Bmi prefer BFS
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Costs and Safety
In the "good old days" - JEA paid a king's ransom to BCA for access as did BRAL. Figures being quoted were somewhere between £15 and £18 per dep pax. Gill paid around £6 per dep pax.
I don't know what Midland are paying at BCA now but I bet it's none of the above. Like him or loathe him, Mikey Bish has run a tight ship. He has survived where others failed. He didn't do this by being profligate with his expenses. He will have nailed the BCA boys to the floor and preserved his options elsewhere. The deal must have been good because for all the rhetoric of "it's dead easy on short runways" rubbish, size matters and I bet the bmi safety evaluation boys thought long and hard about the implcations before any move was made.
The question is however, is the deal so good that the benefits outweigh the risks? It must be.
However, notwithstanding the economics on the blustery day in question someone else was in the chair and said "I don't do windshear". Good on yer, mate.
In the "good old days" - JEA paid a king's ransom to BCA for access as did BRAL. Figures being quoted were somewhere between £15 and £18 per dep pax. Gill paid around £6 per dep pax.
I don't know what Midland are paying at BCA now but I bet it's none of the above. Like him or loathe him, Mikey Bish has run a tight ship. He has survived where others failed. He didn't do this by being profligate with his expenses. He will have nailed the BCA boys to the floor and preserved his options elsewhere. The deal must have been good because for all the rhetoric of "it's dead easy on short runways" rubbish, size matters and I bet the bmi safety evaluation boys thought long and hard about the implcations before any move was made.
The question is however, is the deal so good that the benefits outweigh the risks? It must be.
However, notwithstanding the economics on the blustery day in question someone else was in the chair and said "I don't do windshear". Good on yer, mate.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
First I would like to reiterate that this is primarily a professional pilots forum. Whilst readers and contributers from all walks of life on issues connected to our profession are welcome I advise anyone who tries to contribute and makes statements such as the one from 'Dudley' where they try to sound authorative but obviously have nothing to do with the operation of an airliner that they are not welcome.
Spotters who watch a/c trying to land at BHD in adverse weather conditions and then make immature comments such as "did they go around and divert because they were scared" or words to that effect are not welcome especially as they cause so much dissent by making others who wouldn't say such stupid things assume that it is another pilot passing judgement. No professional pilot that I know would make such a crass and ignorant remark and only goes to show that the red writing at the bottom of this and every page has to be noted.
Second, I have started a new forum for issues dealing with airports and routes and this thread is being moved there as will be any new ones that are promarily to do with subjects such as the one for this thread.
Spotters who watch a/c trying to land at BHD in adverse weather conditions and then make immature comments such as "did they go around and divert because they were scared" or words to that effect are not welcome especially as they cause so much dissent by making others who wouldn't say such stupid things assume that it is another pilot passing judgement. No professional pilot that I know would make such a crass and ignorant remark and only goes to show that the red writing at the bottom of this and every page has to be noted.
Second, I have started a new forum for issues dealing with airports and routes and this thread is being moved there as will be any new ones that are promarily to do with subjects such as the one for this thread.
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All right, I have been slagged off big time with my comments. But let me explain a bit more clearly what I meant...
First, none was my intention to criticize any decision to go-around. It is a Pilot's decision, and there is nothing wrong with it. Nowhere in my last posting I implied any un-professionalism from the crews concerned. As Controller Friendly pinpointed it,
- following all the threads about bmi moving to BHD,
- and the RW state,
- and the weather conditions which are sometimes encountered in this airport...
That some days might be more difficult for certain aircraft types than others, particularly if the crews are not familiar with the place. Maybe, the way I expressed it was a bit sarcastic, but that was my point.
Second, about the way I described the events and the vocabulary I used, once again I didn't try to slag off the crews, but tried to depict weather conditions which were challenging. I think on that one I was misunderstood. I agree that the vocabulary I used was maybe inappropriate on a forum read by all sorts of people, but once again, none was my intention to imply that the crews involved were not professional in their decisions to go-around and divert. It was some challenging weather conditions, but within limits of most aircrafts operated at this airport. Hence, not many diversions this particular day. Anybody who would have seen the airbus being ill-treated by the wind on short final, would have thought "wow", and the decision of the crew seemed to be very appropriate.
So once again, for those who felt offended by my comments, I would like to apologize, and in the future I'll try to avoid using certain words inappropriate on a professional pilot forum to make my points clearer.
(edited for spelling)
[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Dudley ]
First, none was my intention to criticize any decision to go-around. It is a Pilot's decision, and there is nothing wrong with it. Nowhere in my last posting I implied any un-professionalism from the crews concerned. As Controller Friendly pinpointed it,
- following all the threads about bmi moving to BHD,
- and the RW state,
- and the weather conditions which are sometimes encountered in this airport...
That some days might be more difficult for certain aircraft types than others, particularly if the crews are not familiar with the place. Maybe, the way I expressed it was a bit sarcastic, but that was my point.
Second, about the way I described the events and the vocabulary I used, once again I didn't try to slag off the crews, but tried to depict weather conditions which were challenging. I think on that one I was misunderstood. I agree that the vocabulary I used was maybe inappropriate on a forum read by all sorts of people, but once again, none was my intention to imply that the crews involved were not professional in their decisions to go-around and divert. It was some challenging weather conditions, but within limits of most aircrafts operated at this airport. Hence, not many diversions this particular day. Anybody who would have seen the airbus being ill-treated by the wind on short final, would have thought "wow", and the decision of the crew seemed to be very appropriate.
So once again, for those who felt offended by my comments, I would like to apologize, and in the future I'll try to avoid using certain words inappropriate on a professional pilot forum to make my points clearer.
(edited for spelling)
[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Dudley ]
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Dud
Something not very nice is happening to a lot of bmi guys on the 23rd Jan.
But the 13th Dec, well that will be a much better day altogether.
Gul & myself will be showing KIL the joys of toffee vodka, silly coloured drinks & how many bottles of bud i can get down my..... 
Well that remains to be seen!!
See y'all then, if you're brave enough
Something not very nice is happening to a lot of bmi guys on the 23rd Jan.
But the 13th Dec, well that will be a much better day altogether.
Gul & myself will be showing KIL the joys of toffee vodka, silly coloured drinks & how many bottles of bud i can get down my..... Well that remains to be seen!!
See y'all then, if you're brave enough
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Stop whining the lot of you, a couple of go arounds does not a bad airport make. Anyway, I remember days last winter when we lost more than 3 and/or had more than a few diversions from Muckamore Intl.
The Bishop signed up because Uncle Albert was screwing him over in favour of Sleezy and Go, what did you expect? I feel sorry for the few decent guys/gals at Muckamore who don't begrudge us good clearances and proper handovers just because we took Uncle Albert's Christmas bonus away!
It is a bit childish that a 321 has to level off at 3A because people like Gul have a large bag of fries on their shoulder about the whole thing, grow up!
PS Controller Friendly, try and lose your temper a bit more often and keep the rugrats quiet, they're disturbing my sleep!
Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!
The Bishop signed up because Uncle Albert was screwing him over in favour of Sleezy and Go, what did you expect? I feel sorry for the few decent guys/gals at Muckamore who don't begrudge us good clearances and proper handovers just because we took Uncle Albert's Christmas bonus away!
It is a bit childish that a 321 has to level off at 3A because people like Gul have a large bag of fries on their shoulder about the whole thing, grow up!
PS Controller Friendly, try and lose your temper a bit more often and keep the rugrats quiet, they're disturbing my sleep!
Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!
StandupfortheUlstermen
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And another thing, Dik, could you define "frequent windshear" for me. I can only remember 3 or 4 instances in the last few months where windshear has been reported. On the other hand however, since the wx encountered at BHD usually comes from the Northwest, does that also make it standard Muckamore Intl. wx, or has Muckamore shifted recently? It is unusual to say the least, for BHD to have 35kt winds from the SSE.
As for the idiotic comment about an inch of water on the runway (whoever came up with that drivel), someone out there obviously has a problem with his/her perception of depth cos we measure the depth at regular intervals for safety resons rather than the fun of seeing the ATSA getting drenched!
Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!
As for the idiotic comment about an inch of water on the runway (whoever came up with that drivel), someone out there obviously has a problem with his/her perception of depth cos we measure the depth at regular intervals for safety resons rather than the fun of seeing the ATSA getting drenched!
Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!
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Standard
No need to get personal about the whole thing As most peopleknow who we are, i don't think it's fair you having a go, as you have not ided yourself, mind you as one union rep to another, get you facts right first!!
For your info a standard clearance as per the AA Mats2 is 3A, if you get better than that then it's a bonus.
You also state the wrong MD as having the difference of opinion with bmi
As for loosing my temper, what happened was over a non-operational matter as you well know, from my point of view it was no big deal, so let's keep the less trivial matters in context and talk about the real issues, like beer?
No need to get personal about the whole thing
As most peopleknow who we are, i don't think it's fair you having a go, as you have not ided yourself, mind you as one union rep to another, get you facts right first!!For your info a standard clearance as per the AA Mats2 is 3A, if you get better than that then it's a bonus.
You also state the wrong MD as having the difference of opinion with bmi
As for loosing my temper, what happened was over a non-operational matter as you well know, from my point of view it was no big deal, so let's keep the less trivial matters in context and talk about the real issues, like beer?
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Sorry CF nothing like a good moan to purge the system, or is that a good.....
As for standard clearances, that may be so, but is it not incumbant on us to carry out our duties to the best of our abilities, rather than do as little as possible to get the job done. I just hate to see a big bird level off because someone is only willing to offer a minimum service (circumstances permitting of course). Another concern is the tendancy for some of your colleagues to drop their traffic to 3A south of Bangor, knowing something is ready/nearly ready to leap off 04, very frustrating as you well know. Does a 737 really need to be @3A over Bangor?How are we supposed to protect our missed app's in these circumstances? Answers on a postcard to......
As for Uncle Albert & co, sorry, couldn't remember the name of his predecessor, however, MD's are MD's - the names change, the job remains the same. On the subject of beer, "can't get enough of that wonderful Duff!" as my hero would say, but I was on earlys last week and couldn't make it, another time perhaps.
As for standard clearances, that may be so, but is it not incumbant on us to carry out our duties to the best of our abilities, rather than do as little as possible to get the job done. I just hate to see a big bird level off because someone is only willing to offer a minimum service (circumstances permitting of course). Another concern is the tendancy for some of your colleagues to drop their traffic to 3A south of Bangor, knowing something is ready/nearly ready to leap off 04, very frustrating as you well know. Does a 737 really need to be @3A over Bangor?How are we supposed to protect our missed app's in these circumstances? Answers on a postcard to......
As for Uncle Albert & co, sorry, couldn't remember the name of his predecessor, however, MD's are MD's - the names change, the job remains the same. On the subject of beer, "can't get enough of that wonderful Duff!" as my hero would say, but I was on earlys last week and couldn't make it, another time perhaps.
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Surely you`re not implying some AA controllers are dropping traffic through the Belfast City CTA over Ards without co-ordination 
You`ll be telling me next you can`t get the Box for two Gazelles over the city at 3A
You`ll be telling me next you can`t get the Box for two Gazelles over the city at 3A
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Perish the thought old bean, perish the thought. But let's not get this out of all proportion, I'm only talking about the few, not the many.
Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!
Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!
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Hi Alistair..Hi Colin!! lets stick to standard procedures! 3a is all you can expect! The Box is to you with 2 aircraft at three!And under what circumstances would you expect me to delay MY traffic (already in the air and flying)for the potential departure off 04?? !
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: gul dukat ]
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: gul dukat ]
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Gul - I think you are missing the point - surely the aim is not to delay ANY traffic no matter where they are coming from or going to. Is it to much to ask that when Muckamore is quiet ie. 0800 - 2100 that a higher level if available is given? No-one expects unrealistic clearances in a busy environment however Duffy 3A to a jet smacks of pettiness, especially when the first contact is 160 climb F110 and there is no conflicting traffic to be seen.
Some AA controllers are very good and will only restrict when necessary - yet others seem to take great delight in trying to frustrate the expeditious departure of traffic from "them down the road"
Surely it makes for a better atmosphere at both units when there is a good working relationship between everyone as opposed to a few here and there?
Some AA controllers are very good and will only restrict when necessary - yet others seem to take great delight in trying to frustrate the expeditious departure of traffic from "them down the road"
Surely it makes for a better atmosphere at both units when there is a good working relationship between everyone as opposed to a few here and there?