Scilly Isles Route
Nothing at all surprising in your posts, on time, to those of us who live in Cornwall. Hope you have a nice holiday, but you don't have to travel all the way out to the Scillies to enjoy yourself.
Paxing All Over The World
I have to agree with on time all the time. For several years, a friend and I have been wanting to visit and the air fares are the stopper. The ferry is not an option for me, so it's fly or nothing. Thus far, it's nothing and no sign of change.
For 26 years, my mother lived on the IOM and I saw the prices slowly come down but still high per mile. Eventually, the did manage to expand Ronaldsway but the costs of making a short notice trip to see became unsustainable for us.
Incidentally, I read in the thread about the possibility of splitting the Steamship Company? Problem there would be that one company can use one set of back office people for admin, IT and so on - if you have two companies that means two lots of back office and that means two lots of costs for the pax to pay. I sit to be corrected.
If your Council does not want more tourists, they are suceeding!
For 26 years, my mother lived on the IOM and I saw the prices slowly come down but still high per mile. Eventually, the did manage to expand Ronaldsway but the costs of making a short notice trip to see became unsustainable for us.
Incidentally, I read in the thread about the possibility of splitting the Steamship Company? Problem there would be that one company can use one set of back office people for admin, IT and so on - if you have two companies that means two lots of back office and that means two lots of costs for the pax to pay. I sit to be corrected.
If your Council does not want more tourists, they are suceeding!
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Nobody's going to compete with Skybus on ISC routes as the volumes have been falling for many years anyway - it's not like they've been flooded out and have all their seats full, all the time. However, another hypothetical contender would be Aurigny which as a Trislander operator might be rather more suitable... however their fleet is, like Loganair's, already otherwise engaged.
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Scilly Isles Route
What about a dash 8-100 like those used on some Nordic short runways ? . Maybe if it was extended toward the sea . Wasn't Madeira extended over the sea ?
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LN-KGL is talking sense - it's really up to the islanders
as I see it the real problem is that you have a largish village of 2000 people which, together with tourism, generates circa 140,000 passenger trips a year that wants an air service
that is probably enough for someone to make a living providing an air service but only if they all use the same route. Right now you can think of it as a single point at one end of the network and many source points for the passengers - Cornwall, Exeter, Bristol, London etc etc. Either you go for a very small Caravan/Islander type operation into Cornwall or something like a Dash 8 to Bristol or maybe LGW
In the long run I suspect the route will be charter only unless someone kicks in a big subsidy
as I see it the real problem is that you have a largish village of 2000 people which, together with tourism, generates circa 140,000 passenger trips a year that wants an air service
that is probably enough for someone to make a living providing an air service but only if they all use the same route. Right now you can think of it as a single point at one end of the network and many source points for the passengers - Cornwall, Exeter, Bristol, London etc etc. Either you go for a very small Caravan/Islander type operation into Cornwall or something like a Dash 8 to Bristol or maybe LGW
In the long run I suspect the route will be charter only unless someone kicks in a big subsidy
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Here is some information about the passenger traffic to the Scilly Isles
Souce: UK Airport Statistics | Aviation Intelligence | About the CAA
From the same souce We also learn that ISC had 3,260 passengers in January 2011 and 16,603 in August 2011. In other words it's 5 times as many passengers in August compared with January. From this it's easy to estimate the base line for the local use and with that also know that around 68,000 of 107,000 passengers at ISC are tourist visiting the islands. I guess it would have been the same share of tourists on the flights to Tresco.
Since someone above talked about Aurigny and their Trislanders. Aurigny is French word for the island Alderney. Alderney have around half the number of passengers as the St Marys and Tresco combined. Alderney is not as tourist dependent as the Scilly Isles - the ratio between summer and winter is only 2.4x (there are a number of larger airports on the mainland that have the same ratio as Alderney, but non as high as St Marys and Tresco).
Still there a lot of similarities between Alderney and the Scilly Isles, like population 2,400 vs 2,200, almost equally remote from the closest airport, only one airline company serving (from November for the Scilly Isles) ...
But there are also a number of differences, like the the runway ar ACI is both longer than 800 metres and oriented according to the prevailing wind directions, it is possible to lengthen the existing runway with ease, lower ticket prices for flights compared with ISC, ...
Souce: UK Airport Statistics | Aviation Intelligence | About the CAA
From the same souce We also learn that ISC had 3,260 passengers in January 2011 and 16,603 in August 2011. In other words it's 5 times as many passengers in August compared with January. From this it's easy to estimate the base line for the local use and with that also know that around 68,000 of 107,000 passengers at ISC are tourist visiting the islands. I guess it would have been the same share of tourists on the flights to Tresco.
Since someone above talked about Aurigny and their Trislanders. Aurigny is French word for the island Alderney. Alderney have around half the number of passengers as the St Marys and Tresco combined. Alderney is not as tourist dependent as the Scilly Isles - the ratio between summer and winter is only 2.4x (there are a number of larger airports on the mainland that have the same ratio as Alderney, but non as high as St Marys and Tresco).
Still there a lot of similarities between Alderney and the Scilly Isles, like population 2,400 vs 2,200, almost equally remote from the closest airport, only one airline company serving (from November for the Scilly Isles) ...
But there are also a number of differences, like the the runway ar ACI is both longer than 800 metres and oriented according to the prevailing wind directions, it is possible to lengthen the existing runway with ease, lower ticket prices for flights compared with ISC, ...
....would a BN3 get in and out of ISC? I don't think it has quite the STOL capabilities of the BN2?
Was down in West Cornwall a couple of weeks ago.....when you look at the location of the existing supermarkets in PZ, did BIH not think that Tesco's or Morrisons might object to Sainsburys wanting to build another store right between them?
Or, as others have said, maybe this is the excuse that BIH were looking for??
Was down in West Cornwall a couple of weeks ago.....when you look at the location of the existing supermarkets in PZ, did BIH not think that Tesco's or Morrisons might object to Sainsburys wanting to build another store right between them?
Or, as others have said, maybe this is the excuse that BIH were looking for??
Last edited by Wycombe; 6th Aug 2012 at 12:35.
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Let it not be missed that it was a Robert Maxwell owned BIH that took over the PZE operation from BA Choppers ... perhaps the modern day BIH has long since realised that there's little, if any, HONEST money to be made from the operation!
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The Trislander needs a 450 metre long runway to take off. Neither the Trislander nor the Islander is getting younger as time goes. Here is a 37 year old Trislander at Jersey taken in April.
Just remember to bring with you ear protection while flying these - last row seats below the third engine are extra noisy.
Just remember to bring with you ear protection while flying these - last row seats below the third engine are extra noisy.
Last edited by LN-KGL; 6th Aug 2012 at 13:05.
There has been talk of the Competition Commission getting involved in transport to/from Scilly.
BIH are leaving the market of their own accord. I have yet to see any suggestion of significantly foul play by Isles of Scilly Travel.
Thus, would the Competition Commission *really* view this as a matter of sufficient concern to be worthy of an investigation ? The length of any airstrip on Scilly alone is really a matter for the people of Scilly (and maybe the CAA or Conwall's local Govt) to decide, and not something on which the Competition Commission is qualified to give any recommendation
BIH are leaving the market of their own accord. I have yet to see any suggestion of significantly foul play by Isles of Scilly Travel.
Thus, would the Competition Commission *really* view this as a matter of sufficient concern to be worthy of an investigation ? The length of any airstrip on Scilly alone is really a matter for the people of Scilly (and maybe the CAA or Conwall's local Govt) to decide, and not something on which the Competition Commission is qualified to give any recommendation
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Well the DHC8 200/Q200 only went out of production 3 years ago, and the 100 did so just 2 years before. Would the 200 be a better option for IOS, I would have thought the more powerful engines vs the 100 would help it on very short runways!?
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Only hope to do something sensible is to extend the runway into the island (forget going out into the sea - phenominally expensive) - 600m simply is not enough for anything useful other than the Twin Otter.
However, who would pay? - is this part of the Cornwall Council portfolio or is it Duchy of Cornwall-owned land - i.e. are we going to ask Prince Charles to stump up the £1.5 to £2m or so costs to just add 300 or so metres to the runway? Who owns/leases those fields to the north and would the local authority move the road at the end to squeeze an extra 60 or so metres more? Could they get European EEC funding for such a prject, or at least a contribution?
To the first road you'll extend to about 800m licensed length, to the second road about 850m - depends on Runway End Safety Areas (RESA) deemed necessary. Read somewhere the land dips notably inland though so additional earthworks will ramp costs up significantly.
That just about brings it into the realms of a practical Dash-8-100 commercial operation - with limitations on passenger load/range.
However, who would pay? - is this part of the Cornwall Council portfolio or is it Duchy of Cornwall-owned land - i.e. are we going to ask Prince Charles to stump up the £1.5 to £2m or so costs to just add 300 or so metres to the runway? Who owns/leases those fields to the north and would the local authority move the road at the end to squeeze an extra 60 or so metres more? Could they get European EEC funding for such a prject, or at least a contribution?
To the first road you'll extend to about 800m licensed length, to the second road about 850m - depends on Runway End Safety Areas (RESA) deemed necessary. Read somewhere the land dips notably inland though so additional earthworks will ramp costs up significantly.
That just about brings it into the realms of a practical Dash-8-100 commercial operation - with limitations on passenger load/range.
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Why are we all assuming there's something wrong with the current set-up? Why do we need a longer runway and larger aircraft? The Twin Otters and Islanders have been operating successfully for decades. The Islands are attractive to many because they're small-scale, quirky, remote, exclusive, old-fashioned, untouched by mass tourism, etc., etc.
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interesting numbers from LN-KGL
"We also learn that ISC had 3,260 passengers in January 2011 and 16,603 in August 2011. In other words it's 5 times as many passengers in August "
So 10 people a day in January and maybe 50-60 a day in summer
even a Trislander will be struggling to make money in winter with loadings like that - and I'd guess a Dash 8 would be marginal in summer
"We also learn that ISC had 3,260 passengers in January 2011 and 16,603 in August 2011. In other words it's 5 times as many passengers in August "
So 10 people a day in January and maybe 50-60 a day in summer
even a Trislander will be struggling to make money in winter with loadings like that - and I'd guess a Dash 8 would be marginal in summer
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Hansard
I agree the islands are attractive etc etc - the problem is that providing the air service is not attractive - its pretty marginal and now new kit and/or new bases are required on the mainland
Unless you can find a sugar daddy (e.g the Bearded One who owns Neckar island) or the UK Govt to stump up for a social service, it's going to be back to the boats or a charter operation
I'd have thought that in past times the EU might have come up with some cash for the runway (although the press they get in Cornwall is pretty off-putting TBH)
I agree the islands are attractive etc etc - the problem is that providing the air service is not attractive - its pretty marginal and now new kit and/or new bases are required on the mainland
Unless you can find a sugar daddy (e.g the Bearded One who owns Neckar island) or the UK Govt to stump up for a social service, it's going to be back to the boats or a charter operation
I'd have thought that in past times the EU might have come up with some cash for the runway (although the press they get in Cornwall is pretty off-putting TBH)
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Hansard - both the Twin Otter operation and the S61 helicopter are not cheap on the seat cost front. The Twotters just about stretch to Bristol/Southampton with limitations. Bigger aircraft (facilitated by more runway length) means lower costs, better connectivity further up the country towards London and beyond. I think the French would quite like a connection too.
Of course if the islanders want to keep out the 'riffraff' by maintaining the limitations imposed by having to use small aircraft and limit the volume of tourists, that's fine. I suspect however that there are islanders that wish it wasn't so expensive to escape and island-based businesses that would wish to see a few more visitors on the islands.
Islanders need to debate those pros and cons, then, if it's to be a longer runway, work out where the money comes from and the return on the investment. Again, who would pay if the latter?
Of course if the islanders want to keep out the 'riffraff' by maintaining the limitations imposed by having to use small aircraft and limit the volume of tourists, that's fine. I suspect however that there are islanders that wish it wasn't so expensive to escape and island-based businesses that would wish to see a few more visitors on the islands.
Islanders need to debate those pros and cons, then, if it's to be a longer runway, work out where the money comes from and the return on the investment. Again, who would pay if the latter?