Scilly Isles Route
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fairflyer, lengthening the existing runway will include in average a 10 m (33 ft) high landfill. Using only Google Earth as a land survey instrument, the orange area below has to filled out with compacked stone.
In addition to this three tunnels for the existing roads has to be built. The existing runway has to be widened from 23 m (75 ft) to 30 m (100 ft). 60 m (200 ft) wide safety zones to the east and west of the runway have to made (maxium slope angle for these are given by the autorities). And then there is the overrun safety zones at the ends of the runway, and for such small airports they now have to be 150 m (492 ft). The A3110 is border line to not crossing inside the overrun zone, but it has to be covered since it is angled relative to the runway centre line. In the south end (sea side) of the runway today's overrun zone isn't good enough and has to be corrected so that you don't end in the drink. These overrun zones can be shortened if EMAS (engineered materials arresting system) is used.
If there are no silt or clay and only a thin soil covering the bedrock, we are talking about between 700,000 and 800,000 metric tonnes stone masses for this landfill to fill the gully for a lengthened runway. This will mean a rather large quarry to get all that stone.
In addition to this three tunnels for the existing roads has to be built. The existing runway has to be widened from 23 m (75 ft) to 30 m (100 ft). 60 m (200 ft) wide safety zones to the east and west of the runway have to made (maxium slope angle for these are given by the autorities). And then there is the overrun safety zones at the ends of the runway, and for such small airports they now have to be 150 m (492 ft). The A3110 is border line to not crossing inside the overrun zone, but it has to be covered since it is angled relative to the runway centre line. In the south end (sea side) of the runway today's overrun zone isn't good enough and has to be corrected so that you don't end in the drink. These overrun zones can be shortened if EMAS (engineered materials arresting system) is used.
If there are no silt or clay and only a thin soil covering the bedrock, we are talking about between 700,000 and 800,000 metric tonnes stone masses for this landfill to fill the gully for a lengthened runway. This will mean a rather large quarry to get all that stone.
Last edited by LN-KGL; 6th Aug 2012 at 21:24.
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LN-KGL,
The Scillies are an area of natural beauty and, with all due respect, some of us prefer our green and pleasant land to remain green and pleasant and not to be concreted over UNECCESSARILY !!!!!
The Scillies are an area of natural beauty and, with all due respect, some of us prefer our green and pleasant land to remain green and pleasant and not to be concreted over UNECCESSARILY !!!!!
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Natural Beauty
Much as I love flying into these type of destinations, I agree, that the tourists should continue to arrive by chopper, and boat.
Keep the natural beauty, and lets not polute either by building a BIG airport, or by increasing the noise.
Glf
Keep the natural beauty, and lets not polute either by building a BIG airport, or by increasing the noise.
Glf
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Phileas Fogg and Gulfstreamaviator, my last post about lengthening the existing runway was to illustrate the madness to even concider do so.
I think it also was suggested to lengthen the runway to the south in to the sea, but then you have to struggle with water depths of more than 40 metres. The costs will be big, both for the purse and nature.
The last point this time: The aircraft types used today are among the noisiest used for passenger traffic today. With so few on board each aircraft, the exposure (the number of flights) is also very high. In other words, any change will reduce the noise levels.
I think it also was suggested to lengthen the runway to the south in to the sea, but then you have to struggle with water depths of more than 40 metres. The costs will be big, both for the purse and nature.
The last point this time: The aircraft types used today are among the noisiest used for passenger traffic today. With so few on board each aircraft, the exposure (the number of flights) is also very high. In other words, any change will reduce the noise levels.
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No but the Twotter, Islander and Trislander are a good deal noisier than the Dash 8 100/200 being suggested as a replacement. And while they are obviously less noisy than a 747 i'd happily bet they be worse off if the noise was measured as decibels per tonne or passenger! 
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That's ridiculous ... If we were measuring noise per seat then the noisiest aircraft would likely be single seater's!
I live on an island, the other side of the island from the airport so don't often see nor hear the twice weekly ATR72 but when we do it's a kindly reminder that we are connected to civilisation.
Do we complain about any noise it may make whilst it's bringing in the tourists that we're making money from? ..... Well go figure.
I live on an island, the other side of the island from the airport so don't often see nor hear the twice weekly ATR72 but when we do it's a kindly reminder that we are connected to civilisation.
Do we complain about any noise it may make whilst it's bringing in the tourists that we're making money from? ..... Well go figure.
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The fact is there are 80,000 odd passengers to be picked up by someone that are currently carried on the heli service. The immediate answer to me is to ramp up the number of rotations on Twotters and Islanders to plug the gap. If there are 80,000 pax for the taking then believe me someone will respond to the need. Everyone is going on about how 'old' they are but the fact is there are hundreds of Islands and mountain locked communtities that have aircraft like Twotters,Islanders,D228's and Let 410's as their link with the outside world. You start using aircraft above 19 seats and they come into the NASP and you have to have oodles of security kit and staff to handle a couple of Dash 8's a day and I can't see that being particularly cost efficient either.
TT
TT
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Surely the point of introducing larger aircraft would be to enable flights to other destinations, rather than simply to replace the helicopter and sky bus flights? With a dhc8 100 you could add connections to London and Manchester (perhaps with a tech stop at NQY outbound from ISC). Or is this the problem, that the islanders don't want to more connected to the outside world?
If a dhc8 operation was established, there are plenty of qualified crews in the south west.....
If a dhc8 operation was established, there are plenty of qualified crews in the south west.....
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ATP Al,
In the old days one could fly LON/ISC/LON with a connection via PLH, one could route from anywhere to LHR and/or LGW to fly to ISC via PLH ... and then a BRS/ISC service was added to serve those driving down the M5/M6 side of the country who didn't fancy the summer congestion of the Devon/Cornwall roads.
All that went when Brymon got rid of the Twotters. Since then PLH has gone, Land's End is not suitable, I don't think EXT would work because would need to carry round trip fuel EXT/ISC/EXT but then NQY has up country routes, all it might take is a BH2/DHC6 operator to set up in NQY and fix a schedule around the arriving and departing up country routes.
That said Brymon didn't make, indeed lose, their money on a sole ISC operation and I think any incoming operator might struggle to make ISC profitable on an all year basis.
In the old days one could fly LON/ISC/LON with a connection via PLH, one could route from anywhere to LHR and/or LGW to fly to ISC via PLH ... and then a BRS/ISC service was added to serve those driving down the M5/M6 side of the country who didn't fancy the summer congestion of the Devon/Cornwall roads.
All that went when Brymon got rid of the Twotters. Since then PLH has gone, Land's End is not suitable, I don't think EXT would work because would need to carry round trip fuel EXT/ISC/EXT but then NQY has up country routes, all it might take is a BH2/DHC6 operator to set up in NQY and fix a schedule around the arriving and departing up country routes.
That said Brymon didn't make, indeed lose, their money on a sole ISC operation and I think any incoming operator might struggle to make ISC profitable on an all year basis.
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I don't think the number of passengers heading to and from the Scilly Isles can sustain an Air Southwest version 2. With a 800 m long runway a DH8A will have weight restrictions and both LON and MAN will be too far afield for a direct flight.
So the analysis so far is that extending ISC to over 800m with modern overrun etc protections is physically impossible and would in any event present planning/conservation hurdles. Even if it were possible there are further security and logistical (handling, fuelling, transport to Hugh Town) problems with a/c in the 40seat category.
So the solution is likely to be a high frequency shuttle in a sub 20 seater.
The next problem is a mainland terminal. St Just has it's own problems, Newquay and Exeter are too far. A new 'drome, even small and with tight operating restrictions a la LCY, is going to get mired in planning.
How difficult would it be in planning, security and road access to use RNAS Culdrose?
So the solution is likely to be a high frequency shuttle in a sub 20 seater.
The next problem is a mainland terminal. St Just has it's own problems, Newquay and Exeter are too far. A new 'drome, even small and with tight operating restrictions a la LCY, is going to get mired in planning.
How difficult would it be in planning, security and road access to use RNAS Culdrose?
Last edited by Airbanda; 8th Aug 2012 at 11:05.
Revolutionary thought -
Why not replace the helicopter service with...
another helicopter service?
Can't St Just be improved to handle pax-carrying choppers?
Surely there are more economical helicopters available than 40-year old S-61s?
That would no doubt be cheaper than extending the runway at St Mary's - even if that were possible.
But what do I know?
Nothing, I hear you shout.
I'll get my coat.
Why not replace the helicopter service with...
another helicopter service?
Can't St Just be improved to handle pax-carrying choppers?
Surely there are more economical helicopters available than 40-year old S-61s?
That would no doubt be cheaper than extending the runway at St Mary's - even if that were possible.
But what do I know?
Nothing, I hear you shout.
I'll get my coat.
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LGS,
But Skybus own/operate St. Just airfield and they've already refused one chopper operator to operate from there ... they're keeping any opposition/competitor out of their little grass aerodrome!
Airbanda,
One problem with Culdrose, indeed Predannack airfield also, is that there is no railway and the roads become congested.
Redruth has a railway and the A30, there's always Portreath (Nancekuke) airfield ... but that's another story
But Skybus own/operate St. Just airfield and they've already refused one chopper operator to operate from there ... they're keeping any opposition/competitor out of their little grass aerodrome!
Airbanda,
One problem with Culdrose, indeed Predannack airfield also, is that there is no railway and the roads become congested.
Redruth has a railway and the A30, there's always Portreath (Nancekuke) airfield ... but that's another story
Last edited by Phileas Fogg; 8th Aug 2012 at 13:14.