GB Rules - OK?
Big Dog's:
I think you have summed things up about right. At the end of the day BALPA will go along with whoever is most likely to pay their salaries.
In my career so far, I have been involved with BALPA, ALPA, The International Brotherhood of Teamsters and God knows how many other "negotiating bodies".
At the end of the day, I decided that it was much more practical (at our level of aviation) to have an "In-House PLC". This has worked incredibly well. Not long ago we negotiated a bloody good deal which involved much animosity from the management but who finally came to realise that we both had the Company's interests at heart.
After all, the only benefit of being in BALPA is the so-called "legal benefits". The only trouble with that is that BALPA can choose not to represent you if they don't think they can win.
To this extent I got involved in the early days of Aircrew Legal Protection which, for around £120 per year guarantees to represent your ass (instant legal representation regardless of blame) if you happen slide off the end of the Athens runway.
I wish you well in GB Airways. I have fond memory of when GibAir first got going with a DC-3 (G-AMFV?). It went from Gib to Tangier several times a day.
One night, the RAF lads at North Front in "high spirits" got a pot of black paint and painted a "YO" in front of "Gibair"!
We thought this to be amusing but the crusty old ****** who had to fly it first thing in the morning was not amused!
Good Luck.
PS. I no longer have an interest in Aircrew Legal Protection Ltd except as a customer.
I think you have summed things up about right. At the end of the day BALPA will go along with whoever is most likely to pay their salaries.
In my career so far, I have been involved with BALPA, ALPA, The International Brotherhood of Teamsters and God knows how many other "negotiating bodies".
At the end of the day, I decided that it was much more practical (at our level of aviation) to have an "In-House PLC". This has worked incredibly well. Not long ago we negotiated a bloody good deal which involved much animosity from the management but who finally came to realise that we both had the Company's interests at heart.
After all, the only benefit of being in BALPA is the so-called "legal benefits". The only trouble with that is that BALPA can choose not to represent you if they don't think they can win.
To this extent I got involved in the early days of Aircrew Legal Protection which, for around £120 per year guarantees to represent your ass (instant legal representation regardless of blame) if you happen slide off the end of the Athens runway.
I wish you well in GB Airways. I have fond memory of when GibAir first got going with a DC-3 (G-AMFV?). It went from Gib to Tangier several times a day.
One night, the RAF lads at North Front in "high spirits" got a pot of black paint and painted a "YO" in front of "Gibair"!
We thought this to be amusing but the crusty old ****** who had to fly it first thing in the morning was not amused!
Good Luck.
PS. I no longer have an interest in Aircrew Legal Protection Ltd except as a customer.
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It shames most of us that certain idiots readily support the notion that we are all merely bus drivers and deserve no more pay than such. Please explain your logic as to how Ryanairs success has been earned by screwing their pilots? I seem to recall that they are amongst the highest paid in the UK. I also seem to recall that whilst Sabena went belly up because of appalling management, their flight crew were on very good salaries for relatively few block hours per annum, a somewhat different scenario to most BA pilots who are on relatively low salaries whilst working relatively high hours by most industry standards. I suspect it is you that needs to wake up and recognise the new economic reality of the industry, the reality that if you don't fight for everything you've got it'll be gone tomorrow. The handover over of long haul routes to a franchise would likely lead to a 3 figure reduction in pilot numbers in BA, then another 3 figure reduction as few more routes go, until ultimately there are no BA pilots left flying BA liveried aircraft. If we're going to blindly accept that then we might as well all quit now. I suspect you must be very happy with your small garden, which is all a bus drivers wage will buy you.
Edited to say that you, of course, won't be on a bus drivers wage because your previous posts indicate that not only are you not a pilot, you seem to have little or no idea what being one actually involves. If you wish to spout your prejudiced, anti-pilot nonsense then please do so on another thread. Come back when you have the slightest bit of understanding of airline economics, you might have something useful to contribute then.
Edited to say that you, of course, won't be on a bus drivers wage because your previous posts indicate that not only are you not a pilot, you seem to have little or no idea what being one actually involves. If you wish to spout your prejudiced, anti-pilot nonsense then please do so on another thread. Come back when you have the slightest bit of understanding of airline economics, you might have something useful to contribute then.
Last edited by Hand Solo; 20th May 2002 at 23:29.
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Well it seems that our views are closer than at first thought. Indeed BA is a huge, top heavy, over-managed monolith, but monopolist? No! The UK is by far the most competitive aviation market in Europe. BA hasn't enjoyed a monopoly on most of its routes for many, many years. Power may rest with lobby groups, bankers, boardrooms at the moment and not with organised labour, but when was the last time organised labour flexed their muscles in BA?
Try thinking of BA as being like one of those Vietnamese houses on bamboo stilts. In the past the house was sturdy and was doing nicely as a small but profitable and expanding B&B. Sadly over the years the house had numerous unnecessary extensions added, cappucino bars were built, bespoke-suited friends and relatives came to to visit and never left, guests were told they were no longer welcome and in the back yard the small independent GB B&B prospered with our unwelcome guests. Then disaster strikes, a whole row of low cost hostels opens up on the river bank and takes lots of our remaining business. The BA house is creaking under its own weight, money has been squandered on gambling, botched redecorations, reckless forays into foreign B&Bs and feeding the visitors, so much so that now they can't pay the rent! So do they cutback the size of the house? No, they decide to offload some of the stilts holding it up to other houses to reduce costs.
Thats exactly where BA is today, creaking under the weight of its own bureacracy and overstaffing. Down in the swamp mud below the house we're hanging on to those stilts like grim death, because we know the house isn't held up by magic and if you keep taking the stilts away, sooner or later the whole things going to come crashing down and bury us. So what are our options? Do we do nothing and wait to be squashed into the mud, do we try to swim for a smaller patch of mud under a different house, or do we tell the residents of upstairs that unless they get serious and come up with a sustainable survival plan we're going to take all the stilts away ourselves for a few days and see how they like swimming. Sadly everything indicates that the only thing that will shift the attention of the residents from the 'Hot/Cold Danish Pastry Dilemma Focus Group' is the thought of getting their Armani suits muddy and having to take them to the dry cleaning annexe. Unless we force them to address the real problems BA has they'll just keep kicking away the stilts instead of turning on themselves and lopping off a conservatory or two. Once they know there are no more easy savings to be had they'll have to start making the hard savings which are our only hope of salvation. Its a depressing situation, but thats what its coming to, and very soon.
Try thinking of BA as being like one of those Vietnamese houses on bamboo stilts. In the past the house was sturdy and was doing nicely as a small but profitable and expanding B&B. Sadly over the years the house had numerous unnecessary extensions added, cappucino bars were built, bespoke-suited friends and relatives came to to visit and never left, guests were told they were no longer welcome and in the back yard the small independent GB B&B prospered with our unwelcome guests. Then disaster strikes, a whole row of low cost hostels opens up on the river bank and takes lots of our remaining business. The BA house is creaking under its own weight, money has been squandered on gambling, botched redecorations, reckless forays into foreign B&Bs and feeding the visitors, so much so that now they can't pay the rent! So do they cutback the size of the house? No, they decide to offload some of the stilts holding it up to other houses to reduce costs.
Thats exactly where BA is today, creaking under the weight of its own bureacracy and overstaffing. Down in the swamp mud below the house we're hanging on to those stilts like grim death, because we know the house isn't held up by magic and if you keep taking the stilts away, sooner or later the whole things going to come crashing down and bury us. So what are our options? Do we do nothing and wait to be squashed into the mud, do we try to swim for a smaller patch of mud under a different house, or do we tell the residents of upstairs that unless they get serious and come up with a sustainable survival plan we're going to take all the stilts away ourselves for a few days and see how they like swimming. Sadly everything indicates that the only thing that will shift the attention of the residents from the 'Hot/Cold Danish Pastry Dilemma Focus Group' is the thought of getting their Armani suits muddy and having to take them to the dry cleaning annexe. Unless we force them to address the real problems BA has they'll just keep kicking away the stilts instead of turning on themselves and lopping off a conservatory or two. Once they know there are no more easy savings to be had they'll have to start making the hard savings which are our only hope of salvation. Its a depressing situation, but thats what its coming to, and very soon.
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GB Rules - OK?
With regards to the topic on BA pilots flying for GB Airways, what a load of codswallop!
Yet again the Nigels are whingeing away because things aren´t going their way.
They are jealous that Gb are a forward going company whilst their management is in shambles and going in reverse at high speed.
Gb Airways pride themselves in their high quality product to their customers. Many a time a passenger gets on board a GB (BA) flight and says, "It is obvious you are not British Airways. Your cabin crew are polite and courteous and the service is sceond to none". Enough said on that!
Even your former colleagues who left at 55 and saw the light in coming to GB, often comment on our standards as being amongst the highest in aviation and how well motivated the staff at GB are.
How often do you arrive on stand and there is nobody to meet your aircraft (sometimes 40 minutes) due to a "lack of staff"? It is extremely embarrassing. Most BA staff run around with sour faces, uncertain about their future.
Now that your bean counters have closed your lucrative Final Salary Pension Scheme, no one in their right minds wants to come and join you lot.
So a message to you Nigels, stop whingeing and come and join a decent company!!!
Comments?????
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Just wanted to say that I almost always use GB Airways down to Spain several times a year.
You have a superb little airline particularly your A320/321s everything about the operation from service to aircraft cleanliness and seat space is excellent, and your ticket prices are invariably cheaper than the so called budget airlines (im saving nearly £300 compared to GO prices) and for this I still get a very nice meal, free newspaper plus all the goodies to keep the children happy and sometimes the adults too.
Can't really fault anything except that its probably time to retire the 737 as the Airbus is far superior with regard to cabin space.
Keep the good work up I hope we can bring BA up to the same standard.
You have a superb little airline particularly your A320/321s everything about the operation from service to aircraft cleanliness and seat space is excellent, and your ticket prices are invariably cheaper than the so called budget airlines (im saving nearly £300 compared to GO prices) and for this I still get a very nice meal, free newspaper plus all the goodies to keep the children happy and sometimes the adults too.
Can't really fault anything except that its probably time to retire the 737 as the Airbus is far superior with regard to cabin space.
Keep the good work up I hope we can bring BA up to the same standard.
Pininstauld:
I have to congratulate you. I have actually gone through your erudite posting some three times and that is a record for me.
You have absolutely hit the nail on the head.
For those of you who did not understand - pay attention!
I have to congratulate you. I have actually gone through your erudite posting some three times and that is a record for me.
You have absolutely hit the nail on the head.
For those of you who did not understand - pay attention!
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Don't count out the heavy-weight boxer that staggers for the first time from a well landed punch. It certainly doesn't mean that a light-weight suddenly can take him on.
BA is not as bad off as many Nigel haters would like to believe, or as bad as they perpetuate themselves. And the smaller firms are not as strong as they would like to make you believe. Have you ever heard of Contrarian Investing. As soon as you start seeing how crap a firm is in every newspaper daily and their share price lies battered on the floor as investors rush for the door, that is when the smart money quietly buys. BA's tough ride is not yet over I will not be buying yet.
But for Remember "BA's ongoing focus on cash conservation resulted in a closing cash balance of £1,219 million; the largest year-end balance since privatisation. Cash burn in the fourth quarter was zero." More property disposals to come, as well as DBA and a hefty credit line in the billions.
The tremendous growth of low cost will be difficult to maintain, the market is only so big in Europe. Outside of Europe how fast can he expand and at what cost ? Why Do you think Stelios is buying GO and others at such a high price (3 times Go's value last year)? It couldn't be because a merger was the only way such a majority share holder in Easyjet could cash out 100mill pounds worth of shares without causing a collapse in his own share price ? No that would only be cynical of me....or maybe just contrarian.
This is not to say that the tide is already turning, but turn it will. Easyjet, Ryanair, BA all have their niche to fill like it or not. If regulators eventually free BA management to merge like they intend, they will also one day be part of something even bigger. I will be happy for anyone to re-post this statement 2-3years down the road and laugh at how silly I was.
By the time you know it's a band-wagon, it's already too late.
BA is not as bad off as many Nigel haters would like to believe, or as bad as they perpetuate themselves. And the smaller firms are not as strong as they would like to make you believe. Have you ever heard of Contrarian Investing. As soon as you start seeing how crap a firm is in every newspaper daily and their share price lies battered on the floor as investors rush for the door, that is when the smart money quietly buys. BA's tough ride is not yet over I will not be buying yet.
But for Remember "BA's ongoing focus on cash conservation resulted in a closing cash balance of £1,219 million; the largest year-end balance since privatisation. Cash burn in the fourth quarter was zero." More property disposals to come, as well as DBA and a hefty credit line in the billions.
The tremendous growth of low cost will be difficult to maintain, the market is only so big in Europe. Outside of Europe how fast can he expand and at what cost ? Why Do you think Stelios is buying GO and others at such a high price (3 times Go's value last year)? It couldn't be because a merger was the only way such a majority share holder in Easyjet could cash out 100mill pounds worth of shares without causing a collapse in his own share price ? No that would only be cynical of me....or maybe just contrarian.
This is not to say that the tide is already turning, but turn it will. Easyjet, Ryanair, BA all have their niche to fill like it or not. If regulators eventually free BA management to merge like they intend, they will also one day be part of something even bigger. I will be happy for anyone to re-post this statement 2-3years down the road and laugh at how silly I was.
By the time you know it's a band-wagon, it's already too late.
Last edited by airrage; 24th May 2002 at 13:33.
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Pininstauld, you are absoloutely correct about the internal politics of airlines and in particular BA. However you forgot to mention Sir Colin Marshall in your list of inspirational leaders. He was the 'cultural architect' who really started the shift away from the civil service mentality of BEA/BOAC. Sadly the 'politicians' now seem to rule the roost once again.
I think we all know of individuals who having proved their incompetence at one airline crop up at another, where it is no surprise that they once again display an predictable lack of ability. The old boy network ensures that there is always another politician offering patronage to one of his mates.
This is probably why new start-ups are always successful for the first few years, only people of ability count and can achieve success. Give it time and the old boy network will come into play.
I think we all know of individuals who having proved their incompetence at one airline crop up at another, where it is no surprise that they once again display an predictable lack of ability. The old boy network ensures that there is always another politician offering patronage to one of his mates.
This is probably why new start-ups are always successful for the first few years, only people of ability count and can achieve success. Give it time and the old boy network will come into play.
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Anyone remember this post from May 24, 2002 ? Easyjets share were over £4 then, now £1.23.
Don't count out the heavy-weight boxer that staggers for the first time from a well landed punch. It certainly doesn't mean that a light-weight suddenly can take him on.
BA is not as bad off as many Nigel haters would like to believe, or as bad as they perpetuate themselves. And the smaller firms are not as strong as they would like to make you believe. Have you ever heard of Contrarian Investing. As soon as you start seeing how crap a firm is in every newspaper daily and their share price lies battered on the floor as investors rush for the door, that is when the smart money quietly buys. BA's tough ride is not yet over I will not be buying yet.
But for Remember "BA's ongoing focus on cash conservation resulted in a closing cash balance of £1,219 million; the largest year-end balance since privatisation. Cash burn in the fourth quarter was zero." More property disposals to come, as well as DBA and a hefty credit line in the billions.
The tremendous growth of low cost will be difficult to maintain, the market is only so big in Europe. Outside of Europe how fast can he expand and at what cost ? Why Do you think Stelios is buying GO and others at such a high price (3 times Go's value last year)? It couldn't be because a merger was the only way such a majority share holder in Easyjet could cash out 100mill pounds worth of shares without causing a collapse in his own share price ? No that would only be cynical of me....or maybe just contrarian.
This is not to say that the tide is already turning, but turn it will. Easyjet, Ryanair, BA all have their niche to fill like it or not. If regulators eventually free BA management to merge like they intend, they will also one day be part of something even bigger. I will be happy for anyone to re-post this statement 2-3years down the road and laugh at how silly I was.
By the time you know it's a band-wagon, it's already too late.
BA is not as bad off as many Nigel haters would like to believe, or as bad as they perpetuate themselves. And the smaller firms are not as strong as they would like to make you believe. Have you ever heard of Contrarian Investing. As soon as you start seeing how crap a firm is in every newspaper daily and their share price lies battered on the floor as investors rush for the door, that is when the smart money quietly buys. BA's tough ride is not yet over I will not be buying yet.
But for Remember "BA's ongoing focus on cash conservation resulted in a closing cash balance of £1,219 million; the largest year-end balance since privatisation. Cash burn in the fourth quarter was zero." More property disposals to come, as well as DBA and a hefty credit line in the billions.
The tremendous growth of low cost will be difficult to maintain, the market is only so big in Europe. Outside of Europe how fast can he expand and at what cost ? Why Do you think Stelios is buying GO and others at such a high price (3 times Go's value last year)? It couldn't be because a merger was the only way such a majority share holder in Easyjet could cash out 100mill pounds worth of shares without causing a collapse in his own share price ? No that would only be cynical of me....or maybe just contrarian.
This is not to say that the tide is already turning, but turn it will. Easyjet, Ryanair, BA all have their niche to fill like it or not. If regulators eventually free BA management to merge like they intend, they will also one day be part of something even bigger. I will be happy for anyone to re-post this statement 2-3years down the road and laugh at how silly I was.
By the time you know it's a band-wagon, it's already too late.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
But didn't Easy carry more passengers in Europe last year than BA? What's the profit per manager at BA compared to Easy / Ryan?
It's difficult to make like for like comparisons because BA is not just a shorthaul airline - but I'd guess that they're still being punished by the LoCo's. Easy loadfactor 87%.
Easy's share price is way down - that's a fact (oversold in my opinion and a good buying opportunity!). It still looks like they're going to announce £60 million profit this year despite being in a vicious price war with Ryan and other start ups. This price war is going to continue for sometime (18 months?) but I imagine that Easy is well placed to survive and if it does then it will be in an incredibly strong position to become, possibly, THE leading shorthaul carrier in Europe.
I don't wish ill on anyone but after BA's recent fiascos with checkin staff, and the associated national press coverage, they still have significant problems.
Fly Safe.
A4
It's difficult to make like for like comparisons because BA is not just a shorthaul airline - but I'd guess that they're still being punished by the LoCo's. Easy loadfactor 87%.
Easy's share price is way down - that's a fact (oversold in my opinion and a good buying opportunity!). It still looks like they're going to announce £60 million profit this year despite being in a vicious price war with Ryan and other start ups. This price war is going to continue for sometime (18 months?) but I imagine that Easy is well placed to survive and if it does then it will be in an incredibly strong position to become, possibly, THE leading shorthaul carrier in Europe.
I don't wish ill on anyone but after BA's recent fiascos with checkin staff, and the associated national press coverage, they still have significant problems.
Fly Safe.
A4
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Some of the 'GB pilots' here seem a little confused, I know you loved it but GB stopped flying its last 737, what about 9 months ago. It still comes to LGW, only now its a BMIbaby... All Airbus now, 3 321's and 10 320's. One more 321 in March-ish and another the year after and the third the year after that - IF Manch goes well.
Thanks airrage for dragging this one out of the archives....well worth another read! I particularly liked this post from Suggs...
What a difference 2 years make, eh
GB won't be here in two years, it will be brought within the BA fold, Gb's will go to the bottom of the seniority list, you will nolonger make a profit. BA are short of pilots so I cannot see anyone going to GB. GB Capitanos to moan as much as the Dan Air Boys, what a waste of a pound!!
