Thomas Cook financial woes
As neil 2008 says, who needs a travel agent these days for anything other than a specialized trip such as an African safari or trekking in the Himalayas ?
A week in Spain was exotic back in the 1970s, now it isn't even worth mentioning down the pub. Anybody can book a "ham, cheese and tomato" holiday on easyJet or Ryanair, hotel, insurance and car hire added with a couple of mouse clicks.
I've just enjoyed a 5* hotel in Bangkok with breakfast for two at only GBP57 night. Booked through agoda.com: Discount Hotel Reservations Worldwide - Smarter Hotel Booking! with a 45% last minute discount.
I'm looking at a longer trip next year and Cheap Flights - Compare Airline Tickets with Skyscanner.com shows me the options, perhaps a connecting flight rather than a direct one is worth a GBP300 saving, pay GBP50 more and a far better airline is available Airline Reviews | Airport Reviews | Seat Reviews | Airline Ranking gives me a idea of who to avoid btw Thomas Cook are pretty ordinary Thomas Cook Airlines Customer Reviews | SKYTRAX
Travel agents are going the same way as film cameras, CD shops and book shops. Anyone here remember Butlins ?
A week in Spain was exotic back in the 1970s, now it isn't even worth mentioning down the pub. Anybody can book a "ham, cheese and tomato" holiday on easyJet or Ryanair, hotel, insurance and car hire added with a couple of mouse clicks.
I've just enjoyed a 5* hotel in Bangkok with breakfast for two at only GBP57 night. Booked through agoda.com: Discount Hotel Reservations Worldwide - Smarter Hotel Booking! with a 45% last minute discount.
I'm looking at a longer trip next year and Cheap Flights - Compare Airline Tickets with Skyscanner.com shows me the options, perhaps a connecting flight rather than a direct one is worth a GBP300 saving, pay GBP50 more and a far better airline is available Airline Reviews | Airport Reviews | Seat Reviews | Airline Ranking gives me a idea of who to avoid btw Thomas Cook are pretty ordinary Thomas Cook Airlines Customer Reviews | SKYTRAX
Travel agents are going the same way as film cameras, CD shops and book shops. Anyone here remember Butlins ?
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MP for Peterborough brought up the subject today at PMQ's Cameron informed him the matter is being looked at as T. Cook is a long standing, well respected tour operator.
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Anyone here remember Butlins ?
Anyone for an Abba tribute band weekend in Skeggy in December?
It might not be to your taste, but events like this are sold out. And as long as that damned flight tax and unfriendly exchange rates continue, they may be so for a long time to come!
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Debts
I am at a loss here so please could one of you finance people explain how a company that is 900m in debt with few visible assetts and a record of loss ever hope to pay back the debt or service the interest payments.
Surely the best that can be hoped for is to sell what assetts are movable, cut the losses and shut down the operation in a controlled manner
Surely the best that can be hoped for is to sell what assetts are movable, cut the losses and shut down the operation in a controlled manner
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A quick look at the UK CAA's G-info website appears to show that Thomas Cook owns 36 aircraft.
They would appear to own 36 aircraft, including three B767's, five A-330's, five A320's, four A321's, and seventeen B757's.
I couldnt find anything on their B737's.
They would appear to own 36 aircraft, including three B767's, five A-330's, five A320's, four A321's, and seventeen B757's.
I couldnt find anything on their B737's.
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However I dont think you can blame the media for all the hype. The acting CEO was even saying yesterday you are covered by ATOL and suggest you take out travel insurance if flight only. Dose not give confidence either.
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Thanks to the wave of very negative reporting in the press its clear what going to happen all those people who were thinking of booking with TCX will now be looking at TUI Cosmos ETC instead
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Can someone answer this.
Anyone remember when MyTravel found a 50M black hole in their accounts and ended up being 900 odd million in debt, it was about 8/9yrs ago around this time of year too when the company was saved by the banks.
What the hell has happened to be back in a similar position again. What i can never understand is that after being in business for so many years, wheres the money !!!
I for one hope cook does pull through this but with the current state of the banks, will they chuck more money at a company that doesn't appear to have got out of its debts all those years ago or will they force cook to break up the business and sell it off.
Maybe someone can explain in more detail.
Anyone remember when MyTravel found a 50M black hole in their accounts and ended up being 900 odd million in debt, it was about 8/9yrs ago around this time of year too when the company was saved by the banks.
What the hell has happened to be back in a similar position again. What i can never understand is that after being in business for so many years, wheres the money !!!
I for one hope cook does pull through this but with the current state of the banks, will they chuck more money at a company that doesn't appear to have got out of its debts all those years ago or will they force cook to break up the business and sell it off.
Maybe someone can explain in more detail.
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Guys the discussion on the woes of TCX are all very interesting and of course my thoughts are with the guys an girls that work for the second pillar of the leisure travel industry.
In my opinion I think you are assuming alot and over estimating the appetite of the general UK or European public to 'self-package' on their primary holiday. For Weekends/short breaks that's fine but for the two weeks in the summer most still go for the package - it IS generally better value.
Those of you who have discovered that 5 star hotel in Bangkok for $57 per night or fancy your 2 weeks in a secluded greek villa that you get off a mate for nothing - I have to say - are in the minority when you look at the stats. In fact that greek villa on samos that you get for tuppence? How would get there if not with the either TCX or TOM?
Take the Sharm route for example: a great case study in the neich that the package tour still holds and does extremely well.
Until 2005 only big charters operated on the route feeding tourists to the packaged(and odd diver on a seat only) to the resorts in Sharm. GB Airways started offering the upmarket BA service once a week. Continued today as Easyjet it caters for the seat only clientel and self packagers - one aircraft with a very low utilisation rate and infact operating contrary to the low cost model by flying for longer than 3hrs.
BA started a 777 from LGW in 2009 twice a week with club world etc... it fell flat on its face. Why? Because it didn't have the onward sales of the hotels and there was simply not enough traffic density the support the aircraft on its cost basis.
Today Thomson operate about 50 services a week to Sharm el sheikh from around 13 UK airports. For Thomson alone it represents a huge market with almost daily flights to MAN and LGW. Most are packaged but with a service density like that it can offer more timings and holiday durations than any scheduled/low-co can. Its also building premium exclusive resorts for its customers differentiating itself from the mass market (which it still embraces but just not entirely).
Not to mention protection for uncertainties just as what we are seeing now with TCX. Have you forgotten Excel? The public outcry from individuals who had given self-packaging at go and got seriously let down.
Package holidays are perceived to be old fashioned, uncool, trashy and little bit naff. In some respects they are but they still represent extremely good value for the 2.4 Children families that make up the bulk of the UK customer base. I'm not saying they'll do for all as it once was but not everyone is an adventurer and most people today are savvy enough to look on the net do the math and yet still end up with a package. And the numbers seem to stack up to support that - £13bn revenue and over £400million profit in 2010 for TUI.
So whilst TCX is in trouble - in my opinion because of mis-management - The package holiday isn't dead - it's just changing shape and unfortunately for TCX they haven't changed fast enough.
In my opinion I think you are assuming alot and over estimating the appetite of the general UK or European public to 'self-package' on their primary holiday. For Weekends/short breaks that's fine but for the two weeks in the summer most still go for the package - it IS generally better value.
Those of you who have discovered that 5 star hotel in Bangkok for $57 per night or fancy your 2 weeks in a secluded greek villa that you get off a mate for nothing - I have to say - are in the minority when you look at the stats. In fact that greek villa on samos that you get for tuppence? How would get there if not with the either TCX or TOM?
Take the Sharm route for example: a great case study in the neich that the package tour still holds and does extremely well.
Until 2005 only big charters operated on the route feeding tourists to the packaged(and odd diver on a seat only) to the resorts in Sharm. GB Airways started offering the upmarket BA service once a week. Continued today as Easyjet it caters for the seat only clientel and self packagers - one aircraft with a very low utilisation rate and infact operating contrary to the low cost model by flying for longer than 3hrs.
BA started a 777 from LGW in 2009 twice a week with club world etc... it fell flat on its face. Why? Because it didn't have the onward sales of the hotels and there was simply not enough traffic density the support the aircraft on its cost basis.
Today Thomson operate about 50 services a week to Sharm el sheikh from around 13 UK airports. For Thomson alone it represents a huge market with almost daily flights to MAN and LGW. Most are packaged but with a service density like that it can offer more timings and holiday durations than any scheduled/low-co can. Its also building premium exclusive resorts for its customers differentiating itself from the mass market (which it still embraces but just not entirely).
Not to mention protection for uncertainties just as what we are seeing now with TCX. Have you forgotten Excel? The public outcry from individuals who had given self-packaging at go and got seriously let down.
Package holidays are perceived to be old fashioned, uncool, trashy and little bit naff. In some respects they are but they still represent extremely good value for the 2.4 Children families that make up the bulk of the UK customer base. I'm not saying they'll do for all as it once was but not everyone is an adventurer and most people today are savvy enough to look on the net do the math and yet still end up with a package. And the numbers seem to stack up to support that - £13bn revenue and over £400million profit in 2010 for TUI.
So whilst TCX is in trouble - in my opinion because of mis-management - The package holiday isn't dead - it's just changing shape and unfortunately for TCX they haven't changed fast enough.
Last edited by World of Tweed; 24th Nov 2011 at 10:15.
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I'm sure TC knew what effect this announcement would have on the day to day income of the business - so you can bet they have been working like crazy behind the scenes for months to sort out funding before they were forced to make this statement.
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I tend to self package on other sites, then give TCX a call and they at usually able to do the same flights, hotels etc and on the phone have often price matched and it included protection. I've done that a number of times recently, even though I never flew a TCX plane on them. I've flown TCX twice in the past to Catania, wonderful experience and great people.
But I think I'm not the only one preferring the protection these days. One three things gained in a hurry - babies, black eyes and ruined holidays.
But I think I'm not the only one preferring the protection these days. One three things gained in a hurry - babies, black eyes and ruined holidays.
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Eventually merging with JMC to form TCX
A quick look at the UK CAA's G-info website appears to show that Thomas Cook owns 36 aircraft.
They would appear to own 36 aircraft, including three B767's, five A-330's, five A320's, four A321's, and seventeen B757's.
I couldnt find anything on their B737's.
They would appear to own 36 aircraft, including three B767's, five A-330's, five A320's, four A321's, and seventeen B757's.
I couldnt find anything on their B737's.
TCX don't own all of them A|C, the majority are leased.
The package holiday may not be dead, but it does not appear to be a very attractive business. Thomas Cook is a company on the ropes. I would be very surprised if the banks close them down as that would reduce the residual value of the business even more.
The accountants appear to have said that they could not sign off that the company was a going concern in its present form. Expect an orderly disposal of what can be sold. Condor would look like a prime candidate. But what is it worth without the german tour operating business feeding it?
The accountants appear to have said that they could not sign off that the company was a going concern in its present form. Expect an orderly disposal of what can be sold. Condor would look like a prime candidate. But what is it worth without the german tour operating business feeding it?
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Dear Rumaaair999
When did they pay 15 and 20% commission, take the rose tinted glasses off and live in the real world.
Clearly you do not have to deal with some of the idiotic replies we have to endure time and time again from staff who either can not be bothered to reply correctly to a situation or plainly cant read the complaint.
At the end of the day some even 18 months down the line we still await a correct reply to complaints, with clients who have paid good money for a service they do not receive, then have the audasity to make a complaint to TC, who, in some way have they not in part paid for staffs wages by booking and paying for a holiday with them.
We have evetion where whilst we are still fighting for a reply,TC have advised ABTA its all sorted, what planed are these people on.
Yes I do have some sympathy for the few staff who know and do the job professionally, unfortuatly from experience they are the minority rather than the norm. We are forever getting told its our fauld that they have not procided the holiday as booked and paid for. How, all we have done is provide them with customers. like the retail trade have done for years, then TC Managemnet see fit to cut commissions yet again but expect us to do more admin and work for less. whilst their own staff it appears get away with no more than murder.
Clearly you either work for them or do not have to deal with the idiotic replies and stupit situations we do, caused by obviously staff who care not a penny
When did they pay 15 and 20% commission, take the rose tinted glasses off and live in the real world.
Clearly you do not have to deal with some of the idiotic replies we have to endure time and time again from staff who either can not be bothered to reply correctly to a situation or plainly cant read the complaint.
At the end of the day some even 18 months down the line we still await a correct reply to complaints, with clients who have paid good money for a service they do not receive, then have the audasity to make a complaint to TC, who, in some way have they not in part paid for staffs wages by booking and paying for a holiday with them.
We have evetion where whilst we are still fighting for a reply,TC have advised ABTA its all sorted, what planed are these people on.
Yes I do have some sympathy for the few staff who know and do the job professionally, unfortuatly from experience they are the minority rather than the norm. We are forever getting told its our fauld that they have not procided the holiday as booked and paid for. How, all we have done is provide them with customers. like the retail trade have done for years, then TC Managemnet see fit to cut commissions yet again but expect us to do more admin and work for less. whilst their own staff it appears get away with no more than murder.
Clearly you either work for them or do not have to deal with the idiotic replies and stupit situations we do, caused by obviously staff who care not a penny
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Bit of topic but IMO yeterdays newspaper headlines were shameful, one paper in particular was sounding like the company had already failed, do they not realise the very serious effect this will now have on next years bookings ? those headlines could very well have been the final nail for the company and the thousands of jobs that depend on it ..disgusting.
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You say that "most" pax with TCX suffer rudeness from the crew who, you suggest, couldn't give a flying f***. That's several million people you're talking about. Exactly what do you base this assertion on? Is it the questionaires that invariably praise the cabin crew for going the extra mile to sort out the screw-ups that seem part of every charter airline's operations? Is it the smiles and praise I witness almost everytime I watch the passengers disembark? Yes we have cock-ups. But for almost every one of them, its the crews who turn the disaster around. That's what cabin crew do.
You say that "most" pax with TCX suffer rudeness from the crew who, you suggest, couldn't give a flying f***. That's several million people you're talking about. Exactly what do you base this assertion on? Is it the questionaires that invariably praise the cabin crew for going the extra mile to sort out the screw-ups that seem part of every charter airline's operations? Is it the smiles and praise I witness almost everytime I watch the passengers disembark? Yes we have cock-ups. But for almost every one of them, its the crews who turn the disaster around. That's what cabin crew do.
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those headlines could very well have been the final nail for the company and the thousands of jobs that depend on it ..disgusting.
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You can view the same article on the travel trade press websites
Not the most encouraging and i believe that Ernst and Young have been brought in by the banks to help seek some kind of restructure !!
Not the most encouraging and i believe that Ernst and Young have been brought in by the banks to help seek some kind of restructure !!
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well if anyone was going to have an advert in bad taste it could only be Ryanair!!
It must be a worrying time for all the staff and I wish them well however the media hype must be driving potential customers to the competition in droves and that only makes a bad situation worse. I do fear for the future business.
Whilst the banks came to the rescue of Airtours when the black hole in their finances was discovered a decade ago the situation is completely different now we are in a credit squeeze and doubt those same banks would take the risk now.
I have also heard the 'too big to fail' argument. Well although not exactly the same but very similar, two words spring to mind PAN AM, airline of course, but also owned hotels, tour companies, travel agents. This was also a large travel group with a long history also.
It must be a worrying time for all the staff and I wish them well however the media hype must be driving potential customers to the competition in droves and that only makes a bad situation worse. I do fear for the future business.
Whilst the banks came to the rescue of Airtours when the black hole in their finances was discovered a decade ago the situation is completely different now we are in a credit squeeze and doubt those same banks would take the risk now.
I have also heard the 'too big to fail' argument. Well although not exactly the same but very similar, two words spring to mind PAN AM, airline of course, but also owned hotels, tour companies, travel agents. This was also a large travel group with a long history also.