British Airways
I am entirely in agreement from my own experience that centralised remote deicing appears a superior method of operation compared with on-stand deicing. There may still be queues at the deicing area but it means by definition that aircraft have vacated their stands. Also the route of the deicing trucks is simplified to and from the fluid storage facility rather than have to continually reposition to different stands. Some airports also used fixed gantries and supplement them with deicer trucks.
Location might be an issue at LHR but I suspect if the determination was there a way would be found. I cant help thinking the T5 development was a lost opportunity in this respect and this appears to apply to the ongoing Central Area redevelopment.
Location might be an issue at LHR but I suspect if the determination was there a way would be found. I cant help thinking the T5 development was a lost opportunity in this respect and this appears to apply to the ongoing Central Area redevelopment.
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Tales of woe on the news last night!!
Angry passengers complaining about lack of staff, sitting on aircraft for many hours, nobody seems to know what's going on.
Sound familiar but, hey, this is Helsinki and they get this weather all the time.
Interestingly most of the cancellations were Finnair, the domestic and European program was decimated - sound familiar.
Helsinki has, relative to LHR, unlimited expansion possibilities - you want more runways, more stands, more terminals, more deicing facilities - take your chain saw and cut a few thousand more trees.
Unfortunately the trees around LHR tend to be built of brick and have people living in them!!
There is no night curfew and, I suspect, despite it's 3 runways the no. Of movements per day is somewhat fewer than LHR.
Angry passengers complaining about lack of staff, sitting on aircraft for many hours, nobody seems to know what's going on.
Sound familiar but, hey, this is Helsinki and they get this weather all the time.
Interestingly most of the cancellations were Finnair, the domestic and European program was decimated - sound familiar.
Helsinki has, relative to LHR, unlimited expansion possibilities - you want more runways, more stands, more terminals, more deicing facilities - take your chain saw and cut a few thousand more trees.
Unfortunately the trees around LHR tend to be built of brick and have people living in them!!
There is no night curfew and, I suspect, despite it's 3 runways the no. Of movements per day is somewhat fewer than LHR.
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Heathrow already has dedicated remote de-icing areas. Whether they use them or not is another matter.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2017-09-14.pdf
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2017-09-14.pdf
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Finncapt
2016 numbers:
#1 in Europe (by pax numbers) LHR 75.7m
#29 in Europe HEL 17.2m
2016 Movements:
LHR 475k, HEL 165k.
So yes, just a tad quieter
2016 numbers:
#1 in Europe (by pax numbers) LHR 75.7m
#29 in Europe HEL 17.2m
2016 Movements:
LHR 475k, HEL 165k.
So yes, just a tad quieter
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Back to the remote deicing facilities.
I think Hel has about 8 at each of the thresholds of 04R and 22R so say 16 in total.
No doubt someone knows the exact figure.
Now from the above figures LHR has approx 3 times the no. of movements.
By my reckoning LHR would need about 3 x 16, say 40 to be kind, remote deicing stands, 20 at each threshold, to offer a similar service.
That is a fair bit of real estate and associated taxiways.
As a point of interest.
According to the tv this morning there is chaos at the airport, there were not enough hotel rooms last night and the people are very angry at the lack of staff and information.
But, hey, this is Finland, it is not like it doesn't happen often!!
I have come to the conclusion that, wherever you are, the weather is unbeatable sometimes!!
I think Hel has about 8 at each of the thresholds of 04R and 22R so say 16 in total.
No doubt someone knows the exact figure.
Now from the above figures LHR has approx 3 times the no. of movements.
By my reckoning LHR would need about 3 x 16, say 40 to be kind, remote deicing stands, 20 at each threshold, to offer a similar service.
That is a fair bit of real estate and associated taxiways.
As a point of interest.
According to the tv this morning there is chaos at the airport, there were not enough hotel rooms last night and the people are very angry at the lack of staff and information.
But, hey, this is Finland, it is not like it doesn't happen often!!
I have come to the conclusion that, wherever you are, the weather is unbeatable sometimes!!
Heathrow already has dedicated remote de-icing areas. Whether they use them or not is another matter.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2017-09-14.pdf
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2017-09-14.pdf
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Why do we keep blaming HAL ?
This isn't a Heathrow problem!
Th problem was with BA and the organisation.
Let's not have all this world class British Company nonesense if error after error continues to blight the company.
They are supposed to be our "show piece" airline.
This isn't a Heathrow problem!
Th problem was with BA and the organisation.
Let's not have all this world class British Company nonesense if error after error continues to blight the company.
They are supposed to be our "show piece" airline.
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I must disagree.
The UK really needs a green field site airport, near the capital, with plenty of space for expansion.
Sadly successive governments haven't grasped the nettle and got on with it.
The UK really needs a green field site airport, near the capital, with plenty of space for expansion.
Sadly successive governments haven't grasped the nettle and got on with it.
I think Boris island these days is somewhere Mrs M will exile him too. St Helenas got an airport he can go there as governor.
FinnCapt. The problem with replacing LHR is that very few greenfield sites near the capital in London.
Those that look green on a map are
1 very hilly -not an ideal feature for airports
2 The very large one close to LHR to the west is a bit less hilly but belongs to Mrs Windsor the Queen and while in your neighbouring Nordics the royals might give up one of their numerous homes for an airport I don't see it happening in UK.
Remote sites with high speed rail cannot be used in Uk because the rail line planning takes even longer than airports and the train fare would be more than the plane fare most times.
So we are a bit stuck with dear old Heathrow which relatively speaking does have a decent piece of flat real estate right next to it only inhabited by working class people or foreigners neither of whom count in the British planning process. The problem is with the approaches which go over places populated by wealthy influential people who do count in the planning process. They are likely to object even though they live in West London because it is near to Heathrow.
Not much logic on infrastructure development in UK, we are not too bad at building it once started its getting the approval that takes literally a lifetime.
mid you Helsinki Vantaa has one useful feature in a world of air rage and unruly pax , it has a prison on site; is that right or an urban myth
FinnCapt. The problem with replacing LHR is that very few greenfield sites near the capital in London.
Those that look green on a map are
1 very hilly -not an ideal feature for airports
2 The very large one close to LHR to the west is a bit less hilly but belongs to Mrs Windsor the Queen and while in your neighbouring Nordics the royals might give up one of their numerous homes for an airport I don't see it happening in UK.
Remote sites with high speed rail cannot be used in Uk because the rail line planning takes even longer than airports and the train fare would be more than the plane fare most times.
So we are a bit stuck with dear old Heathrow which relatively speaking does have a decent piece of flat real estate right next to it only inhabited by working class people or foreigners neither of whom count in the British planning process. The problem is with the approaches which go over places populated by wealthy influential people who do count in the planning process. They are likely to object even though they live in West London because it is near to Heathrow.
Not much logic on infrastructure development in UK, we are not too bad at building it once started its getting the approval that takes literally a lifetime.
mid you Helsinki Vantaa has one useful feature in a world of air rage and unruly pax , it has a prison on site; is that right or an urban myth
Not only is there nowhere suitable in SE England for a large new airport, but the past history of the few major ones that have been built (Montreal Mirabel, Tokyo Narita, Osaka, etc) is that airlines are very resistive to use the places, particularly for short-haul, and knowing only too well their commercial markets (something that politicians ignore) will do anything to avoid using the place. And the passengers likewise. If you end up with a split site that kills all connections, as Montreal found out. In fact Mirabel was the making of Toronto as Canada's main gateway; before Mirabel Montreal had been, and a significant rationale for Montreal's commercial decline and Toronto's ascendancy was Mirabel (now closed).
Look at what happened in Dallas when DFW was opened, all the main carriers moved across from the old Love Field and little Southwest quickly built up an enormous business based on those who preferred not to go there. It now handles more flights that it ever used to before DFW opened. Meanwhile Prestwick markets itself as "Glasgow Prestwick". Hmmm, that doesn't seem to work.
Yes you could legally enforce the closure of Heathrow, but the political fallout from employees, property owners, frequent travellers and businesses who have developed all around it would make the 3rd runway issues trivia in comparison.
Such proposals commonly include a "high speed rail link" to one place in the old centre of the metropolitan area, generally which has no car parking, disregarding that very few originating passengers come from there or have any desire to go into the centre to come out again, and a notably small percentage of inbound pax as well.
The commercial advantage would lie with any carrier who managed to stay at Heathrow. So they all would want to.
Look at what happened in Dallas when DFW was opened, all the main carriers moved across from the old Love Field and little Southwest quickly built up an enormous business based on those who preferred not to go there. It now handles more flights that it ever used to before DFW opened. Meanwhile Prestwick markets itself as "Glasgow Prestwick". Hmmm, that doesn't seem to work.
Yes you could legally enforce the closure of Heathrow, but the political fallout from employees, property owners, frequent travellers and businesses who have developed all around it would make the 3rd runway issues trivia in comparison.
Such proposals commonly include a "high speed rail link" to one place in the old centre of the metropolitan area, generally which has no car parking, disregarding that very few originating passengers come from there or have any desire to go into the centre to come out again, and a notably small percentage of inbound pax as well.
The commercial advantage would lie with any carrier who managed to stay at Heathrow. So they all would want to.
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Which is EXACTLY why in the late 79s, Air Canada took HMG to the High Court when it was decided to move them out to........a pre Norman Foster era Stansted!
Hardly surprising that they've sunk to a new low. Perhaps Mr Cruz should take stock and start thinking about his customers for once instead of turning the carrier low cost with high fares.
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Any coincidence that 2 out of the bottom 3 have been or are being managed by Mr Cruz.
BA and Vuelling only Ryanair preventing them from hitting rock bottom.
At the moment though shareholders are happy as they get dividends and a return on their investment. The group are on track to record massive profits again this year. I think however that this will be the last time that they make the massive profits they have posted in previous years.
The vast majority of their revenue is generated on transatlantic traffic where up until recently the point to point competitors were relatively poor. AA UA and DL/VS.
DL and VS are starting to show signs of improvement with their joint business. All it needs now is to replace those clapped out 767s with something a little more modern and fuel efficient. UA starting a brand upgrade for their business class.
AA are just poor full stop.
With flights going east it's a no brainier the products and schedules are better on SQ CX along with the ME3 plus Turkish.
BA are reeping what they sewed 7 or 8 years ago. Did not invest in their products.
De skilled their staff. Extremely process driven no flexibility. Got rid of the majority of experienced staff, replacing them with cheap unskilled labour.
BA/IAG have become extremely greedy money money money.
For a once great company the race to the bottom has been breathtakingly rapid.
Once results drop off the city will abandon them just as quick.
It needs a change at the top....a refocus on customers and some decent products.
Not sure it is going to happen before the decline becomes irreversible if it's not already to late.
BA and Vuelling only Ryanair preventing them from hitting rock bottom.
At the moment though shareholders are happy as they get dividends and a return on their investment. The group are on track to record massive profits again this year. I think however that this will be the last time that they make the massive profits they have posted in previous years.
The vast majority of their revenue is generated on transatlantic traffic where up until recently the point to point competitors were relatively poor. AA UA and DL/VS.
DL and VS are starting to show signs of improvement with their joint business. All it needs now is to replace those clapped out 767s with something a little more modern and fuel efficient. UA starting a brand upgrade for their business class.
AA are just poor full stop.
With flights going east it's a no brainier the products and schedules are better on SQ CX along with the ME3 plus Turkish.
BA are reeping what they sewed 7 or 8 years ago. Did not invest in their products.
De skilled their staff. Extremely process driven no flexibility. Got rid of the majority of experienced staff, replacing them with cheap unskilled labour.
BA/IAG have become extremely greedy money money money.
For a once great company the race to the bottom has been breathtakingly rapid.
Once results drop off the city will abandon them just as quick.
It needs a change at the top....a refocus on customers and some decent products.
Not sure it is going to happen before the decline becomes irreversible if it's not already to late.
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Theoretically Alex Cruz should be in position to reconcile these different competing targets of different areas of the business. Enough said .....
Why do we keep blaming HAL ?
This isn't a Heathrow problem!
Th problem was with BA and the organisation.
Let's not have all this world class British Company nonesense if error after error continues to blight the company.
They are supposed to be our "show piece" airline.
This isn't a Heathrow problem!
Th problem was with BA and the organisation.
Let's not have all this world class British Company nonesense if error after error continues to blight the company.
They are supposed to be our "show piece" airline.
Quote:
The UK really needs a green field site airport, near the capital, with plenty of space for expansion.
I hear the idea for Boris Island is still being banded around somewhere...
The UK really needs a green field site airport, near the capital, with plenty of space for expansion.
I hear the idea for Boris Island is still being banded around somewhere...
So we are a bit stuck with dear old Heathrow which relatively speaking does have a decent piece of flat real estate right next to it only inhabited by working class people or foreigners neither of whom count in the British planning process.
If you end up with a split site that kills all connections, as Montreal found out. In fact Mirabel was the making of Toronto as Canada's main gateway; before Mirabel Montreal had been, and a significant rationale for Montreal's commercial decline and Toronto's ascendancy was Mirabel (now closed).
There was also the issue of the separatist Bloc Quebecois party running the government in Quebec and the endless banging on about "independence, the "neverendums" and the failure to stick to the day job of running the province properly (ring any bells, Nicola?). This is the main reason that Montreal was eclipsed by Toronto as Canada's main city, and there's been no going back.
Yes you could legally enforce the closure of Heathrow, but the political fallout from employees, property owners, frequent travellers and businesses who have developed all around it would make the 3rd runway issues trivia in comparison.
The commercial advantage would lie with any carrier who managed to stay at Heathrow. So they all would want to.
Any coincidence that 2 out of the bottom 3 have been or are being managed by Mr Cruz.
BA and Vuelling only Ryanair preventing them from hitting rock bottom.
BA and Vuelling only Ryanair preventing them from hitting rock bottom.
At the moment though shareholders are happy as they get dividends and a return on their investment. The group are on track to record massive profits again this year. I think however that this will be the last time that they make the massive profits they have posted in previous years.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 17th Dec 2017 at 17:14.