MANCHESTER - 8
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EK A380 Manchester PR Release
I note that 2 days on from the 1st A380 EK service, MAG have still not issued any form of press release to coincide with this big event. In fact, the last release was 18 Aug saying they were A380 ready.
They are missing a trick if they cannot make the most of this PR dream opportunity.....
They are missing a trick if they cannot make the most of this PR dream opportunity.....
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Do they need to make a press release? It was well covered by most UK news groups and watched by thousands of people. All worked effortlessly in front of the media/spectators so what else would MAN need to say?
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I agree with much of this, just wonder why they didn't go for the MAN-HKG direct on the A340 without the Moscow stop. I think the cargo on the A340-300 would be restricted perhaps so not ideal? Predating the arrival of the B77W as well......now there's a thought! I couldn't see QANTAS back but Cathay seem a better candidate.
The onworld hub in question is LHR but they are a decade away from bring T3 up to T5 standards to have good connections with UK domestics from T3. Ah Britain....we're quite rubbish at this sort of thing you know!
The onworld hub in question is LHR but they are a decade away from bring T3 up to T5 standards to have good connections with UK domestics from T3. Ah Britain....we're quite rubbish at this sort of thing you know!
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I agree with Skipiness, the B77W for Cathay would be ideal for MAN.
Size wise, yes its going to take a lot for pax to fill it up, but the cargo underneath will help absorb any slack for the most part.
Maybe bringing the 2 class B77W is what CX are waiting for ex-MAN.
Also agree that aside from our annual charter on the QF2, we will never see QF back at MAN, their chance has long gone in my opinion.
Size wise, yes its going to take a lot for pax to fill it up, but the cargo underneath will help absorb any slack for the most part.
Maybe bringing the 2 class B77W is what CX are waiting for ex-MAN.
Also agree that aside from our annual charter on the QF2, we will never see QF back at MAN, their chance has long gone in my opinion.
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A momentous week in the history of MAN draws to a close, with much reason to be optimistic and to feel that the we are also nearing the end of what has been a difficult few years in the history of this special 'second city' airport.
We have to put BA behind us, their position is understandable, and the LHR/MAD hubbing makes sense for them. It is right that they should not be allowed to block those that do wish to generate new direct services from anywhere else in the UK, though.
MAN's long-haul future lies in being a spoke off as many distant hubs as it can, and there are a good few out there that surely hold potential, both in the east and in the Americas. The long-delayed arrival of the B787 will hopefully see the introduction of some far flung exotic charters too.
The future is bright, and not just Orange.
R.I.P. Gordon Sweetapple - Airport Director in the 1970s -1981. Died 26/08/2010.
We have to put BA behind us, their position is understandable, and the LHR/MAD hubbing makes sense for them. It is right that they should not be allowed to block those that do wish to generate new direct services from anywhere else in the UK, though.
MAN's long-haul future lies in being a spoke off as many distant hubs as it can, and there are a good few out there that surely hold potential, both in the east and in the Americas. The long-delayed arrival of the B787 will hopefully see the introduction of some far flung exotic charters too.
The future is bright, and not just Orange.
R.I.P. Gordon Sweetapple - Airport Director in the 1970s -1981. Died 26/08/2010.
Last edited by roverman; 3rd Sep 2010 at 17:41.
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A Good Week
A good week for Manchester with Emirates' start with the A380, after the media festival for the first day, everything has gone very smoothly. So very well done to the MA Ops team. The press coverage was great, with Emirates cleverly promoting the service and that many crew members were from the local area.
Almost un-noticed SQ restarted a daily Singapore service.
All in all pretty good for a 'regional' airport, or as Roverman put it, 'the Second City'. Which Manchester isn't. It's a confident and innovative city that really believes that the UK doesn't just revolve around London.
Gordon Sweetapple, who died recently, would have seen a very different airport, one that is globally connected, rather than just flying holiday-makers to Spain. But Gordon was an important part of the Airport's history. RIP.
One more thing ... apparently there's an anti-aviation protest arranged for tomorrow, a joint event with LCY groups protesting about domestic flights. There's no flights between MAN and LCY. About 30 protestors expected tomorrow for a tea-party. Apparently 7,000 turned up to see the A380 on Wednesday.
A good week.
Almost un-noticed SQ restarted a daily Singapore service.
All in all pretty good for a 'regional' airport, or as Roverman put it, 'the Second City'. Which Manchester isn't. It's a confident and innovative city that really believes that the UK doesn't just revolve around London.
Gordon Sweetapple, who died recently, would have seen a very different airport, one that is globally connected, rather than just flying holiday-makers to Spain. But Gordon was an important part of the Airport's history. RIP.
One more thing ... apparently there's an anti-aviation protest arranged for tomorrow, a joint event with LCY groups protesting about domestic flights. There's no flights between MAN and LCY. About 30 protestors expected tomorrow for a tea-party. Apparently 7,000 turned up to see the A380 on Wednesday.
A good week.
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What I know of CX pax flt ex MAN.
The plan was HKG-SVO-MAN vv, it was less than a month before the launch, and a lot of things were in place ready for it, then BMI objected, my understanding was/is BMI had the rites and for whatever reason (probably political) had not been aloud to fly it and therefore objected to someone else being allowed to fly said route, hence CX never got off the ground.
I understand that the MAN service has been looked at again and there is a possible return of a service, this if it happens will not be in the next couple of years. As I am led to believe, whoever makes these decisions, as the right equipment is not currently available at CX to fly this route at a profit. 2 class, right capacity etc etc.
I and everyone I talk to believes there is a market for a flt at MAN, it has to be timed correctly, the flts via AMS/ZRH/CDG/FRA were never a good time, MAN used to loose a lot of business class to LHR just so they could get an evening flt.
I'm staggered to read the figures for those that flew to HKG from MAN via LHR, if you can't make a profit out of that then I don't know what.
Cargo flts have been reduced fom 7 to 6 a week, although that will go back up to 7 in the winter, this is so a round the world freighter service can operate HKG-ANC-ORD-SPL-HKG. Although 2 or 3 years ago it was 13 a week with KA operating as well!
Most of these decisions are made in HKG, and once made you will find it very difficult to get these people to change, it's a cultural thing, something to do with lose of face.
I would like to see a CX pax flt return to MAN, there has to be the market there for it, just can't see it happening anytime soon, maybe when the A350 arrives!
The plan was HKG-SVO-MAN vv, it was less than a month before the launch, and a lot of things were in place ready for it, then BMI objected, my understanding was/is BMI had the rites and for whatever reason (probably political) had not been aloud to fly it and therefore objected to someone else being allowed to fly said route, hence CX never got off the ground.
I understand that the MAN service has been looked at again and there is a possible return of a service, this if it happens will not be in the next couple of years. As I am led to believe, whoever makes these decisions, as the right equipment is not currently available at CX to fly this route at a profit. 2 class, right capacity etc etc.
I and everyone I talk to believes there is a market for a flt at MAN, it has to be timed correctly, the flts via AMS/ZRH/CDG/FRA were never a good time, MAN used to loose a lot of business class to LHR just so they could get an evening flt.
I'm staggered to read the figures for those that flew to HKG from MAN via LHR, if you can't make a profit out of that then I don't know what.
Cargo flts have been reduced fom 7 to 6 a week, although that will go back up to 7 in the winter, this is so a round the world freighter service can operate HKG-ANC-ORD-SPL-HKG. Although 2 or 3 years ago it was 13 a week with KA operating as well!
Most of these decisions are made in HKG, and once made you will find it very difficult to get these people to change, it's a cultural thing, something to do with lose of face.
I would like to see a CX pax flt return to MAN, there has to be the market there for it, just can't see it happening anytime soon, maybe when the A350 arrives!
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I don't want to open that whole Manchester vs. Birmingham 'second city' thing. There's no clear definition and it's a pointless debate. My context was aviation, and in aviation terms MAN is the second city for the UK.
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One benefit of being a “Grumpy Old Man” is being around long enough to know something of the history of MAN and its relationship with BA. I am loathe to bring this often repeated subject up yet again but the history may explain the resentment to them at Manchester, and also why MAN never reached full potential !
After WW2 the Air Ministry designated two airports in the UK as "gateway airports", Heathrow and Prestwick. Prestwick was chosen because it had the longest runway of any civil airport outside London and because there was still significant traffic between the US and UK, and little traffic to the rest of the world , at that time it “seemed” a natural location for an international gateway.
Fast forward to the 1970s and by now Manchester had established itself as a major airport, Pan Am TWA, Seaboard, Qantas amongst many many others all applied and failed to obtain rights to serve Manchester, quite simply the air agreements between countries didn't allow it. Heathrow became fully established as the UK's ONLY true major international gateway airport, its an undeniable fact that its success today is built on the monopoly it enjoyed at that time !
Heathrow's position was strengthened even more with the merger of BOAC and BEA in the 1970s, this was possibly the start of the "hub concept" certainly in the UK, with the introduction of "The Shuttle".
This provided fast hourly connections from Manchester Glasgow, Belfast , and Edinburgh with very few cancellations and a "guaranteed seat", there was even provision for a back up aircraft on standby if the 1st aircraft was full, I only mention this in the context of the frequent cancellations which occur today !
Now enter Gil Thompson (in the early eighties), something of a visionary regarding MAN and an ex-BA man who knew the politics relating to those long standing air agreements which had thus far prevented Manchester from becoming a major international gateway. Using the same calculations quoted in recent postings on this thread he demonstrated to airlines such as SIA and AA that a significant % of traffic was being moved via Heathrow on "the shuttle", to destinations that could be viable served with a direct service.
Incredibly the air agreements written 30 years prior were "still" in force and BA continued to use these very effectively to block any expansion at Manchester for many years, understandably they simply did not wish to dilute their Heathrow shuttle traffic. BA lobbied the Thatcher government of the day by suggesting that airlines were of course free to use PWK (which of course was no threat), but the rules did not permit flights to MAN. It was of course complete and utter nonsense but it worked. Airlines which were becoming constrained by frequency at Heathrow now looked at Manchester but were continually rebuffed.
Gil Thompson backed by a massive publicity campaign finally managed to convince the government that this was a crazy situation and eventually SIA and AA were allowed in, that was in 1986. That "should" have been the start of major expansion but the dreaded agreements continued to be used as obstacles to Manchester's growth !
Sadly the angst with BA continued to fester as airlines which had been sold the concept of viable 3/4 a week service using the same calculations quoted on this thread suddenly found themselves with competition. Inexplicably BA which had long argued and fought to prevent an expansion outside the South East announced there own commitment to Manchester..blah blah blah".
Sadly in most cases this commitment only went as far as starting on routes already established by "other" airlines where there was simply not the traffic to support two carriers. In addition other routes where BA did not compete but were seemingly successful, simply evaporated as BA entered into more and more code share or partnership agreements.
This hopefully will explain once and for all the long standing antagonism toward BA, I suspect it will never disappear, but as others have said time, it really is time to move on !
I must confess I was sceptical that we would ever see an A380 in Manchester, but there is talk this may even be increased to 3 or even more, bring it on ! Many airlines have tried and failed at MAN even though they "appear" to carry full loads, it is a conundrum.
Manchester is not "A Heathrow" but it is much much more than just a regional airport. Maybe fast and frequent service to Dubai is the answer and might just be Manchester's salvation for renewed growth ?
As the CEO is from the North West it may be that he more than most, fully understands Manchester's potential and what might turn out to be a sustainable formulae for success !
After WW2 the Air Ministry designated two airports in the UK as "gateway airports", Heathrow and Prestwick. Prestwick was chosen because it had the longest runway of any civil airport outside London and because there was still significant traffic between the US and UK, and little traffic to the rest of the world , at that time it “seemed” a natural location for an international gateway.
Fast forward to the 1970s and by now Manchester had established itself as a major airport, Pan Am TWA, Seaboard, Qantas amongst many many others all applied and failed to obtain rights to serve Manchester, quite simply the air agreements between countries didn't allow it. Heathrow became fully established as the UK's ONLY true major international gateway airport, its an undeniable fact that its success today is built on the monopoly it enjoyed at that time !
Heathrow's position was strengthened even more with the merger of BOAC and BEA in the 1970s, this was possibly the start of the "hub concept" certainly in the UK, with the introduction of "The Shuttle".
This provided fast hourly connections from Manchester Glasgow, Belfast , and Edinburgh with very few cancellations and a "guaranteed seat", there was even provision for a back up aircraft on standby if the 1st aircraft was full, I only mention this in the context of the frequent cancellations which occur today !
Now enter Gil Thompson (in the early eighties), something of a visionary regarding MAN and an ex-BA man who knew the politics relating to those long standing air agreements which had thus far prevented Manchester from becoming a major international gateway. Using the same calculations quoted in recent postings on this thread he demonstrated to airlines such as SIA and AA that a significant % of traffic was being moved via Heathrow on "the shuttle", to destinations that could be viable served with a direct service.
Incredibly the air agreements written 30 years prior were "still" in force and BA continued to use these very effectively to block any expansion at Manchester for many years, understandably they simply did not wish to dilute their Heathrow shuttle traffic. BA lobbied the Thatcher government of the day by suggesting that airlines were of course free to use PWK (which of course was no threat), but the rules did not permit flights to MAN. It was of course complete and utter nonsense but it worked. Airlines which were becoming constrained by frequency at Heathrow now looked at Manchester but were continually rebuffed.
Gil Thompson backed by a massive publicity campaign finally managed to convince the government that this was a crazy situation and eventually SIA and AA were allowed in, that was in 1986. That "should" have been the start of major expansion but the dreaded agreements continued to be used as obstacles to Manchester's growth !
Sadly the angst with BA continued to fester as airlines which had been sold the concept of viable 3/4 a week service using the same calculations quoted on this thread suddenly found themselves with competition. Inexplicably BA which had long argued and fought to prevent an expansion outside the South East announced there own commitment to Manchester..blah blah blah".
Sadly in most cases this commitment only went as far as starting on routes already established by "other" airlines where there was simply not the traffic to support two carriers. In addition other routes where BA did not compete but were seemingly successful, simply evaporated as BA entered into more and more code share or partnership agreements.
This hopefully will explain once and for all the long standing antagonism toward BA, I suspect it will never disappear, but as others have said time, it really is time to move on !
I must confess I was sceptical that we would ever see an A380 in Manchester, but there is talk this may even be increased to 3 or even more, bring it on ! Many airlines have tried and failed at MAN even though they "appear" to carry full loads, it is a conundrum.
Manchester is not "A Heathrow" but it is much much more than just a regional airport. Maybe fast and frequent service to Dubai is the answer and might just be Manchester's salvation for renewed growth ?
As the CEO is from the North West it may be that he more than most, fully understands Manchester's potential and what might turn out to be a sustainable formulae for success !
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Bagso
Well said that man, history tells it all, when I think back to my first days in travel
Manchester didn`t even have 1 Lufthansa flight a day let alone what we have today
as for long haul it was JFK/YYZ via PWK with BOAC which seemed a very half hearted service even in those days
Ian B
Well said that man, history tells it all, when I think back to my first days in travel
Manchester didn`t even have 1 Lufthansa flight a day let alone what we have today
as for long haul it was JFK/YYZ via PWK with BOAC which seemed a very half hearted service even in those days
Ian B
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So how many weekly flights do LH have out of MAN nowadays? I know they serve 5 destinations from MAN, very good compared to AF/KL & SK. I assume MAN is LH's biggest market in the UK after LHR? They must be pleased with MAN?
Also, anyone know of any trip reports from the first A380 EK flight? I've had a search for them and looked on the trip reports forum on airlines.net, but can't seem to find any, thought they would of been some posted by now?! Maybe it's just me being impatient, I'm sure getting a trip report togeather does take a bit of time.
Also, anyone know of any trip reports from the first A380 EK flight? I've had a search for them and looked on the trip reports forum on airlines.net, but can't seem to find any, thought they would of been some posted by now?! Maybe it's just me being impatient, I'm sure getting a trip report togeather does take a bit of time.
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LH = 4 daily to FRA, 3 daily to MUC, 16 or 17 weekly to DUS (going to 21?), 17 or 18 weekly to HAM and 6 weekly to STR. Therefore, about 88 weekly flights.
>>>> have read a business article from the 8th March 2010 stating 87 weekly flights going to 92 with the Stuttgart services.
Will have to dig around for the number passengers they carry but I believe it's in excess of 500,000 a year.
>>>> And that article says 2009 saw them have 540,000 passengers which was down 5% but with passenger increases from October 2008. Throwaway comment: "Manchester is our second strongest airport out of London so it was the next logical step to increase the number of destinations. At the moment Stuttgart is only serviced out of London."
>>>> have read a business article from the 8th March 2010 stating 87 weekly flights going to 92 with the Stuttgart services.
Will have to dig around for the number passengers they carry but I believe it's in excess of 500,000 a year.
>>>> And that article says 2009 saw them have 540,000 passengers which was down 5% but with passenger increases from October 2008. Throwaway comment: "Manchester is our second strongest airport out of London so it was the next logical step to increase the number of destinations. At the moment Stuttgart is only serviced out of London."
Last edited by Ringwayman; 4th Sep 2010 at 22:50. Reason: found the info out
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This provided fast hourly connections from Manchester Glasgow, Belfast , and Edinburgh with very few cancellations and a "guaranteed seat", there was even provision for a back up aircraft on standby if the 1st aircraft was full
They returned from Oz,having an "engine problem" in "The Gulf".
BA at MAN hadn't got a clue about this prob [or so they said].
Working in ATC I got hold of BA at LHR and found the prob. When I told the peeps waiting for Oz pax [40+] the griff, the BA staff roundly berated me [even more so when I gave out (as volunteered by LHR BA staff) the LHR phone no.
The end of it was, they "missed" a Shuttle....none existant, and were put on the "first available" Shuttle, the last LHR-MAN of the day
We were fortunate, because I had "some" inside info.
Outlaws due to arrive....0930. ATA 2230
AFAIK, Eastern Airways were the only Airline to offer a guaranteed backup a/c. If BA did, I cannot remember one at Manch
AFAIK, Eastern Airways were the only Airline to offer a guaranteed backup a/c. If BA did, I cannot remember one at Manch
but in practice ...
I think the "back up" applied only to the LHR end, unless anyone knows better ?
But I do recall from my days at LHR that even that didn't always apply.
Every Christmas the shuttles (and particularly the BFS) ran out of a/c and/or crew by early afternoon .. with long queues of pax building up .. and many, many pax gurmbling about "where were there back-up's promised".
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Can only recall a standby aircraft once being made available at MAN in my shuttle days. With the Trident full, a One-Eleven was put into service.