how well is the UK government doing for us
here in Scotland? In short, it's not good.
Shortly after the 1997 election, Labour doubled the airline levy tax, which had been introduced by
the Conservatives, from £5 to £10 per trip. In treasury terms, of course, this is a "good tax" since it
costs almost nothing to collect.
Rail journeys are not taxed, even first class ones, but air journeys, even the Ryanair £19 cheapos,
are. Since most business trips in England are by rail or car, but most Scots have to get on a plane,
it is hard to escape the conclusion that this airline levy is, in effect, a tax on doing business based in
Scotland.
The treasury team that did this was Gordon Brown, Helen Liddell and Alistair Darling. You would have
thought they might have noticed.!
Airport ownership.
If an airline can't reach a good deal on operating a service into Glasgow Airport, it can always try
negotiating with Edinburgh right? Wrong.
The same company, BAA, owns both Edinburgh and Glasgow, along with Aberdeen, Heathrow, Gatwick
and Stansted. Anywhere else, this is called a monopoly.
Does BAA care if we get transatlantic flights into Scotland? Not really. By passing you through Heathrow
or Gatwick, it gets your business twice.
Airport Infrastructure
There was a time when far-sighted local US politicians were building airports in key locations, such as Chicago
and Atlanta, to serve as hubs for the growing cross-continental air travel market. These developments have
brought huge economic benefit to their regions.
While all this was going on, our leading politicians thought that Prestwick, in a remote corner of Ayrshire, was
the perfect location for Scotland's international airport. Tory Scottish secretaries behind this policy, of course,
George Younger and Ian Lang, were Ayrshire MPs.
Scotland is actually on the flight path between much of Europe and North America. A substantial hub airport
based in central Scotland, beside railway links and motorways, and serviced by a major international airline,
could lead to a powerful network of services between major US and European cities and would bring incalcul-able
economic benefit to Scotland along the way. Amsterdam, Brussels and Dublin are making substantial progress
doing just that why not Scotland?
What a shame we never had a Scottish secretary from Edinburgh.
Protectionism
When British Airways was a state-owned airline, international agreements were reached to protect it from
competition, but now that it is a private company they still persist, especially across the Atlantic.
The Bermuda II negotiations between the UK and US are still being conducted for the benefit of British Airways.
British Midland was recently blocked from offering new low-cost fares from Scotland to the US.
A Dutchman flying from Amsterdam via Heathrow to the US today will pay hundreds of pounds less than a Scot.
It's hard to believe that our government is actually forcing the airlines to charge Scots higher prices, even though
we are closer to North America.
The transport minister in charge of all this should know a bit about Scotland; Gus MacDonald's last job was
running Scottish Television.
And what is this specially protected British Airways doing for the Scot who wants to fly internationally? Well, the
"world's favourite airline" has one solitary international route from Scotland (Edinburgh to Paris). Go anywhere
else with BA, and you will first go somewhere you didn't want to, like Birmingham. It really would be more honest
if they were called "English Airways".
Drills
Finally, I can't resist a moan about the government-imposed safety briefings in which the stewardess shows you
how to put on a lifejacket. In my business career I must have been subjected to this floor show thousands of times
between Edinburgh and London. Where exactly do they expect us to come down in the Manchester Ship Canal?
It's not an impressive list of government intervention. It seems that we Scots are condemned forever to interconnect
via other hubs to get to most European and North American destinations adding inconvenience and costing us
all considerable time and money. And until our government stops protecting the airports and carriers, and starts
supporting the passengers, it's not likely to change much.
Acknowledgements to Paul Stokes and Business AM
Sorry it's over one year ago and the URL has expired.?
Source: BusinessAM
Author Paul Stokes
Airport policy flies in the face of common sense
Published: 00:00, Apr 26, 2001 -
AS A relatively small northern European country, geograph-ically remote from its major markets,
effective and competitive air travel should be a priority for Scotland.
Actually, almost all aspects of aviation are outside the scope of the devolution settlement and are
handled on a UK basis. So, with an election coming up, (June 01) how well is the UK government doing for us
here in Scotland? In short, it's not good.
Shortly after the 1997 election, Labour doubled the airline levy tax, which had been introduced by
the Conservatives, from £5 to £10 per trip. In treasury terms, of course, this is a "good tax" since it
costs almost nothing to collect.
Rail journeys are not taxed, even first class ones, but air journeys, even the Ryanair £19 cheapos,
are. Since most business trips in England are by rail or car, but most Scots have to get on a plane,
it is hard to escape the conclusion that this airline levy is, in effect, a tax on doing business based in
Scotland.
The treasury team that did this was Gordon Brown, Helen Liddell and Alistair Darling. You would have
thought they might have noticed.!
Airport ownership.
If an airline can't reach a good deal on operating a service into Glasgow Airport, it can always try
negotiating with Edinburgh right? Wrong.
The same company, BAA, owns both Edinburgh and Glasgow, along with Aberdeen, Heathrow, Gatwick
and Stansted. Anywhere else, this is called a monopoly.
Does BAA care if we get transatlantic flights into Scotland? Not really. By passing you through Heathrow
or Gatwick, it gets your business twice.
Airport Infrastructure
There was a time when far-sighted local US politicians were building airports in key locations, such as Chicago
and Atlanta, to serve as hubs for the growing cross-continental air travel market. These developments have
brought huge economic benefit to their regions.
While all this was going on, our leading politicians thought that Prestwick, in a remote corner of Ayrshire, was
the perfect location for Scotland's international airport. Tory Scottish secretaries behind this policy, of course,
George Younger and Ian Lang, were Ayrshire MPs.
Scotland is actually on the flight path between much of Europe and North America. A substantial hub airport
based in central Scotland, beside railway links and motorways, and serviced by a major international airline,
could lead to a powerful network of services between major US and European cities and would bring incalcul-able
economic benefit to Scotland along the way. Amsterdam, Brussels and Dublin are making substantial progress
doing just that why not Scotland?
What a shame we never had a Scottish secretary from Edinburgh.
Protectionism
When British Airways was a state-owned airline, international agreements were reached to protect it from
competition, but now that it is a private company they still persist, especially across the Atlantic.
The Bermuda II negotiations between the UK and US are still being conducted for the benefit of British Airways.
British Midland was recently blocked from offering new low-cost fares from Scotland to the US.
A Dutchman flying from Amsterdam via Heathrow to the US today will pay hundreds of pounds less than a Scot.
It's hard to believe that our government is actually forcing the airlines to charge Scots higher prices, even though
we are closer to North America.
The transport minister in charge of all this should know a bit about Scotland; Gus MacDonald's last job was
running Scottish Television.
And what is this specially protected British Airways doing for the Scot who wants to fly internationally? Well, the
"world's favourite airline" has one solitary international route from Scotland (Edinburgh to Paris). Go anywhere
else with BA, and you will first go somewhere you didn't want to, like Birmingham. It really would be more honest
if they were called "English Airways".
Drills
Finally, I can't resist a moan about the government-imposed safety briefings in which the stewardess shows you
how to put on a lifejacket. In my business career I must have been subjected to this floor show thousands of times
between Edinburgh and London. Where exactly do they expect us to come down in the Manchester Ship Canal?
It's not an impressive list of government intervention. It seems that we Scots are condemned forever to interconnect
via other hubs to get to most European and North American destinations adding inconvenience and costing us
all considerable time and money. And until our government stops protecting the airports and carriers, and starts
supporting the passengers, it's not likely to change much.
Acknowledgements to Paul Stokes and Business AM
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>>i remember people complaining then about the lack of a full length taxiway, as edi is now scotlands busiest airfield(i was v amazed when i found that out) why doesnt baa spend
money ?<<
BAA stated recently that the taxiway extentions at EDI would
cost £1M. Wonder what it would have cost in 1973.?
Why doesn't BAA spend.? I think it's down to enthusiasm, they
seem to have little for their EDI operation.....look at the evidence,
or should that be the lack of it.?
Amatuer commentators v professionals.? I refer my learned
friends to the recent ATC tower planning 'cock-up'!
money ?<<
BAA stated recently that the taxiway extentions at EDI would
cost £1M. Wonder what it would have cost in 1973.?
Why doesn't BAA spend.? I think it's down to enthusiasm, they
seem to have little for their EDI operation.....look at the evidence,
or should that be the lack of it.?
Amatuer commentators v professionals.? I refer my learned
friends to the recent ATC tower planning 'cock-up'!
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Joe - don't understand your point with this article, it's got nothing to do with EDI, and very little with BAA (and even less that makes any sense). The writer shows an amazing lack of knowledge about the airline industry, and what little he has was gained as a passenger. Still, ignorance never stopped anyone, eh Joe?
The comment about lifejackets is appalling. Remember the Shed that ditched at Granton? If anyone had got out of it they would have been very glad of a life jacket. But they didn't of course. RIP.
The business case is obvious (or ought to be). East central Scotland has one airport; West central Scotland with it's larger population has two. As a whole, central Scotland has three airports each within 90 minutes drive. This is substantially better than the South East of England. As a country Scotland has five large airports. England, with a population ten times the size has double that number. We're not so badly off really.
The tower needs sorted for safety reasons, and the business case shouldn't really affect that. Full length taxiways would be nice but isn't a huge business issue at the moment. It's a simple question of whether investing that £1m is going to generate a return for the company. They obviously think not. If you want to prove otherwise, make a sensible business case or shut up. It might be a hobby to you, but BAA is around to make a profit from running an airport, not to provide spotters with interesting photo opportunities.
The comment about lifejackets is appalling. Remember the Shed that ditched at Granton? If anyone had got out of it they would have been very glad of a life jacket. But they didn't of course. RIP.
The business case is obvious (or ought to be). East central Scotland has one airport; West central Scotland with it's larger population has two. As a whole, central Scotland has three airports each within 90 minutes drive. This is substantially better than the South East of England. As a country Scotland has five large airports. England, with a population ten times the size has double that number. We're not so badly off really.
The tower needs sorted for safety reasons, and the business case shouldn't really affect that. Full length taxiways would be nice but isn't a huge business issue at the moment. It's a simple question of whether investing that £1m is going to generate a return for the company. They obviously think not. If you want to prove otherwise, make a sensible business case or shut up. It might be a hobby to you, but BAA is around to make a profit from running an airport, not to provide spotters with interesting photo opportunities.
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Mr Curry's ramblings re BAA have been around as long as the internet itself. They still follow the same two, mutually exclusive lines of argument
1) (when addressing anyone from anywhere other than Western Scotland)
* "BAA favours GLA more than EDI"
* "BAA have little enthusiasm for EDI and it shows....
* "EDI being monopoly owned - one must accept, reluctantly, that EDI is at the nose-bleed end"
2) (when addressing anyone who might be defined as being "pro-Glasgow")
* "EDI is the Scottish number one airport for scheduled International Traffic"
"EDI not hosting scheduled TX flights?....of course it will, one thing for sure, it is not destined to become a municipal airport on the wrong side of the Clyde"
*"EDI was Scotland's busiest airport for the 1st. quarter of 2001"
..and there you have it summarised. BAA have no enthusiasm for EDI and favour GLA yet have simultaneously grown it into Scotland's largest airport for scheduled traffic and busiest overall in the first quarter of this year.
I suggest more credibility would be gained by pursuing just one line of argument.
682
1) (when addressing anyone from anywhere other than Western Scotland)
* "BAA favours GLA more than EDI"
* "BAA have little enthusiasm for EDI and it shows....
* "EDI being monopoly owned - one must accept, reluctantly, that EDI is at the nose-bleed end"
2) (when addressing anyone who might be defined as being "pro-Glasgow")
* "EDI is the Scottish number one airport for scheduled International Traffic"
"EDI not hosting scheduled TX flights?....of course it will, one thing for sure, it is not destined to become a municipal airport on the wrong side of the Clyde"
*"EDI was Scotland's busiest airport for the 1st. quarter of 2001"
..and there you have it summarised. BAA have no enthusiasm for EDI and favour GLA yet have simultaneously grown it into Scotland's largest airport for scheduled traffic and busiest overall in the first quarter of this year.
I suggest more credibility would be gained by pursuing just one line of argument.
682
