BAA Board; Isn't it about time at least one of them resigned?
Regarding the snow plan, it is apparent from posts here and elsewhere that operations have been very much on the basis of making-it-up-as-we-are-going-along. Regarding Mathews' statement that they didn't crack on with snow clearance straight away because they thought there might be a bit more to come, words fail me - as they will fail anyone else who has been professionally involved in snow clearance. I guess these people have spent so long focused only on cost reduction they cannot see anything else.
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Currently the BAA web site says
But according to the BBC
I wonder if the BAA has been told that the second runway will be open shortly?
Edit: it is also reported that BAA has refused the help of the army to clear the snow
Tuesday 21 December - updated at 12:30
Heathrow is operating around one third of a normal flight schedule until 06:00 on Thursday 23 December. Please check the live flight information board below which shows the current status of each flight. If the flight status shows ‘contact airline’, your flight will not be operating today.
Heathrow is operating around one third of a normal flight schedule until 06:00 on Thursday 23 December. Please check the live flight information board below which shows the current status of each flight. If the flight status shows ‘contact airline’, your flight will not be operating today.
Prime Minister David Cameron says he is "frustrated" over the lengthy delays to air travel caused by snow at Heathrow Airport during the weekend. He said cabinet had discussed the widespread travel chaos "extensively" on Tuesday, as thousands of passengers remain stranded across the UK.
He said the second runway at Heathrow would be open within hours.
He said the second runway at Heathrow would be open within hours.
Edit: it is also reported that BAA has refused the help of the army to clear the snow
The latest is that the government has offered military assistance to Heathrow - and been turned down.
BBC News - Snow delays: Cameron 'frustrated'
"Transport Secretary Philip Hammond said: "We've said if they need additional manpower, a bit of muscle to clear snow we can provide them with troops and lorries to do that.
"They're telling me at the moment they have all the muscle they need."
We'll gloss over for now the fact that if a situation like this happened in Russia, the military would be mobilised and down there within hours instead of many days.
While squaddies may not have a lot of experience with the kit, I'm sure the Air Force has plenty, and their own bases will have been cleared pronto.
Why did BAA turn the offer down ? Was it just because it wouldn't look good on Mathews' CV ?
BBC News - Snow delays: Cameron 'frustrated'
"Transport Secretary Philip Hammond said: "We've said if they need additional manpower, a bit of muscle to clear snow we can provide them with troops and lorries to do that.
"They're telling me at the moment they have all the muscle they need."
We'll gloss over for now the fact that if a situation like this happened in Russia, the military would be mobilised and down there within hours instead of many days.
While squaddies may not have a lot of experience with the kit, I'm sure the Air Force has plenty, and their own bases will have been cleared pronto.
Why did BAA turn the offer down ? Was it just because it wouldn't look good on Mathews' CV ?
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From the same source
Cleverly put. What he's avoiding saying is that the true picture was actually five inches since Saturday. The second part is simply laughable. This is very British, all the politicians furiously pulling the levers of power only to realise they were connected up years ago and no one has a wiring diagram.
Heathrow has been criticised for the length of time it took to clear tonnes of snow from runways and plane stands after a blizzard on Saturday dumped 5 inches in one hour.
Mr Cameron said: "Even BAA's harshest critics have conceded that given the amount of snow that has fallen, extensive disruption is understandable.
Mr Cameron said: "Even BAA's harshest critics have conceded that given the amount of snow that has fallen, extensive disruption is understandable.
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While squaddies may not have a lot of experience with the kit, I'm sure the Air Force has plenty, and their own bases will have been cleared pronto.
Dear--- Due to adverse weather our runway is closed and if you decided to launch an attack in the next 48 hours we would not be able to respond, so please do not attack us until Friday at the earliest
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BAA Board; Isn't it about time at least one of them resigned?
No, no, no and again no. Don't you people get it? "lessons will be learnt," many "management" meetings will take place, lots of decisions will be made, along with yet another grovelling, going-through-the-motions apology being issued, and things will slowly but surely get back to some sort of normality. Compensation? Resignations? please be serious, these people, (and many like them in the modern day UK) will issue platitude after patronising platitude and promise investment upon investment to ensure that it "doesn't happen again." Wind the clock forward until the next similar event (maybe 12 months time, maybe less,) and f*ck-all will have changed, of that you can be certain. 
If 27L isn't open later today as promised, then "Community Dave" should order the Army in, end of.
If 27L isn't open later today as promised, then "Community Dave" should order the Army in, end of.
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And why should the 'army' (for army read HM Forces) be ordered in to bail out a profit making foreign company? Hitting these people in their profit, dividend and wallet is the only language they understand. All they need to do is visit a cold foreign airport (Helsinki, Moscow, Calgary), look at their snow plan and equipment, and copy it. It is not rocket science, and although it costs money they should be financially compelled to make the investment, because they should be made to reimburse the airlines for all of their delays/cancellations/inconvenience and expense, because the airport operator were unable to achieve what they are required to achieve - keeping the airport operating.
Using an already overworked HM Forces every time a private company fails to make a contingency plan and underinvests is not the answer, it will merely encourage them to continue to underinvest on the basis that the manpower is available to bail them out.
Using an already overworked HM Forces every time a private company fails to make a contingency plan and underinvests is not the answer, it will merely encourage them to continue to underinvest on the basis that the manpower is available to bail them out.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Interesting interview with David Quarmby on the BBC today. He suggested that the LHR snow plan should be revisited by the CAA.
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Hysterical reactions about the Government selling UK infrastructure to debt-strapped Spanish companies rather miss the point - BAA was privatised a generation ago and the then government could not prevent the take-private by Ferrovial in 2006, even though it was indeed obvious at the time that the acquisition was 'extremely highly-leveraged' (ahem) and not neccessarily bringing any technical or operational added-value.
Privatisation itself certainly doesn't neccesarily result in worse performance of infrastructure (for the counter-factual think of massive public sector deficits world-wide inhibiting investment, traditionally woeful mis-management of public sector investment or appalling performance of publicly-owned utilities pre-privatisation in many cases). There are good and bad public and privately-owned airports across Europe. The more relevant point is that extreme failures of operational performance (and balance sheet structuring) could have formed part of regulatory licence conditions but unfortunately BAA's original privatisation effectively over-looked this point (NATS, privatised later, is in a different regulatory position).
And guess what - there is currently a review of airport regulation underway in the UK. It will be interesting to see how this plays out now... but the points earlier are well made as the government could well be caught between an incoherent policy on airport development (particularly runway construction) and demanding better operational performance of transport infrastructure.
Privatisation itself certainly doesn't neccesarily result in worse performance of infrastructure (for the counter-factual think of massive public sector deficits world-wide inhibiting investment, traditionally woeful mis-management of public sector investment or appalling performance of publicly-owned utilities pre-privatisation in many cases). There are good and bad public and privately-owned airports across Europe. The more relevant point is that extreme failures of operational performance (and balance sheet structuring) could have formed part of regulatory licence conditions but unfortunately BAA's original privatisation effectively over-looked this point (NATS, privatised later, is in a different regulatory position).
And guess what - there is currently a review of airport regulation underway in the UK. It will be interesting to see how this plays out now... but the points earlier are well made as the government could well be caught between an incoherent policy on airport development (particularly runway construction) and demanding better operational performance of transport infrastructure.
Perhaps it has been mentioned in the last 5 pages but the reason the Southerly runway has been shut at LHR is because they ran out of de-icing fluid for it and its only opened now because the PM has made 100,000 litres of fluid from military stores available. National embarrassment doesn't begin to describe it.
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Just watch;Millets will open branches in the BAA shopping malls for the next time a wee bit of snow drifts over poor old Eefrow.Get your tents,space blankets,and primus stoves here.100's of thousands stuck.Could make a fortune.
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BAA
As far as I am concerned there is a major factor involved. LHR is run by BAA = Bureau Against Aviation, an outfit which likes to have shopping malls with a runway attached. Its management have very little experience / knowlege of aviation !
I am talking as someone who used to work with them.
I know of an excellent Ops Manager with excellent experience. When he applied for Ops job at BAA was told "you will have to work in security and after 2 years apply for Ops".
I know of a woman who speaks five languages, and who applied for a vacancy at Airport Information Desk - she didn't even get a reply !
Look at the improvements made, and being made at LGW since BAA sold the airport off.
BAA = Bureau Against Aviation
I am talking as someone who used to work with them.
I know of an excellent Ops Manager with excellent experience. When he applied for Ops job at BAA was told "you will have to work in security and after 2 years apply for Ops".
I know of a woman who speaks five languages, and who applied for a vacancy at Airport Information Desk - she didn't even get a reply !
Look at the improvements made, and being made at LGW since BAA sold the airport off.
BAA = Bureau Against Aviation
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Any views on the fact that Urea can no longer be used for environmental reasons due to EU laws- I think for the last couple of years?
This used to melt ice almost instantly and was used fo many years at UK airports. I'm sure we wouldn't be in this pickle at LHR and other UK/EU airports if it still could be used. I'm told the alternatives are not as effective.
Suzeman
This used to melt ice almost instantly and was used fo many years at UK airports. I'm sure we wouldn't be in this pickle at LHR and other UK/EU airports if it still could be used. I'm told the alternatives are not as effective.
Suzeman
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411A Don'y worry, there's more snow on the way....there is a huge storm over California at the moment, that has so far dropped 12 feet of snow on the SierraNavada mountains, and...the jet stream is all lined up to bring this monster to the UK in about 10 days, perhaps less.
Better get more shovels...
Better get more shovels...
The jet stream is currently blocked (i.e. deflected) which is allowing Arctic conditions to arrive from the North. Maybe you should come over to Euroland for proper Met training?
Please don't think the RAF have any spare snow clearing capability - the only places that have it are the QRA stations and MEDAs - the rest have to wait for it to thaw or shovel it by hand.
All capability ditched several years ago to save money.
This country has gone to the dogs.
Back to LHR, aside from the lack of rapid snow clearing capability, the treatment of passengers has been at best shameful. Who in the world would want to use the UK as a hub when our largest and most prestigious airport consists of a marquee, kids and babies outside in the cold, people of all ages and backgrounds camping on the floor for 4 days and the Sally Army giving out tea and space blankets.
It doesn't need a board resignation, it needs a public inquiry, the whole business is a disgrace on this once great industry.
All capability ditched several years ago to save money.
This country has gone to the dogs.
Back to LHR, aside from the lack of rapid snow clearing capability, the treatment of passengers has been at best shameful. Who in the world would want to use the UK as a hub when our largest and most prestigious airport consists of a marquee, kids and babies outside in the cold, people of all ages and backgrounds camping on the floor for 4 days and the Sally Army giving out tea and space blankets.
It doesn't need a board resignation, it needs a public inquiry, the whole business is a disgrace on this once great industry.
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Matthews is quoted as saying he had not seen snow like it ever before at Heathrow, not in his lifetime.
According to the Met Office there was around 3.5inches snow at Heathrow on Saturday. He must have lived a very sheltered life then.
I live 5 miles west of the airport and can confirm that we too had around 3-4 inches of snow on saturday.
Hello, on 2 February 2009, we woke to find 8inches of snow had fallen overnight, including I assume at Heathrow. Perhaps Mr Matthews was abroad at the time. Does anyone recall what happened to the flights on that day?
Presumably no one is responsible for telling anyone else what is going on and that includes the passengers?
According to the Met Office there was around 3.5inches snow at Heathrow on Saturday. He must have lived a very sheltered life then.
I live 5 miles west of the airport and can confirm that we too had around 3-4 inches of snow on saturday.
Hello, on 2 February 2009, we woke to find 8inches of snow had fallen overnight, including I assume at Heathrow. Perhaps Mr Matthews was abroad at the time. Does anyone recall what happened to the flights on that day?
Presumably no one is responsible for telling anyone else what is going on and that includes the passengers?
Heathrow Snow problems
Am I right to understand, that David Cameron offered the Heathrow management the use of Military personnel to assist with snow clearing & other associated tasks?
I also understand, that this offer was declined & rejected by Heathrow management.
What I can't understand, is that Mr Cameron actually made an offer, would it not have been better, to send the troops in anyway, whether Heathrow management liked it or not?
I also understand, that this offer was declined & rejected by Heathrow management.
What I can't understand, is that Mr Cameron actually made an offer, would it not have been better, to send the troops in anyway, whether Heathrow management liked it or not?
Monday 2 Feb 2009, Heathrow had 399 movements (normally around 1,250, so about a third). 9L closed until 1800. 9R operated throughout apart from an interval 0830-1030. I see from my own e-mails on that day that it snowed in central London all day, not just for a few hours. In fact I took photographs of my own garden, I see it was far worse than this recent one. Next day, 3 Feb, Heathrow had 1,120 movements, so getting back to normal.
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A BBC report sheds some more light on what is happening at LHR and why LGW is doing better.
Not surprising that with twice the size and half the equipment that LHR can not cope.
Mind you BAA have found one supporter in the form of 'Aviation Expert'? David Learmount,
Planet Earth to David Learmont
Snow is snow I can assure him that the white stuff that I have been shovelling from my driveway is the same as that that fell on LHR just that I had over a foot to clear as did NYO and ARN
Earlier this year, BAA published an investment programme of £5.1bn for Heathrow over five years, of which £500,000 was invested in snow and ice-fighting technology this year, with another £3m planned for the next four years.
By comparison, reports suggest that Gatwick Airport, which is half the size of Heathrow and was sold by BAA last year, spent £1m on snow and ice this year and plans to spend another £7m next year.
Heathrow's "snow fleet" is made up of 69 vehicles; Gatwick's is a reported 150.
By comparison, reports suggest that Gatwick Airport, which is half the size of Heathrow and was sold by BAA last year, spent £1m on snow and ice this year and plans to spend another £7m next year.
Heathrow's "snow fleet" is made up of 69 vehicles; Gatwick's is a reported 150.
Mind you BAA have found one supporter in the form of 'Aviation Expert'? David Learmount,
"Even if we did throw dollars at it, our weather is different to the weather that the Scandinavians get. The equipment that they use would not win against the kind of weather that we had,"
Snow is snow I can assure him that the white stuff that I have been shovelling from my driveway is the same as that that fell on LHR just that I had over a foot to clear as did NYO and ARN