CAMBRIDGE

[sxflyer]

When I looked at those times I thought great, 3x daily to AMS at times broadly similar to KL's regional services, they must have an interline agreement and this could actually work.

Then I saw the evening flight wasn't to AMS, it was a second daily DUB. Then I found out it all starts in just two weeks and my heart sank.

This clearly won't work, DUB doesn't need 2x daily especially when the times aren't great for a business day return. The second AMS is too early, so not much use for business either, though could be redeemed if connections are possible.

I would keep the morning AMS, perhaps keep the morning DUB, then EDI in the afternoon followed by AMS in the evening. Even then it's a gamble.

At least Cityjet has marginally greater brand awareness than Darwin!

[01475]

Those are funny times. I'd assumed they would be using a Dublin based aircraft.

It is all about the connections and marketing though; if they get that right then I'm certain they can be made to work!

Even Manston managed to hold down flights to Amsterdam, and Margate probably doesn't have the huge number of people visiting from all over Europe and the world in relation to a university and a lot of industry that Cambridge has!

AMS appears to be £145.90 return at the weekend.

EasyJet on the same dates easyJet from Stansted was £88 (weekday) / £95 (weekend) for broadly similar times and including a 20kg bag. This is certainly a lot more attractive during the week, but probably about as attractive at the weekend.

Dublin seems to be £158.50 during the week and £97.50 at the weekend. Ryanair are wanting £132 for flights at broadly similar times and with a 15kg bag (v 23kg), so in that case I certainly would be using CityJet!

[Phileas Fogg]

Start off at stupid o'clock of a morning and all wrapped up and home to bed by 8.30pm of an evening ... What's this all about.

0600 departure, 0500 (ish) check-in, live in Cambridge then 0400 wake-up, live an hour outside of Cambridge then 0300 wake up ... How long before the travelling public catch on that it's far more sociable to travel to/from NWI, STN, LTN or BHX?

Agree with others, neither AMS nor DUB has both a morning and evening service so both routes seem doomed to fail.

And presuming that this is a single geriatric turbo-prop aircraft operation I'd like to bet they don't have a sufficient spare parts back-up at Cambridge!

[CelticRambler]

Originally Posted by sxflyer

This clearly won't work, DUB doesn't need 2x daily especially when the times aren't great for a business day return ...

Yet again the obsession with last century's stereotypical business traveller.

First of all, eight hours in Dublin is probably enough for any well-organised Cambridge businessman or woman if they feel the need to get home the same day, but the Dublin conference industry does all it can to keep people there for two, three even four days at a time.

And secondly, for approximately the same length of time as it takes to get from Cambridge to Heathrow, anyone going to the states can aim to save a couple of hours with US pre-clearance at Dublin.

With Amsterdam being proposed at the same time, these services are obviously aimed at passengers going further afield with other carriers. Perfectly sensible, and good luck to both airline and airport.

[sxflyer]

CelticRamber, good point but at present there is no indication connections are being offered. That is not to say it won't happen.

I want to see CBG work, it's a nice little airport. But I don't think my reservations particularly about DUB are unreasonable when it's up against much higher frequency at STN (AMS less so). I can see DUB doing really well when the racing is on, less so at other times.

I would also question whether there is substantial enough last minute business demand to either destination to justify starting in two weeks.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by CelticRambler

Yet again the obsession with last century's stereotypical business traveller.

First of all, eight hours in Dublin is probably enough for any well-organised Cambridge businessman or woman if they feel the need to get home the same day, but the Dublin conference industry does all it can to keep people there for two, three even four days at a time.

And secondly, for approximately the same length of time as it takes to get from Cambridge to Heathrow, anyone going to the states can aim to save a couple of hours with US pre-clearance at Dublin.

With Amsterdam being proposed at the same time, these services are obviously aimed at passengers going further afield with other carriers. Perfectly sensible, and good luck to both airline and airport.

I appreciate (and indeed sympathise with) your sincere desire to overturn the conventions of business travel, but CityJet is not going to be that iconoclast.

Originally Posted by CelticRambler

Yet again the obsession with last century's stereotypical business traveller.

First of all, eight hours in Dublin is probably enough for any well-organised Cambridge businessman or woman if they feel the need to get home the same day, but the Dublin conference industry does all it can to keep people there for two, three even four days at a time.

So you're saying that as a Cambridge business person I should settle for 8 hours in Dublin, as long as they are from 10.35 to 19.10, and that if (heaven forbid) I am trying to fit into someone else's 9-5 schedule it's just the fault of the "Dublin conference industry"? Oddly enough when I look at the prices of flights, for example from Dublin to Heathrow, the flights arriving before 9 tend to be the most expensive. I can't imagine why...

And secondly, for approximately the same length of time as it takes to get from Cambridge to Heathrow, anyone going to the states can aim to save a couple of hours with US pre-clearance at Dublin.

Oddly enough my first thought was the same as yours. Independent Cityjet has negotiated a commercial agreement with Air France, so they must have arranged matters to connect to the Delta transatlantic flights at DUB, right?

Er...no. Arrive into DUB at 10.35, after the 10.10 ATL departure has left, and just in time to get to a window to wave at the 11.00 Delta JFK flight pushing back. And Cityjet doesn't have any interline deal that I know of with Aer Lingus, certainly no codeshare.

You say:

These services are obviously aimed at passengers going further afield with other carriers. Perfectly sensible, and good luck to both airline and airport.

In the case of Amsterdam, yes, you're right. But Dublin? Please explain to me how this is a "sensible" schedule, with no useful connectivity. That's a genuine question, by the way - have I missed something in this fairly miserable "what-can-we-do-in-the-gaps-between-Amsterdam-flights?" timetable?

What puzzles me is that a Cambridge-Dublin service that had an EI code and that operated at sensible times could actually generate some useful connecting traffic. Clearly EI (or rather Stobart Air) is not interested, so Cambridge Airport has decided to shower their leftover planned-for-Darwin marketing support largesse on CityJet. Cardiff, Cambridge,... What's next? Carlisle? Caernarfon?

[onyxcrowle]

Not being familiar with the area other than of course what it is famous for.
But is there enough population and demand to bring in a loco like Ryanair perhaps?.
Just thought that if it was , then it might appeal to the huge student market if it had lots of uk and European destinations.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by onyxcrowle

Not being familiar with the area other than of course what it is famous for.
But is there enough population and demand to bring in a loco like Ryanair perhaps?.
Just thought that if it was , then it might appeal to the huge student market if it had lots of uk and European destinations.

I think you'll find there's lots of LoCo demand. It flies to/from Stansted, conveniently located about 30 minutes away from Cambridge by train, and with lots of UK and European destinations.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Why is the Cardiff operation such a surprise for CityJet? It was a gap left behind when Flybe decided to pull out and passenger numbers suggest that the F50 maybe the correct size against the Q400.

Unlike the Cambridge the flight times tend to cater for the business passenger with leisure routes to Jersey and Paris Orly.

It is a shame that there wasn't a bigger lead time however many passengers that have used the service give it a big thumbs up.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by mathers_wales_uk

Why is the Cardiff operation such a surprise for CityJet? It was a gap left behind when Flybe decided to pull out and passenger numbers suggest that the F50 maybe the correct size against the Q400.

Unlike the Cambridge the flight times tend to cater for the business passenger with leisure routes to Jersey and Paris Orly.

It is a shame that there wasn't a bigger lead time however many passengers that have used the service give it a big thumbs up.

I can't fault the quality of CityJet service - I think the passengers get a very good product. My issue (with the Cardiff routes, and even more so with the Cambridge routes) is whether they can make economic sense for the airline. Personally I don't think they can. (Flybe has a lower cost base than CityJet and a strong brand which can stimulate additional traffic. So while there was a gap in the market, I'm not sure there's a market in the gap.) But we'll see in due course.

[Nextprop]

My issue (with the Cardiff routes, and even more so with the Cambridge routes) is whether they can make economic sense for the airline. Personally I don't think they can.

As I am sure you are aware, in the short term economic sense is not profitability. Cityjet has surplus capacity since cutting back at London City. Therefore in my view, as long as these routes cover their direct operating costs, it makes economic sense for Cityjet to operate them for the time being.

I wish Cityjet the best for this new venture. Cambridge Airport has done well to attract an appropriate operator to fill the void left by Darwin so quickly.

[01475]

Cityjet has surplus capacity since cutting back at London City. Therefore in my view, as long as these routes cover their direct operating costs, it makes economic sense for Cityjet to operate them for the time being.

True - that'll be why these are starting at short notice.

I don't have the slightest doubt that an EI flight to Dublin and a KLM flight to Amsterdam would work; they definitely definitely would.

Whether or not this can work depends on marketing; but I think that if they get it right it can. However that marketing has to say "Fly from Cambridge to Amsterdam, Dublin, and a long list of places", not "Fly from Cambridge to Amsterdam and Dublin".

I think Darwin could have made their flights work if they'd let people know about them and stuck with it for a bit longer; they stopped taking bookings about the same week as they started getting ticketing arrangements in place, and disappeared about the same time as people started to get to know their name.

[Phileas Fogg]

for approximately the same length of time as it takes to get from Cambridge to Heathrow, anyone going to the states can aim to save a couple of hours with US pre-clearance at Dublin.

And precisely how many US routes are served directly from/to DUB compared to LHR?

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg

And precisely how many US routes are served directly from/to DUB compared to LHR?

That'd be 10 non-stop US destinations from Dublin and 23 non-stop US destinations from Heathrow.

Those 10 destinations account for 65% of the US-bound passengers from Heathrow, incidentally.

And your point was?

[Barling Magna]

Cityjet has surplus capacity since cutting back at London City. Therefore in my view, as long as these routes cover their direct operating costs, it makes economic sense for Cityjet to operate them for the time being.

If that is the case Cityjet would have been a good candidate to take on the BFS and EDI flights that EZY have dropped from SEN; there's a proven market for both routes, filling A319s on occasions (just not often enough). The local newspaper and its website have been full of disappointed punters wanting the EDI flights to continue from SEN. Smaller equipment would surely generate high enough yield to be consistently profitable on these routes.

I wonder if SEN management even bothered to contact Cityjet?

[Phileas Fogg]

Cyrano,

And to save the quoted two hours travelling time those 10 US departures would need to be timed to coincide with Cityjet arrivals and departures would they not?

Remind me not to utilise your services for my business's marketing

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg

Cyrano,

And to save the quoted two hours travelling time those 10 US departures would need to be timed to coincide with Cityjet arrivals and departures would they not?

Remind me not to utilise your services for my business's marketing

Phileas,

You were sniping at a perceived lack of transatlantic services from Dublin and that's what I addressed. That's all.

Nowhere have I suggested that the CityJet service connects with those. It doesn't. They don't even interline. The fact that the CityJet service is a total dog doesn't alter the fact that Dublin in general is an interesting transatlantic connecting point for part of the UK market that can't get easily to Heathrow, provided there is a reasonable connecting service (e.g. EI Regional).

Ad hominem not called for. Poor show, sir. I used to have a higher opinion of you.

[Nextprop]

If that is the case Cityjet would have been a good candidate to take on the BFS and EDI flights that EZY have dropped from SEN; there's a proven market for both routes, filling A319s on occasions (just not often enough).

I can't think that Cityjet management are currently feeling too kindly towards SEN and Stobart. The new Stobart Air Antwerp route is spoiling Cityjet's cosy monopoly there.

[CelticRambler]

Originally Posted by Cyrano

So you're saying that as a Cambridge business person I should settle for 8 hours in Dublin, as long as they are from 10.35 to 19.10, and that if (heaven forbid) I am trying to fit into someone else's 9-5 schedule it's just the fault of the "Dublin conference industry"? Oddly enough when I look at the prices of flights, for example from Dublin to Heathrow, the flights arriving before 9 tend to be the most expensive. I can't imagine why...

Because there's no good reason for CityJet to compete for that same segment of the business market. I suspect we move in different "business" circles: in mine there is no nine-to-five schedule anymore for anyone doing business, and that business may well involve a meeting or site visit at 11pm as much as 11am.

If they can break even using a 50-seater twice a day and (possibly?) benefit from off-peak landing charges, why risk trying to grab a piece of someone else's pie? We know that rarely works.

Originally Posted by Cyrano

In the case of Amsterdam, yes, you're right. But Dublin? Please explain to me how this is a "sensible" schedule, with no useful connectivity. That's a genuine question, by the way - have I missed something in this fairly miserable "what-can-we-do-in-the-gaps-between-Amsterdam-flights?" timetable?

As the current incarnation of CityJet is effectively an orphan child, they're hardly in a good position to be negotiating code-shares and operational tie-ups. So propose the route, let passengers make their own decision as to whether they want to rush - or wait - for the direct flights to Philadelphia, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago, New York or Toronto. It will be a lot easier for the airline to bring the time forward in six months time, to improve connectivity, if that's the way passengers use the service, than to push it as a feature right now and then find it doesn't catch on.

[Una Due Tfc]

They can still make the EI flights to YYZ, SFO, and the later BOS, ORD and JFK services, as well as the second UA to EWR and the second DAL to JFK from DUB, probably a few others whose EOBT I can't remember.

Would Cityjet have a way of knowing what percentage of their pax would use these flights without interlining data? Same goes for the countless flights from AMS they could transfer to?

Many of us would crawl through fire to avoid LHR, with pre-clearance in DUB and AMS being such a pleasure to use in comparison, these flights MAY do better than we think......