London Airports - Liverpool?
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London Airports - Liverpool?
Hello everyone, I would just like to ask a question about Flights between London and Liverpool.
Back in the early 2000's Easyjet used to operate Between London Luton and Liverpool, but having do some research they dropped the route due to Luton putting up the charges on this route, (Please correct me if wrong) even though the route had healthy loads.
Luton blasts easyJet for Liverpool decision - Telegraph
In the Middle part of 2007 VLM announced they would reduce the London City - Liverpool Route but as I am aware the route no longer exists, once VLM was taken over by Cityjet/Air France/KLM the route was subsquently axed.
VLM reduces Liverpool flights - Business Traveller
If anyone knows if Easyjet plan to re-instate their old route or if any other airline (Ryanair/Flybe?) have intrest in operating between London and Liverpool?
Apologies if asked before or mentioned in the Livepool Thread.
Malaysian28.
Back in the early 2000's Easyjet used to operate Between London Luton and Liverpool, but having do some research they dropped the route due to Luton putting up the charges on this route, (Please correct me if wrong) even though the route had healthy loads.
Luton blasts easyJet for Liverpool decision - Telegraph
In the Middle part of 2007 VLM announced they would reduce the London City - Liverpool Route but as I am aware the route no longer exists, once VLM was taken over by Cityjet/Air France/KLM the route was subsquently axed.
VLM reduces Liverpool flights - Business Traveller
If anyone knows if Easyjet plan to re-instate their old route or if any other airline (Ryanair/Flybe?) have intrest in operating between London and Liverpool?
Apologies if asked before or mentioned in the Livepool Thread.
Malaysian28.
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APD and the train probably means any LPL to London service is unlikely. The nearest option will soon be just BA from MAN - LHR & LGW which exists in the main to feed passengers into the long haul network. BD at MAN I suspect will soon be a thing of the past.
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@DDee737 I'd suggest if the route was started, the most likely destination would be Gatwick. For people living on that side of the city, it would save getting into London to get the train or driving around the M25 to use the motorway. Plus, if your origin/destination is Brighton or Crawley, it would make even more sense.
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There's always SEN...
But as Big Tudor says, the rail service is frequent and fast. IMHO there is no valid business case for a LPL-LON air service. (And if you want to argue for a service to Heathrow for connectivity, fair enough, but the opportunity cost of the LHR slots demolishes the business case there too.)
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I suspect that if Flybe operated a LGW-LPL service, it would be profitable. Obviously it wouldn't attract the numbers of BA's MAN service, but a great number of non-transfer passengers would be attracted and that could work very well indeed.
The only reasonable London area destination is Heathrow, for connections onto other carriers, to supplement the point-to-point traffic to the stage that such flights become worthwhile. And we all know how Heathrow slots for domestic flights have been whittled away to use them for more profitable intercontinental flights.
It is a significant issue for the UK regions that this connectivity has been lost. The only hope on the horizon is that, if the third runway at Heathrow is finally approved, a proportion of the additional slots that become availabe are ring-fenced for UK domestic services to Leeds, Inverness, Liverpool, etc.
It would surely get the support of many regional MPs to have their connections back. MPs in any event are very substanial users of domestic flights themselves.
The long-standing story that domestic flights are "unprofitable" is entirely dependent on the way that through fare revenue is attributed. If it becomes feasible for passengers to route Leeds-London-Los Angeles on BA instead of Leeds-Amsterdam-Los Angeles on KLM, BA will be supportive, even if they had to get FlyBe to paint up some Dash 8s in BA colours. Point-to-point in its own right (such as the Easy service from Liverpool to Luton), or just connecting in its own right (such as the KLM Liverpool to Amsterdam) are often not worthwhile, and so both have been lost. Put both traffics together on one aircraft and things change.
It is a significant issue for the UK regions that this connectivity has been lost. The only hope on the horizon is that, if the third runway at Heathrow is finally approved, a proportion of the additional slots that become availabe are ring-fenced for UK domestic services to Leeds, Inverness, Liverpool, etc.
It would surely get the support of many regional MPs to have their connections back. MPs in any event are very substanial users of domestic flights themselves.
The long-standing story that domestic flights are "unprofitable" is entirely dependent on the way that through fare revenue is attributed. If it becomes feasible for passengers to route Leeds-London-Los Angeles on BA instead of Leeds-Amsterdam-Los Angeles on KLM, BA will be supportive, even if they had to get FlyBe to paint up some Dash 8s in BA colours. Point-to-point in its own right (such as the Easy service from Liverpool to Luton), or just connecting in its own right (such as the KLM Liverpool to Amsterdam) are often not worthwhile, and so both have been lost. Put both traffics together on one aircraft and things change.
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Since Easyjet pulled their Luton route, rail connections between the two cities have improved dramatically. The introduction of hourly Pendolino trains slashed travel times between city centres from 2hrs45 to around 2hrs15. Combined with enhanced airport security post 2001, budget airlines can no longer compete with rail on speed alone. As walk up rail fares are £75 return (off peak), I doubt they'd be able to compete on cost either.
Could Liverpool court Lufthansa to begin a Heathrow rotation? KLM are pulling their Amsterdam route soon. This is currently Liverpools only full service/ interlining connection. It allowed them to boast of hundreds of international destinations which will soon be lost. Losing KLM is a big blow and I suspect that they will want to replace them ASAP. A LPL-LHR route would maintain links to the North West for Star Alliance partners based at Heathrow once the divorce from BMI is finalised. Unlikely I know but a possibility?
30 year old cliches eh!? Someone's witty and on the ball!
Could Liverpool court Lufthansa to begin a Heathrow rotation? KLM are pulling their Amsterdam route soon. This is currently Liverpools only full service/ interlining connection. It allowed them to boast of hundreds of international destinations which will soon be lost. Losing KLM is a big blow and I suspect that they will want to replace them ASAP. A LPL-LHR route would maintain links to the North West for Star Alliance partners based at Heathrow once the divorce from BMI is finalised. Unlikely I know but a possibility?
Perhaps operators were concerned about their air frames being left on bricks with their undercarriages removed
Last edited by Anansis; 23rd Mar 2012 at 21:35.
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Not convinced that LH would do LPL-LHR, maybe LPL-FRA i.e. to their hub, but if KL can't make LPL-AMS work......
Can't see any overseas EU carriers doing LPL-LHR at present, IF there was to be one, would except it to be EI (currently on LHR-BFS), but don't hold your breath.
Yes there is a good fast (weekday) hourly London-Liverpool train service which is fantastic for those travelling city-centre to city-centre. For others the 2h15 journey can become 4h15. Timewise, at 4 hours plus, air becomes a very viable alternative, it's the same as LHR-MAN. Like everything else, it's good to have alternatives, but the operators have to be able to make it pay. Regretably, at present they can't.
Can't see any overseas EU carriers doing LPL-LHR at present, IF there was to be one, would except it to be EI (currently on LHR-BFS), but don't hold your breath.
Yes there is a good fast (weekday) hourly London-Liverpool train service which is fantastic for those travelling city-centre to city-centre. For others the 2h15 journey can become 4h15. Timewise, at 4 hours plus, air becomes a very viable alternative, it's the same as LHR-MAN. Like everything else, it's good to have alternatives, but the operators have to be able to make it pay. Regretably, at present they can't.
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What can LPL realistically offer a full service carrier? It is hardly a full service airport. Transport links are very poor (from Wirral it is normally as quick to get to MAN), security has only just been modified to remove the cheap formica table setup, no air bridges, large part of the terminal is portacabin construction. It is a low cost airport for low cost carriers.
Last edited by Big Tudor; 23rd Mar 2012 at 23:28.
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Seemed to remember that BA had the same problem filling a Shorts 360 on the Liverpool/BFS route way back then too.
The route is still, after many years, the busiest none London domestic UK route with EZY operating.
The route is still, after many years, the busiest none London domestic UK route with EZY operating.
In 2009 (and mayne also 2010) Flybe operated a Leeds-Gatwick route. I don't have yield figures but the fact that the route is no more suggests it was not hugely profitable.
Leeds to London by train takes about the same amount of time as Liverpool-London anx has a similiar frequency. Further I imagine that there is more commerce and money floating around Leeds compared to Liverpool
If Leeds can't keep a London route what chance is there for Liverpool given its location near Manchester airport ?
Leeds to London by train takes about the same amount of time as Liverpool-London anx has a similiar frequency. Further I imagine that there is more commerce and money floating around Leeds compared to Liverpool
If Leeds can't keep a London route what chance is there for Liverpool given its location near Manchester airport ?
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Back in the 80's Genair operated Bandits, or was it Sheds, on the LGW/LPL/LGW route, difference these days is that people don't want to pay a commuter airline fare, they expect Airbus/Boeing LoCo fares but such routes don't support such sizes of aircraft.
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Many thanks, too everyone who replied,
Off course how silly for me to forget Britians Extensive Rail Network, I suppose once HS2 is complete, a connection by air between London and Liverpool will be Zilch I guess.
sadly I don't drive and I don't particularly like coaches/buses. So as British Rail put it "let the train take the strain" for the time.
I've done LHR/LGW - MAN with the 50-60 min train journey from Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime St, this is not much quicker than the train direct from London Euston, even with BA/BD offering 30/35 min check-in.
I also didn't consider other factors such as APD, but it has been an interesting discussion.
Malaysian28
Off course how silly for me to forget Britians Extensive Rail Network, I suppose once HS2 is complete, a connection by air between London and Liverpool will be Zilch I guess.
sadly I don't drive and I don't particularly like coaches/buses. So as British Rail put it "let the train take the strain" for the time.
I've done LHR/LGW - MAN with the 50-60 min train journey from Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime St, this is not much quicker than the train direct from London Euston, even with BA/BD offering 30/35 min check-in.
I also didn't consider other factors such as APD, but it has been an interesting discussion.
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It's beyond me why anyone would want to travel by air to London (if you're going to the city center, that is).
Granted there's no low-costs from MAN-LON, but if Easyjet etc were to restart LPL-LON then I can't see loads being decent at all.
As said many times, it's probably quicker to train it dahn sarf and you've also got to take into consideration luggage etc. Flights alone would be more expensive than the train, nevermind adding a bag to that too.
Granted there's no low-costs from MAN-LON, but if Easyjet etc were to restart LPL-LON then I can't see loads being decent at all.
As said many times, it's probably quicker to train it dahn sarf and you've also got to take into consideration luggage etc. Flights alone would be more expensive than the train, nevermind adding a bag to that too.
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Obviously from Liverpool (or Leeds) centre to London centre the much-improved train is a no-brainer. However, it is always good to have choice and with congested roads and the railways near capacity, an air alternative is desirable. A high proportion of pax are not centre to centre.
Regretably, thin domestic routes to/from London or the Thames Valley
may only be viable if they can combine commuter and feeder functions, which means thay would have to be to/from LHR, perhaps code-sharing with BA-BD and/or VS. Without LHR expansion it ain't going to happen.
It is being suggested in some quarters that south-east airport capacity issues could be partly addressed by reintroducing civil aviation at NHT, with a high speed link to LHR, and a 17-minute Chiltern line train journey to London from a NHT airport station. That being the case, thin domestic routes operating to/from NHT could combine commuter and feeder functions and may become viable. As always, carriers would have to see business potential.
With a higher proportion of "carry-on-baggage-only" pax than on overseas flights, there could be room for belly cargo on these thin domestic routes, providing a little relief to the roads (it all helps).
Obviously, the toxic issue of APD would have to be addressed, so don't don't hold your breath. However, it's still good to be a little contrarian, someone has to think outside of the box!
Regretably, thin domestic routes to/from London or the Thames Valley
may only be viable if they can combine commuter and feeder functions, which means thay would have to be to/from LHR, perhaps code-sharing with BA-BD and/or VS. Without LHR expansion it ain't going to happen.
It is being suggested in some quarters that south-east airport capacity issues could be partly addressed by reintroducing civil aviation at NHT, with a high speed link to LHR, and a 17-minute Chiltern line train journey to London from a NHT airport station. That being the case, thin domestic routes operating to/from NHT could combine commuter and feeder functions and may become viable. As always, carriers would have to see business potential.
With a higher proportion of "carry-on-baggage-only" pax than on overseas flights, there could be room for belly cargo on these thin domestic routes, providing a little relief to the roads (it all helps).
Obviously, the toxic issue of APD would have to be addressed, so don't don't hold your breath. However, it's still good to be a little contrarian, someone has to think outside of the box!
